When You See the Abomination of Desolation Stand in the Holy Place

[marks]

marks said: ↑

I'm not following . . .

You know Paul and those with him were also firstfruits. Jesus is the firstfruit also. Context is king.

Much love!

Jesus is King, and I agree Paul was among the first to be redeemed( First fruits)

Romans 16:5 KJV
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:20 KJV
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 16:15 KJV
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints)

Revelation 14:4 KJV
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

And I'm going to take Paul off of this list, I was thinking of this passage, but that's not what it says:

Ephesians 1:12 KJV
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

But these others, they speak of firstfruits, but each must be examined in its own context, which shows that each speaks of something different.

The firstfuits from the dead. An individual of a region, and a small group from that same region. And a group at the end of the age.

maybe that is the conflict we have, you say your King is the context you possess?

what your referring to as ridicule is correction,

What was your correction exactly?

You wrote that Jesus is King, and then followed that up with claiming I said context was my King. Correction?

What is meant by the maxim, "Context is King"?

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

I don't know what you mean here. Separate how? What is your "continuum of prophecy"? What does that mean?

Much love!

I am surprised at your question because you to use the following expression in post #112....

'Just for the record, I think a temple will be built in Jerusalem following the Gog/Magog destruction, at which time the church is raptured, during the 70th week of Daniel'.

Your question indicates you have separated the '70th' week from the rest of the body of the prophecy therefore disrupting the time continuum of the whole prophecy. You have applied a interpretation inconsistent with its purpose.

If you do not understand what I mean, it also indicates you are either not familiar with the Prophecy or you are parroting a popular interpretation.

 

[Ziggy]

So when it comes to anti-christs...
I think we may need to keep our eyes on President Xi.
They just celebrated 100 years for something.. right in the middle of Tianemen Square.
And He said he was going to reclaim Taiwan.

War is in the air... can you smell it?
I can

Xi Jinping whitewashes China's record of human rights abuses in speech at site of Tiananmen Square massacre
Xi Jinping whitewashes China's record of human rights abuses in speech at site of Tiananmen Square massacre
[email protected] (John Haltiwanger) 4 hrs ago

In an incendiary speech marking the 100th anniversary of the founding of China's Communist Party, Chinese leader Xi Jinping on Thursday portrayed China as an innocent player on the global stage while issuing a grave warning against bullying his country.

"The Chinese people will never allow foreign forces to bully, oppress or enslave us," he said. "Whoever nurses delusions of doing that will crack their heads and spill blood on a Great Wall of steel built from the flesh and blood of 1.4 billion Chinese."

"We will not accept sanctimonious preaching from those who feel they have the right to lecture us," Xi said. "We have never bullied, oppressed, or subjugated the people of any other country, and we never will."


Question:
What if China set up their own portrait on the walls of Jerusalem?
Would that be an abomination of desolation?

thinking... LOUDLY...
HUGS

 

[marks]

Your question indicates you have separated the '70th' week from the rest of the body of the prophecy therefore disrupting the time continuum of the whole prophecy. You have applied a interpretation inconsistent with its purpose.

OK, so you are referring to the idea that the 70th week must be contiguous to the 69th week, is that right?

Forgive me for asking, it's just that I've been on forums discussing prophecy for so long I've come to see people view things in so many different ways, and with all sorts of layers.

I make it a point to try to understand other people's views, and I've done this a lot.

That's one reason why I appreciate so much one such as yourself. We can discuss things over which we disagree, without it turning mean. You don't seem to have an issue with such abrasiveness as I have, so that's good! I learn different ways to look at things.

But that's it. I've spent decades actively learning different ways to understand Scripture, so I need to ask a lot of questions sometimes to make sure I'm understanding you, and not filling in with something I've heard somewhere else.

I know when people do that with me it sometimes seems impossible to untangle!

OK, with that being said, there are other examples of prophecies being fulfilled with gaps in the timeline that don't really appear in the text. The destruction of Tyre comes to mind, Nebuchadnezzer and Alexander. Isaiah 60, favor, and veangence. There are clues in some of these, like Ezekiel and Tyre.

Daniel 9:26-27 KJV
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This says, "after the the 62 weeks shall Messiah be cut off", killed. first 7 weeks, then 62 weeks, then AFTER the 62 weeks. Not in the 70th week, but after the 62 weeks.

AFTER the 62 weeks, Messiah is cut off, and the city and santuary are destroyed. One more week is then named, in which at the middle of the week, he stops the sacrifice and oblation.

The plainest reading of it is that there are 7 weeks, then there are 62 weeks, then the people of the coming prince destroy the city and sanctuary, then there is one more week.

I'm not saying it has to be that way. I'm saying this is the simplest plainest reading to me. I don't see any problems with it, It seems to harmonize with my other understanding of this topic, I don't see any evidence to the contrary.

I think perhaps the difference in our understandings may center in the purpose, which I think is to annoint Jesus to His throne in the Kingdom, in Jerusalem, at the beginning of the millennium.

Daniel 9:24 KJV
24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Ezekiel 37:22-28 KJV
22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24) And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25) And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27) My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28) And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

They asked about the end and the Second Coming. That is the answer Jesus gave. The end and Second Coming are still future.

Or was it the end of the age Jesus was talking about as in the temple age and His coming in judgement?

 

[Waiting on him]

Or was it the end of the age Jesus was talking about as in the temple age and His coming in judgement?

I believe it’s some form of an associative disorder, most Christians today see themselves as first century Jews.

 

[Waiting on him]

 

[marks]

I believe it’s some form of an associative disorder, most Christians today see themselves as first century Jews.

If someone disagrees with you, it means they are mentally ill?

Right-o!

 

[Marty fox]

I believe it’s some form of an associative disorder, most Christians today see themselves as first century Jews.

Yes the church today always seam to think it’s about them

 

[Waiting on him]

If someone disagrees with you, it means they are mentally ill?

Right-o!

Not at all, maybe you are a first century Jew, they were awaiting a Messiah also. Their knowledge was also king.

 

[quietthinker]

OK, so you are referring to the idea that the 70th week must be contiguous to the 69th week, is that right?

Forgive me for asking, it's just that I've been on forums discussing prophecy for so long I've come to see people view things in so many different ways, and with all sorts of layers.

I make it a point to try to understand other people's views, and I've done this a lot.

That's one reason why I appreciate so much one such as yourself. We can discuss things over which we disagree, without it turning mean. You don't seem to have an issue with such abrasiveness as I have, so that's good! I learn different ways to look at things.

But that's it. I've spent decades actively learning different ways to understand Scripture, so I need to ask a lot of questions sometimes to make sure I'm understanding you, and not filling in with something I've heard somewhere else.

I know when people do that with me it sometimes seems impossible to untangle!

OK, with that being said, there are other examples of prophecies being fulfilled with gaps in the timeline that don't really appear in the text. The destruction of Tyre comes to mind, Nebuchadnezzer and Alexander. Isaiah 60, favor, and veangence. There are clues in some of these, like Ezekiel and Tyre.

Daniel 9:26-27 KJV
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This says, "after the the 62 weeks shall Messiah be cut off", killed. first 7 weeks, then 62 weeks, then AFTER the 62 weeks. Not in the 70th week, but after the 62 weeks.

AFTER the 62 weeks, Messiah is cut off, and the city and santuary are destroyed. One more week is then named, in which at the middle of the week, he stops the sacrifice and oblation.

The plainest reading of it is that there are 7 weeks, then there are 62 weeks, then the people of the coming prince destroy the city and sanctuary, then there is one more week.

I'm not saying it has to be that way. I'm saying this is the simplest plainest reading to me. I don't see any problems with it, It seems to harmonize with my other understanding of this topic, I don't see any evidence to the contrary.

I think perhaps the difference in our understandings may center in the purpose, which I think is to annoint Jesus to His throne in the Kingdom, in Jerusalem, at the beginning of the millennium.

Daniel 9:24 KJV
24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Ezekiel 37:22-28 KJV
22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24) And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25) And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27) My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28) And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Much love!

Consider the chart below, marks.

Daniel is praying for his people. Gabriel arrives mid prayer and tells him his peoples days are numbered and goes through the process of breaking the time period given, down.

The time given is 70 weeks of years ie, 490 literal years. This period starts with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem after it was destroyed by the Babylonians. A starting point is identified....we know it as 457BC.

70 weeks of years into the future (490 years) from 457BC we arrive at AD34....this is when Stephan was stoned. The Jews had rejected their Messiah and now they have rejected his people. From hence forth the Message went to the Gentiles.

National Israel's status as favoured nation had expired....This is what 'determined' means in the angels opening; '70 weeks are determined upon your people'

The commission now to share God's Grace is given to all who embrace the Gospel message...jews and gentiles alike

There is no separating of a 7 year (1 week) period in the continuum of 490 years (70 weeks). This prophecy is an unbroken time line.

 

[marks]

National Israel's status as favoured nation had expired....This is what 'determined' means in the angels opening; '70 weeks are determined upon your people'

I've got go, once again . . . I'll need to look back over this more closely, something that caught my attention was this.

Jeremiah 31:33-37 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The greater light to rule the day, the lesser light to rule the night, and so long as they do, Israel's children will remain a nation before God. He will not cast them off.

This is in context of their full regeneration when that covenant is fulfilled. I think we can know from other places that is when Jesus returns.

Notice that God just says, I will do this, I will put My law in them. This isn't conditional, and as surety, we have the sun and moon.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

I've got go, once again . . . I'll need to look back over this more closely, something that caught my attention was this.

Jeremiah 31:33-37 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The greater light to rule the day, the lesser light to rule the night, and so long as they do, Israel's children will remain a nation before God. He will not cast them off.

This is in context of their full regeneration when that covenant is fulfilled. I think we can know from other places that is when Jesus returns.

Notice that God just says, I will do this, I will put My law in them. This isn't conditional, and as surety, we have the sun and moon.

Much love!

Israel in the true sense are God's people...he will not cast them off.....people globally from every age and culture.
Paul goes to lengths to explain that being a Jew in the real sense (Israel) has not got to do with physical circumcision or being a member of a particular ethnicity (nation)
The references you have quoted in Jeremiah are speaking of this.

 

[Timtofly]

Is that so?

You didn't quote any Scriptures, are you thinking of these?

Here, Jesus addresses this:

Matthew 22:29-30 KJV
29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Some key points are these. They "neither marry, nor are given in marriage". This is a comment on their activity, and not their capability. And the angels specified are the angels of God in heaven. Any thoughts on why the need to specify?

Mark 12:25 KJV
25) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Luke gives us just a little bit more:

Luke 20:34-36 KJV
34) And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35) But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Again, Jesus is referring to behavior and not capability. However, He does follow up that statement with one about capability, Neither can they die anymore, having been resurrected.

They will not marry, and they cannot die. That's what's being said here.

There is no statement concerning having children, or the ability to reproduce.

Question . . . will your resurrection body be missing parts which you now have?

The only thing said as explanation for these statements, that in the next world they won't marry is that they will live forever. So there will be no need to reproduce, so we won't be doing that.

Much love!

euphemism

Genesis 2:23-25

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not following . . .

You know Paul and those with him were also firstfruits. Jesus is the firstfruit also. Context is king.

Much love!

The 144k are firstfruits for the Millennium kingdom on earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Which creation are you referring to?

The very beginning Creation. No other creation before it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Apples and oranges.

okay. It makes no difference then. As you said apples to oranges. I do consider ‘let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.’

 

[Waiting on him]

The very beginning Creation. No other creation before it.

Yes it is time to fly. Will you see, in the beginning you were without form, and void. God spoke into the darkness and said,, let there be light. You are a new creature.

 

[Waiting on him]

Consider the chart below, marks.

Daniel is praying for his people. Gabriel arrives mid prayer and tells him his peoples days are numbered and goes through the process of breaking the time period given, down.

The time given is 70 weeks of years ie, 490 literal years. This period starts with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem after it was destroyed by the Babylonians. A starting point is identified....we know it as 457BC.

70 weeks of years into the future (490 years) from 457BC we arrive at AD34....this is when Stephan was stoned. The Jews had rejected their Messiah and now they have rejected his people. From hence forth the Message went to the Gentiles.

National Israel's status as favoured nation had expired....This is what 'determined' means in the angels opening; '70 weeks are determined upon your people'

Those now commissioned to share God's Grace was given to all who embraced the Gospel message...jews and gentiles individually.

There is no separating of a 7 year (1 week) period in the continuum of 490 years (70 weeks). This prophecy is a continual time line.

And he asked how many times must I forgive my brother whom sins against me

7x70?

 

[Timtofly]

I see. Not to me. The question of pre-existance is something very different in my view.

Consistency of hermanuetic shows the sons of God to be angels. And Jude comments about how it was accomplished.

Much love!

Well a son of God is a child of God in the image of God. If you attribute that to angels, then I guess the stars and messengers are humanity, no? Either angels are messengers, thus stars, and humans are the sons of God, or Genesis 1:26-27 is not about humans, but stars/angels.

Angels are on day 4 and humans day 6. Job 38:7 explains both entities were created in the same week, at the beginning.

7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy"

Morning stars:

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Sons of God:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.