When are God's Elect Justified?

[Behold]

Sorry but that is the word from the Greek and how the word is defined in the original language oh, you who loves Jacob Arminius.

And if you could read Koine Greek, on a Translator's Fluency Level, then you would have business here posting Greek.

But as you dont have that ability, and are only reading what one Greek Translator said, then you are beyond foolish to try to pretend that you are a Greek Scholar, Greek Teacher.... ect ect.

So, this TOO is your deception... @MR Im Selling John Calvin to Christians as my Ministry till i Die.

 

[Behold]

Calvin lives rent free in your mind.

You are SELLING Calvinism. @Ronald Nolette (Thats your mind).

That is not Christianity.... that is... you are... = "im a disciple of this HERETIC, and so, i SELL His HERESY,.... I lie to Christians by telling them its "the Gospel".

Its not the Gospel.
Its this.., and you are..

= Galatians 1:8

 

[KUWN]

Back from visiting three of my kids and 8 3/4 of my grandbabies!

Foreknow is the word -pro-ginosko where we get our word prognosis from. It does not mean that God looks into the future and see what people will do ahead of time. It means knowing in advance through pre planning.

Like in the old days when you took a trip with an AAA trip tik. You knew where you were going for you pre planned the trip on a series of map pages.

I would research the definition on pro-ginosko, because God's Omniscience means he sees what is going to happen in the future. God's awareness of the future and man's choices are a necessary attribute of God. God's pre-planning is based on all data that God has, such as future events.

God does not decree certain events randomly. God does NOT look into the future and decree who is going to be saved. He predetermines the plan not the person. For example, God predetermined that those IN CHRIST would be conformed to Christ's image. But he doesn't unilaterally predetermine who will be saved. The concept of God choosing who will get saved is not taught in Scripture.

In Rom 16.7. Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Note that Andronicus and Junia were IN CHRIST before Paul was. If the saved were all elected in him (Eph 1) in eternity past, then how is it possible for Andronicus and Junia to be in Christ before Paul was?

If you start in the OT and go to every instance of elect/chosen you will not find one instance where it refers to salvation. So the concept of elect/chosen gets part of its meaning by searching the OT first. When you come across Eph 1.4, where Paul tells us "we were chosen in him..." To be chosen is to be part of a privileged group, not being chosen to salvation. There is one verse in the NT that might imply that, but I will let you find it.

 

[brightfame52]

That would be Universalism..,. Not Christianity.

Thats your understanding, which means nothing to me

 

[brightfame52]

When were believers first in Christ ?

1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This scripture indicates the absolute Truth of the Gospel of Eternal Justification or believers having been Justified before God before the world began. See God the Father put believers in Christ, or how could scripture read here in this text "But of him are ye[believers] in Christ Jesus"

Now the question is, how long has then been so with God, that He put believers in Christ Jesus ?

Paul answers that question in 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us[believers] in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Before the world began, because before it began, God gave us believers Purpose and Grace in Christ Jesus, and so at that same date, He viewed us and made us to be in Christ Jesus, and even then Christ was made unto us [in Him] Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Which Righteousness imputes also to us Justification, for Justification is declaring one Righteous ! So being in Christ Jesus before the World began, with Purpose and Grace given us in Him 2 Tim 1:9, we had to be Righteous in Christ before the world began, hence Eternal Justification, a Gospel of Gods Grace Truth ! 9

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sorry but that is the word from the Greek and how the word is defined in the original language oh, you who loves Jacob Arminius.

And if you could read Koine Greek, on a Translator's Fluency Level, then you would have business here posting Greek.

But as you dont have that ability, and are only reading what one Greek Translator said, then you are beyond foolish to try to pretend that you are a Greek Scholar, Greek Teacher.... ect ect.

So, this TOO is your deception... @MR Im Selling John Calvin to Christians as my Ministry till i Die.

never tried to pretend I was a greek scholar, so that is another lie on you rpart.

But I did take 1 year of koine greek and know how to use th elanguage tools well as anyone who is serious about studying and knowing Scripture should.

But as you will not post biblical reasons why you des[pise calvinism,

cannot post Scriptures defending your Armenian position,
Are lousy at English Grammar
and even worse at Greek Grammar, why should anyone here take you seriously?

BTW, I read from 7 different PHD's in koine Greek

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are SELLING Calvinism. @Ronald Nolette (Thats your mind).

That is not Christianity.... that is... you are... = "im a disciple of this HERETIC, and so, i SELL His HERESY,.... I lie to Christians by telling them its "the Gospel".

Its not the Gospel.
Its this.., and you are..

= Galatians 1:8

Once again:

You will not show from Scripture why you disagree with the five points of Calvin,

Will not defend with Scripture why you hold to the five points or Jacob Arminius (in this debate one is either /or or a mix of both)

You are lousy in understanding English grammar

And despise using Greek grammar tools to better help you understand the original writers,

Why should you be taken seriously????????????????????????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I would research the definition on pro-ginosko, because God's Omniscience means he sees what is going to happen in the future. God's awareness of the future and man's choices are a necessary attribute of God. God's pre-planning is based on all data that God has, such as future events.

God does not decree certain events randomly. God does NOT look into the future and decree who is going to be saved. He predetermines the plan not the person. For example, God predetermined that those IN CHRIST would be conformed to Christ's image. But he doesn't unilaterally predetermine who will be saved. The concept of God choosing who will get saved is not taught in Scripture.

In Rom 16.7. Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Note that Andronicus and Junia were IN CHRIST before Paul was. If the saved were all elected in him (Eph 1) in eternity past, then how is it possible for Andronicus and Junia to be in Christ before Paul was?

If you start in the OT and go to every instance of elect/chosen you will not find one instance where it refers to salvation. So the concept of elect/chosen gets part of its meaning by searching the OT first. When you come across Eph 1.4, where Paul tells us "we were chosen in him..." To be chosen is to be part of a privileged group, not being chosen to salvation. There is one verse in the NT that might imply that, but I will let you find it.

YOu base your understanding of Scripture on someones teaching and not the original words.

You should research pro-ginosko for it does mean pre-planning.

And God deciding who gets saved is clearly taught.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father gives that person to Jesus.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You can't come to Jesus unless compelled by the Father (that is the meaning of drawn)

John 6:65:
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

We can't come to Jesus unless it was given to us by God.

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

We are elect by Him not by our choices.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He chose individuals to be in Him not choosing to be holy and waiting to see who would of their own free will decide to join in.

Romans 8:8

King James Version

​

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those in their human nature CANNOT please god!! Saying yes to jesus pleases God so those in their fallen nature CANNOT do this of themselves.

1 Corinthians 2:14

King James Version

​

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

the unsaved cannot even understand the things of God and considers them foolish!

Romans 9:14-24

King James Version

​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Paul says god making one lump dishonorable and one lump honorable applies to Jews and Gentiles both!

A plain reading of Scriptures puts God in control and not some mythical free will in an unsaved person.

 

[KUWN]

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You can't come to Jesus unless compelled by the Father (that is the meaning of drawn)

You chose to state your position rather than defend it. Since you are not defending a position, I have nothing to respond to.

But I did want to bring something to your attention. In GJohn 6.44, God draws people to Christ, but look at what John also says.
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” GJohn 12.32

So, does that mean all people will be saved?

 

[brightfame52]

When was He Jesus made a Surety of a better covenant ?

Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament/covenant.

The word testament diathéké is also translated covenant. So Jesus was made a Surety of a Better Covenant, which is the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

The Shepherd is the Surety of the Sheep, set up in the Everlasting Covenant, wherein His Blood was purposed to be shed 1 Pet 1:19-20

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So, hence Jesus engaged in His Suretyship responsibility before the foundation of the world.

This meant that the debt of sin that would be incurred by the sheep in Adam and in themselves became Christ's, and not theirs. Gods vindictive Justice looked for the payment not from them, the principals, but from the Surety, Jesus, the Great Shepherd/Surety of the Sheep ! This is a Legal transaction from Heaven whereby the debt that shall be incurred by the sheep in Adam against Gods Law, became the debt of their Surety, hence discharging them from all their sin debt, making them perfectly Righteous/Justified from their sins before God, even before the foundation of the world ! Jesus was made a Surety before the foundation of the world ! 9

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You chose to state your position rather than defend it. Since you are not defending a position, I have nothing to respond to.

But I did want to bring something to your attention. In GJohn 6.44, God draws people to Christ, but look at what John also says.
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” GJohn 12.32

So, does that mean all people will be saved?

I can answer that when you answer this.

Are these two verses the same or is there a fundamental difference. See if you can spot it and why.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[KUWN]

I can answer that when you answer this.

Are these two verses the same or is there a fundamental difference. See if you can spot it and why.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus is drawing in 32
The Father is drawing in 44.

 

[brightfame52]

Justification before the foundation for certain sinners is true simply because from everlasting their Surety, the Lord Jesus Christ was ordained in the counsels of God to satisfy God against their sins and iniquities that they would commit in time, so we read 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;


19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

And God from everlasting rested in that fact Heb 4:3

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

God in Covenant with His Son from everlasting, imputing the sins of the elect to His account, so that He would in time come and be a propitiation sacrifice 1 Jn 4:10, at that time He Justified His elect people from all their sins. 10

 

[brightfame52]

Eternal Justification based upon the Suretyship of Christ !

It cant be denied by the adversaries of Truth that Christ was made a Surety for a better Covenant Heb 7:22

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament, which I believe refers to the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting

covenant, Now basically a Surety has agreed to take on the debt, liability, payment for another; Now in this a pact is made by the Surety and the Creditor, the Creditor having accepted the Suretyship. Its like a striking of hands, or a hand shake like as here Prov 6:1

My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger,

Prov 17:18

A man void of understanding striketh hands, and becometh surety in the presence of his friend.

Now once the Creditor approves of this, those whom should incur a debt, a debt the Creditor knows the debtor cannot pay, by pledge of agreement, the Creditor must look for payment of the debt from the Surety and not the debtor, which discharges the debtor.
And so the debtors have been legally discharged or acquitted, justified from having to undergo any legal condemnation of the law, not to receive any meted out justice. Now lets ask ourselves, when did the Son Of God, Jesus actually become the Surety of an better Covenant ? Was it before the world began, or after. Was it before the Cross ? Whenever it was, that's when the debtors, for whom Christ was made Surety, were Justified in the eyes of the Law, from all condemnation they would occur upon themselves !

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus is drawing in 32
The Father is drawing in 44.

And no one can be drawn to Jesus except by the Father.

You need to learn the intensity of the verbs draw and that Jesus attracts all men to Him by His death and the Father compels men to come to Jesus to be saved.

 

[KUWN]

And no one can be drawn to Jesus except by the Father.

You need to learn the intensity of the verbs draw and that Jesus attracts all men to Him by His death and the Father compels men to come to Jesus to be saved.

Are you referring to being dragged or allured? I wrote an article on that several years ago.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are you referring to being dragged or allured? I wrote an article on that several years ago.

In JOhn 6 i t isd being dragged.

In Jesus drawing men to Himself- it is merely an attraction.

Teh difference is: one is being grabbed and pulled and th eother is being asked and wooed.

 

[brightfame52]

And no one can be drawn to Jesus except by the Father.

You need to learn the intensity of the verbs draw and that Jesus attracts all men to Him by His death and the Father compels men to come to Jesus to be saved.

The Drawing Jn 6:44;12:32 is regeneration, the giving of new Spiritual life. Its an inner drawing, power

 

[brightfame52]

Also, it should go without saying, to deny eternal justification based upon the Cross in time, is to deny Justification by the Cross in time, they are inseparable. Even though the Cross did not actually occur until 33ad, it by no means subjected God to have to wait until then to acquit His Elect based upon it. Neither did He have to wait until 33 a d to actually charge the sins of His elect upon their Surety Jesus Christ, He very well could have done that before the world began, which doing, acquitted the elect from all the charges they would incur in time, by #1 Their natural head adam, and #2 their own personal individual acts of transgressions after their physical life began in time ! So to deny eternal justification, is to deny Justification by the blood of Christ at anytime ! 10

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Drawing Jn 6:44;12:32 is regeneration, the giving of new Spiritual life. Its an inner drawing, power

No it is not, but you are welcome to prove that biblically.

If it is regenration, then yo0u by default are a universalist. For ALL men are drawn and you just said that drawing is regeneration.