When are God's Elect Justified?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,086
7,434
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
These words in your post were the same words spoken in Bible College by the people that were in my opinion lazy. They wanted God to act like a Genie and waited on God to give them supernatural insight into the Word.

Do you understand @KUWN what Being Born Of The Spirit means?

And how else can you become Born Again, if not by divine heart revelation?

You think that you have to read scripture all day to be birthed by the Spirit Of God?


I am not saying you are lazy, but perhaps these words will remind you that the study of Scripture is a life-long pursuit. It is not hard, but it is time consuming. And if your goal is to become more Christ-like, heed these words from Christ: GJohn 17...

17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
The scriptures don’t birth your spirit do they?

Or do you think that they do?

Do you think that quoting reams and reams of scripture, makes your spirit Born Again?

Do you think that your own knowledge of scripture, makes your spirit Born Again.

By whose witness are we birthed into Christ?

Do you think the Bible is Gods Living Spirit?

Do you think reading the Bible will birth you in the Spirit?

How do you know that God is Spirit, just by reading his word?

By whose witness do you know that Gods Spirit is a Living Spirit?

How do you know that Jesus died and was resurrected, just by reading your Bible?..or is there a witness who testifies Of this truth?
 
Last edited:

KUWN

Active Member
Sep 13, 2024
634
206
43
69
Southeast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you think the Bible is Gods Living Spirit?
No! the Holy Spirit illuminates the scripture so that we can understand it. If anything, I would say the the Word (Jesus) is the Bible in a sense.

Listen, this is not the kind of scholarly interaction I was hoping for on this site, I went ahead and Ignored you so there is no reason to send me more posts. I have ignored probably 20 members due to their answers. I actually hope someone disagrees with me so I can get to know the Scriptures by researching the topic. May God bless you!
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,086
7,434
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
No! the Holy Spirit illuminates the scripture so that we can understand it. If anything, I would say the the Word (Jesus) is the Bible in a sense.


Ok, well if you think that Jesus is the Bible ( in a sense) then that’s where you are on your walk with the Lord.

You do not need a Bible to read, to be birthed in the Spirit.

I became Born Again having never read a Bible...33yrs ago..
Listen, this is not the kind of scholarly interaction I was hoping for on this site, I went ahead and Ignored you so there is no reason to send me more posts. I have ignored probably 20 members due to their answers. I actually hope someone disagrees with me so I can get to know the Scriptures by researching the topic. May God bless you!
No problem, I won’t force what I believe onto you.

Just to let you know that you don’t have to search the scriptures to become Born Again @KUWN .

It’s good that you search the scriptures though and I wish you well on your journey with the Lord.
 
Last edited:

ProDeo

Well-Known Member
Nov 20, 2024
622
529
93
50
Deventer
Faith
Christian
Country
Netherlands
When are Gods elect Justified ? I have been explaining that
Calvin taught double predestination, which is the teaching that not only does God choose some to be saved, He also creates people who will be damned. There is no Scripture how God chooses, it's impossible to know if you belong to the elect, or not. That's not what Scripture teaches.

Scripture is full of predictions of the future, God is able to look ahead in time and so election and predestination should be understood, God (on beforehand) knows exactly who will come to Christ (the elect) and who will reject Christ, the damned.
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,086
7,434
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Calvin taught double predestination, which is the teaching that not only does God choose some to be saved, He also creates people who will be damned. There is no Scripture how God chooses, it's impossible to know if you belong to the elect, or not. That's not what Scripture teaches.

Scripture is full of predictions of the future, God is able to look ahead in time and so election and predestination should be understood, God (on beforehand) knows exactly who will come to Christ (the elect) and who will reject Christ, the damned.
Can you explain what these vessels of wrath mean?


Some vessels made for honour.

Some vessels made for wrath?
Here is the scripture @ProDeo

Romans 9​

King James Version​

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 
Last edited:

ProDeo

Well-Known Member
Nov 20, 2024
622
529
93
50
Deventer
Faith
Christian
Country
Netherlands
Can you explain what these vessels of wrath mean?
Sure, like I said, God foreknew, why is that so hard to understand. There are so many texts that speak of that, God knew everything on beforehand even before He created A&E, examples, the book of life in Rev 13:8, Efez 1:4, etc.
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,086
7,434
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Sure, like I said, God foreknew, why is that so hard to understand. There are so many texts that speak of that, God knew everything on beforehand even before He created A&E, examples, the book of life in Rev 13:8, Efez 1:4, etc.
He’s not saying foreknew in that scripture though is he?

That’s your interpretation of scripture .

@brightfame52 his interpretation plus @Ronald Nolette are different I believe?

Let’s see if they reply?
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,086
7,434
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom

Revelation 20​

King James Version​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection
.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them
.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
Last edited:

ProDeo

Well-Known Member
Nov 20, 2024
622
529
93
50
Deventer
Faith
Christian
Country
Netherlands
sml

Thus? sml

Before creation my name was already in the book of life, I believe it because I am not a Calvinist.

However if you are a Calvinist you can not know it, that is what Calvin taught. Maybe you are, maybe not.
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,086
7,434
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
sml

Thus? sml

Before creation my name was already in the book of life, I believe it because I am not a Calvinist.

However if you are a Calvinist you can not know it, that is what Calvin taught. Maybe you are, maybe not.
Do you mean that someone who does not know wether their name is written in the book of life, that makes them a Calvinist, is that what you mean?
 

ProDeo

Well-Known Member
Nov 20, 2024
622
529
93
50
Deventer
Faith
Christian
Country
Netherlands
Do you mean that someone who does not know wether their name is written in the book of life, that makes them a Calvinist, is that what you mean?
Well, the thread is about the elect, the ones written in the book of life before the creation of the world, God knew everything in advance.

Calvinism teaches nobody knows if his name is in the book of life, hence he/she will have to live in fear his/her whole life where he/she will end up, in heaven or in hell.

I don't believe that is true and I hope you don't believe Calvinism either, because Scripture tells a different story.

Paul -
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

John -
1Joh 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1Joh 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
1Joh 4:17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
1Joh 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
1Joh 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

Note - that we may have confidence for the day of judgment,

How about that [!]
 

brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2020
5,011
489
83
67
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christ our Surety from Everlasting, so Justified the same !

Christ , if He died for us was Our Surety Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Christ shedding His Blood was out of a Suretyship responsibility to a better covenant or testament Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new/better testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The many here are them He was made a surety for !

Now the question is, when did Christ become their Surety ? It was before the foundation of the world, thats why we have scriptures like 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained[to die] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He was slain in His Suretyship Purpose from the foundation of the World, meaning though He had not already in time died, yet it had already before time been determined that He would die as a Surety, so Jesus said Lk 22:22

And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

It had been determined by the Eternal Counsels of the Godhead that Christ would come and die a Surety Death for the sins of God's Chosen People, those Chosen in the Surety before the foundation Eph 1:4.9
 

brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2020
5,011
489
83
67
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John Calvinism.. Hyper Calvinism.. The "5 Points" "TULIP">... is a Theological blasphemy committed willfully against the Holy Spirit.

ITs an attack on God, personally,...... and an attack against The Cross, Literally.

John Calvin has his deceived believing that God wont let some people trust in Christ.

Now, here is how to SEE THAT... so that you get the idea.... regarding exactly how Satanic it is..

Reader...That is exactly teaching.. = that JESUS wont allow some people, to trust in Him..... That Jesus The Christ wont allow some people to BELIEVE in Him.

So, what could be more SATANIC, then that teaching?... And that is the HEART, the CORE, the Theological FOUNDATION< of Calvinism.. of "TULIP"> of "pre-destined elect" Theology.

Calvinism... HyperCalvinism.. "the 5 Points" .. TULIP..... : is Of The Devil
When are Gods elect Justified ? I have been explaining that
 

brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2020
5,011
489
83
67
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The "doctrines of Grace" were created by a man who had a demon.. named John Calvin.. and those similar evolved His teaching into Hyper Calvinism.... that has deceived you.

All this.. was created after the Bible was created...
So, its "not the Gospel".. as the Gospel came from Paul........and Paul is not a Calvinist.
You dont realize that the Doctrines of Grace are the Gospel !
 

Ritajanice

Born-Again
Mar 9, 2023
13,086
7,434
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Well, the thread is about the elect, the ones written in the book of life before the creation of the world, God knew everything in advance.

Calvinism teaches nobody knows if his name is in the book of life, hence he/she will have to live in fear his/her whole life where he/she will end up, in heaven or in hell.
I haven’t a clue if my name is written in the book of life, reading scripture and believing it, ( whatever that means) doesn’t make it so, neither does it make me a Calvinist, where is all this nonsense coming from!
I don't believe that is true and I hope you don't believe Calvinism either, because Scripture tells a different story.
I know in my heart / spirit that I am saved from eternal damnation , that I am Born Again, have 100% eternal security , that I will be with the Lord once my flesh body dies, so why would I need to know that I’m in the book of life?

The book of life refers to being eternally saved from eternal damnation I believe?

So why would I be living in fear as a Born Again, I have been birthed into Christ and am eternally in Christ?

There is no fear in Gods Love , His Spirit that we were birthed in, is the Spirit of Love...we’re in his Love by the power of his Spirit who keeps us in his Love...we are Born Again , our spirit is birthed into God’s Spirit.
Paul -
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Yes, and that came by divine heart revelation.and we see in scripture that divine heart revelation is being confirmed.
John -
1Joh 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
I couldn’t confess that Jesus is the Son Of God, not until after I became Born Again.

Who ever confesses that Jesus is the Son Of God, can only know that by divine heart revelation.

No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit...he is the witness who birthed our spirit, therefore he confesses that truth out of our mouth.

I could never confess that Jesus is Lord, I must know God in my spirit, before any confession can take place, because God is Spirit, he’s not the Bible.
1Joh 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
1Joh 4:17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
1Joh 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
1Joh 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

Note - that we may have confidence for the day of judgment,

How about that [!]
Great scripture that confirms Gods truth, once we have received it by divine heart revelation.
 

brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2020
5,011
489
83
67
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Calvin taught double predestination, which is the teaching that not only does God choose some to be saved, He also creates people who will be damned. There is no Scripture how God chooses, it's impossible to know if you belong to the elect, or not. That's not what Scripture teaches.

Scripture is full of predictions of the future, God is able to look ahead in time and so election and predestination should be understood, God (on beforehand) knows exactly who will come to Christ (the elect) and who will reject Christ, the damned.
When are Gods elect Justified ? I have been explaining that