When was the A.O.D fulfilled?

[IndianaRob]

Ok, I do agree with you on this but I think they were bodily raised in Matthew 27:52-53.

Do you also place Michael standing up in Daniel 12:1 with Revelation 12:7 where Michael and his angels fight the dragon in heaven?

You are right MANY did rise bodily in Matthew but not ALL. I didn't understand this for many years, not until I fully what "it" is in 1 Corinthians 15:42. It (the soul) is sown in corruption (the human body). It (the soul) is raised in incorruption (the glorified body). "The Resurrection" happened at the same time that God raised SOME but not all earthly bodies in judgement against the unbelieving Jews. I say it was done for mercies sake because you've got to be totally depraved to see everything they saw and still reject Jesus as their savior. So God gave them 40 years to repent until finally just wiping them out.

1 Corinthians
Chapter 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Yes I believe Daniel 12 and Revelation 12:7 are the same, in fact were told that Revelation 12:7 happened at a time when "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Everybody knows that salvation came when Jesus died and rose again but that doesn't fit futurist doctrine so that can't see "Now is come salvation" for what it actually says.

They also can't accept that the resurrection was when Jesus came in his kingdom with all power and glory.

 

[grafted branch]

You are right MANY did rise bodily in Matthew but not ALL. I didn't understand this for many years, not until I fully what "it" is in 1 Corinthians 15:42. It (the soul) is sown in corruption (the human body). It (the soul) is raised in incorruption (the glorified body). "The Resurrection" happened at the same time that God raised SOME but not all earthly bodies in judgement against the unbelieving Jews. I say it was done for mercies sake because you've got to be totally depraved to see everything they saw and still reject Jesus as their savior. So God gave them 40 years to repent until finally just wiping them out.

1 Corinthians
Chapter 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Yes I believe Daniel 12 and Revelation 12:7 are the same, in fact were told that Revelation 12:7 happened at a time when "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Everybody knows that salvation came when Jesus died and rose again but that doesn't fit futurist doctrine so that can't see "Now is come salvation" for what it actually says.

They also can't accept that the resurrection was when Jesus came in his kingdom with all power and glory.

Ok, thanks, I think we agree on several points.

So God gave them 40 years to repent until finally just wiping them out.

There was a difference between when they rejected the promised land in the Old Testament and wandered for 40 years. There was no hope at that time, they died in the wilderness.

Those Jews who rejected Christ after the cross, were not without hope, they could still be saved and enter the kingdom. I would say up until Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, if they didn’t flee at that time, they would be without hope after that.

Ok, “the days being shortened”, do you see this as the days without hope being shortened?

 

[IndianaRob]

Ok, thanks, I think we agree on several points.


There was a difference between when they rejected the promised land in the Old Testament and wandered for 40 years. There was no hope at that time, they died in the wilderness.

Those Jews who rejected Christ after the cross, were not without hope, they could still be saved and enter the kingdom. I would say up until Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, if they didn’t flee at that time, they would be without hope after that.

Ok, “the days being shortened”, do you see this as the days without hope being shortened?

The shortened days is one that I've been looking at for many years but honestly I have no idea what that means.

 

[Davidpt]

I take all of them literally.

The meaning is serious. There will be a great tribulation. It will be so bad, do not even go home, run to the hills (especially in jerusalem)

You just don't get it, do you? Don't feel alone, though. There are even Amils that don't get it, either. You would think if anyone gets it, it would at least be Amils that do. Let's assume the following is meaning in the literal sense, that it means exactly what it says.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Now we have to factor in Luke 17:33 since it is being applied to both Matthew 24:15-18 and Luke 17:31 since these are referring to the same thing.

Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

If Matthew 24:15-18 is meaning in the literal sense, what should that obviously mean if one does exactly what Matthew 24:16 says to do at the time? Shouldn't it mean they have saved their life by fleeing to the mountains? Why then did Jesus say this in Luke 17:33---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it?

If meaning in a literal sense does that sound like this---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it--fits this---Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains?

IOW, if one flees into the mountains at the time, thus seeking to save their life by doing so, that same person shall then lose it, shall lose the life they were seeking to save by fleeing into the mountains. This is not rocket science. Matthew 24:16 cannot be meaning in a literal sense, because if it was Jesus would have said this instead---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall preserve it...ummm---not lose it instead. Duh!

Seriously, all it takes sometimes is to just a little common sense when interpreting something. Common sense says if Jesus is meaning in the literal sense in Matthew 24:16 He would have said this in Luke 17:33--Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall preserve it---and not this instead---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it.

Assuming this is meaning in the literal sense---Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains---which then fits that better? A) or B) below?

A) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it

B) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall preserve it

Undeniably B) would fit it better--Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains--if that fleeing is meaning in the literal sense to literal mountains. The problem is though, Jesus did not say what B) says, He said what A) says. Therefore, it is A) that we have to apply to this---Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains--which then equals, Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it. As if that makes some kind of sense if this part is supposed to be understood in the literal sense---Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

The way one seeks to save their life is not by fleeing to the mountains, it is by fleeing into the arms of the beast since things are going to get so bad on this planet once Matthew 24:21 begins in the future, that it will be easier for some to worship the beast, thus seek to save one's life by doing so, except in the end they lose that same life they sought to save. Which then means this part---and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it--equals those that do what Matthew 24:16 records, because by doing so this equals not worshiping the beast .

Why a lot of people, including a lot of Amils, think some of this stuff can only be understood in the literal sense, is beyond me?

 

[grafted branch]

The shortened days is one that I've been looking at for many years but honestly I have no idea what that means.

Yea, I’ve looked at it several ways myself.

One thing I’ve thought about is if the days are shortened it can mean the starting point has changed. For example if someone said when Monday comes you will have 5 days of tribulation, but for your sake the tribulation will be shortened to 2 days. The tribulation could start on Thursday now and still end on Friday.

So I think it was entirely possible that the abomination of desolation was when the first sacrifice was made after the cross and the time when to flee what altered when the days were shortened to when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies.

 

[Davidpt]

Yea, I’ve looked at it several ways myself.

One thing I’ve thought about is if the days are shortened it can mean the starting point has changed. For example if someone said when Monday comes you will have 5 days of tribulation, but for your sake the tribulation will be shortened to 2 days. The tribulation could start on Thursday now and still end on Friday.

So I think it was entirely possible that the abomination of desolation was when the first sacrifice was made after the cross and the time when to flee what altered when the days were shortened to when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies.

I tend to think it simply means there is a set amount of time set aside reserved for this where it doesn't exceed that. For example, 42 months. Not 43 months, not 60 months, but 42 months. Therefore, these days have been shortened since it could have been much longer in duration, such as 60 months or even a hundred months.

 

[Davidpt]

The tribulation could start on Thursday now and still end on Friday.

I guess per your view of things, if a thousand years can mean 40 literal years, I guess 42 months, the duration of great tribulation BTW, it can equal 2 literal 24 hour days instead. But only in your world, not in mine.

 

[IndianaRob]

Yea, I’ve looked at it several ways myself.

One thing I’ve thought about is if the days are shortened it can mean the starting point has changed. For example if someone said when Monday comes you will have 5 days of tribulation, but for your sake the tribulation will be shortened to 2 days. The tribulation could start on Thursday now and still end on Friday.

So I think it was entirely possible that the abomination of desolation was when the first sacrifice was made after the cross and the time when to flee what altered when the days were shortened to when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies.

I think it's related to how much time God spent wreaking havoc on the earth when they crucified Jesus. I'm sure the answer is in the bible but I haven't found it yet.

 

[grafted branch]

I guess per your view of things, if a thousand years can mean 40 literal years, I guess 42 months, the duration of great tribulation BTW, it can equal 2 literal 24 hour days instead. But only in your world, not in mine.

Well as 2 Peter 3:8 tells us, it’s an either or type of thing, 1 can be 1,000 or 1,000 can be 1.

 

[Davidpt]

Well as 2 Peter 3:8 tells us, it’s an either or type of thing, 1 can be 1,000 or 1,000 can be 1.

Have you tried looking at 2 Peter 3:8 like such?

that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Suppose the text had said this instead?

that one day is with the Lord as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day.

Would it would not that literally be true? If it is literally true, thus it means what it says, the same has to be true when the text is saying this instead---that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

IOW, the same way one literal day equals a literal 24 hours, and that a literal 24 hours equals one literal day, the same applies to 2 Peter 3:8.

Meaning one day and 24 hours are the same thing. That one day and a thousand years are the same thing

Per the former. One full day is comprised of 24 hours. This day is meaning a 24 hour day. Per the latter. One full day is comprised of a thousand years. This day is meaning a thousand year day. Obviously, 24 hours is an era of time that make up one full day. Not a thousand year day, a 24 hour day. The same should be true of a thousand years, that a thousand years are an era of time that make up one full day. Not a 24 hour day, a thousand year day.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You just don't get it, do you? Don't feel alone, though. There are even Amils that don't get it, either. You would think if anyone gets it, it would at least be Amils that do. Let's assume the following is meaning in the literal sense, that it means exactly what it says.

My friend, I have studied this stuff for over 30 years. Please do not insult me and say I do not get it. If you have something to show me, then show me, otherwise I will take it you think you know it all and are unteachable yourself.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Now we have to factor in Luke 17:33 since it is being applied to both Matthew 24:15-18 and Luke 17:31 since these are referring to the same thing.
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

If Matthew 24:15-18 is meaning in the literal sense, what should that obviously mean if one does exactly what Matthew 24:16 says to do at the time? Shouldn't it mean they have saved their life by fleeing to the mountains? Why then did Jesus say this in Luke 17:33---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it?

If meaning in a literal sense does that sound like this---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it--fits this---Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains?

IOW, if one flees into the mountains at the time, thus seeking to save their life by doing so, that same person shall then lose it, shall lose the life they were seeking to save by fleeing into the mountains. This is not rocket science. Matthew 24:16 cannot be meaning in a literal sense, because if it was Jesus would have said this instead---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall preserve it...ummm---not lose it instead. Duh!

lol. You are out there. I hope you are not trying to convince me of something, Although your the first one to make this argument to me, I am not buying it,

Jesus is talking about those who seek to save their life by rejecting him. By falling and doing what the leaders do. (like taking the mark of the beast etc etc)

He promised to save the jews. that is why he ius warning those in jerusalem to flee.. Flee to when they need to go so he can do what he promised..

Seriously, all it takes sometimes is to just a little common sense when interpreting something. Common sense says if Jesus is meaning in the literal sense in Matthew 24:16 He would have said this in Luke 17:33--Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall preserve it---and not this instead---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it.

Again, You have to look at context.

Assuming this is meaning in the literal sense---Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains---which then fits that better? A) or B) below?

A) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it

B) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall preserve it

Yawn, this is getting old. and it sounds like your trying to be desperate to prove your point. Your not doing very well

Undeniably B) would fit it better--Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains--if that fleeing is meaning in the literal sense to literal mountains. The problem is though, Jesus did not say what B) says, He said what A) says. Therefore, it is A) that we have to apply to this---Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains--which then equals, Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it. As if that makes some kind of sense if this part is supposed to be understood in the literal sense---Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

The way one seeks to save their life is not by fleeing to the mountains, it is by fleeing into the arms of the beast since things are going to get so bad on this planet once Matthew 24:21 begins in the future, that it will be easier for some to worship the beast, thus seek to save one's life by doing so, except in the end they lose that same life they sought to save. Which then means this part---and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it--equals those that do what Matthew 24:16 records, because by doing so this equals not worshiping the beast .

Why a lot of people, including a lot of Amils, think some of this stuff can only be understood in the literal sense, is beyond me?

Amils do not take anything literally. they spiritualise everything, they must, Because if they did not. they would have to admit things have not yet taken place yet..

In Luke 21 He spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem, when you see armies surround, run..

This literally happened, and was fulfilled

In matt 24. He is speaking to the world as a Whole. But to those in jerusalem in part. He said when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place run, for then their will be great tribulation such as has never been seen before or after

This HAS NOT happened yet, neither of these events. The fact WW1 and WW2 was far greater a tribulation to the worlds stage and even in the promised land proves 70 AD was not the fulfillment

But like you said, people will believe what they want.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well as 2 Peter 3:8 tells us, it’s an either or type of thing, 1 can be 1,000 or 1,000 can be 1.

It says in context of Jesus being slack. That a day is like 1000 years. In his mind

It does not tell us when we see a prophecy that he will rule for 1000 years it could be anything other than 1000 years..

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is no need for a future Temple to be built to fulfill this AOD prophecy, as it has already been fulfilled in 70 a.d. when the Roman army surrounded, and then destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Both the words of Jesus and history prove this to be true. With the abomination of desolation events already being fulfilled, we can now focus on the events leading up to Christ's second coming, and on the signs concerning the end of this world.

Your fulfilment and what jesus said are two separate things.

We must remember that the whole of the Olivet Discourse is discussed in all three synotpic gospels.

but let us look at the key passage in Matt. 24:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The abominat iof desolation does not destroy Jerusalem, but is one who stands in the holy of holies! then Jesus said that many things would happen. None of them have taken place yet.

Nothing Rome did to Jerusalem and the Temple rises to the level of such great tribulation that it will never be matched again ever!

there will be another temple. It is required to fulfill man prophecies of the OT, and the Olivet and Thess. and REv. Only those who hold to some type of preterism believe otherwise or amillenialists for the most part.

 

[grafted branch]

It says in context of Jesus being slack. That a day is like 1000 years. In his mind

It does not tell us when we see a prophecy that he will rule for 1000 years it could be anything other than 1000 years..

Right, so the souls who ask the question “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” Are asking about the 1,000 years.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Your fulfilment and what jesus said are two separate things.

We must remember that the whole of the Olivet Discourse is discussed in all three synotpic gospels.

but let us look at the key passage in Matt. 24:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The abominat iof desolation does not destroy Jerusalem, but is one who stands in the holy of holies! then Jesus said that many things would happen. None of them have taken place yet.

Nothing Rome did to Jerusalem and the Temple rises to the level of such great tribulation that it will never be matched again ever!

there will be another temple. It is required to fulfill man prophecies of the OT, and the Olivet and Thess. and REv. Only those who hold to some type of preterism believe otherwise or amillenialists for the most part.

Many claim the abomination of desolation (AOD)spoken of by Daniel and Jesus has not been fulfilled yet, and another Temple needs to be rebuilt in the future in Jerusalem in order to fulfill this prophecy.

The easiest way I have found to prove this doctrine is false is by Jesus’ own words. Below both Jesus and the apostles, were speaking of the Temple and buildings they were looking at "with their own eyes."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right, so the souls who ask the question “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” Are asking about the 1,000 years.

where do you get this?

They are asking how Long Jesus is going to allow the stuff which is happening on earth at the time,,

Jesus will be returning very shortly by that time,, in less that 3.5 years

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Many claim the abomination of desolation (AOD)spoken of by Daniel and Jesus has not been fulfilled yet, and another Temple needs to be rebuilt in the future in Jerusalem in order to fulfill this prophecy.

The easiest way I have found to prove this doctrine is false is by Jesus’ own words. Below both Jesus and the apostles, were speaking of the Temple and buildings they were looking at "with their own eyes."

And this is supposed to prove your point?

Jesus said when you see this idol in the holy place.

It has not happened yet.

so your attempt to prove us wrong, has in fact. help to prove us right.

 

[grafted branch]

where do you get this?

They are asking how Long Jesus is going to allow the stuff which is happening on earth at the time,,

Jesus will be returning very shortly by that time,, in less that 3.5 years

So you think Jesus returned 3.5 years after they asked the question?

Obviously they asked the question prior to the book of Revelation being written.

Nobody today is going to die and go to heaven and ask the question of how long. Everybody who’s read Revelation chapter 6 knows the answer is “a little season”. When you die are you planning on asking “how long”? Or maybe asking how many disciples Jesus had?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you think Jesus returned 3.5 years after they asked the question?

I think he returned within the 3.5 years.

these are people martyred during the great tribulation, which already started.. Jesus comes at the end of that tribulation period

Obviously they asked the question prior to the book of Revelation being written.

No, its not obvious. It is obvious it was a vision john saw of things which would come

Nobody today is going to die and go to heaven and ask the question of how long. Everybody who’s read Revelation chapter 6 knows the answer is “a little season”. When you die are you planning on asking “how long”? Or maybe asking how many disciples Jesus had?

Or maybe these people did not know the word. Found Christ during the tribulation.; God killed before they could learn the bible. and did not know.

 

[grafted branch]

No, its not obvious. It is obvious it was a vision john saw of things which would come

If you were one of the martyrs would you ask the question? Why would do something like that?

Or maybe these people did not know the word. Found Christ during the tribulation.; God killed before they could learn the bible. and did not know.

That can be true, in verse 9 they are slain for the word of God and their testimony. The fact is nobody is going to be asking questions they already know the answer to, that would be showing a lack of faith.

The fifth seal martyrs asked the question prior to it being written or possibly just after Revelation went to the seven churches at the latest.