What is the basis for the unbeliever's condemnation?

[face2face]

You don't know?

J.

Would I be correct in saying that this question could be answered in many ways by different people, each holding onto a different concept of Jesus?

 

[Johann]

Would I be correct in saying that this question could be answered in many ways by different people, each holding onto a different concept of Jesus?

What do the Scriptures say?

J.

 

[face2face]

What do the Scriptures say?

J.

Good question...there are many

 

[Johann]

Good question...there are many

So, brother, are you going to give me an answer? Don’t get caught up in the technicalities of eis or en-when exactly is a person in Christ Jesus?

J.

 

[face2face]

So, brother, are you going to give me an answer? Don’t get caught up in the technicalities of eis or en-when exactly is a person in Christ Jesus?

J.

Lets answer the question this way J.

When were we without Christ?

remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Eph 2:12

This doesn't teach us how to be in Christ, but it does show that the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise are found in Him.

Those who are NOT in Christ, have no hope and are without God in the world.

I suspect a few forum members might argue with Paul on this.

So how can a person truly be in Christ and know for certain they are?

F2F

 

[Johann]

Lets answer the question this way J.

When were we without Christ?

remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Eph 2:12

This doesn't teach us how to be in Christ, but it does show that the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise are found in Him.

Those who are NOT in Christ, have no hope and are without God in the world.

I suspect a few forum members might argue with Paul on this.

So how can a person truly be in Christ and know for certain they are?

F2F

I agree with the scripture you referenced, but you still haven’t answered a very simple question.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

So how can a person truly be in Christ and know for certain they are?

In Romans 8:16, though, Paul says, “The Spirit himself bears witness,” meaning that there is a special witness of the Holy Spirit to assure us that we are the children of God.


Witnessing that truth to our spirit all day, every day.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

 

[face2face]

I agree with the scripture you referenced, but you still haven’t answered a very simple question.

J.

Finding agreement is a precious thing in this forum.

“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness … to us also it shall be imputed if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead” (Rom 4:3, 24). “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). “The righteousness of God is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe” (Rom 3:22).

But how to enter?

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized?” (Acts 10:47). “We are buried with him by baptism into death” (Rom. 6:4). “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him” (Col. 2:12). “Planted together in the likeness of his death” (Rom. 6:5).

“As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal. 3:27). “Baptized into Jesus Christ” (Rom. 6:3). “Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38). “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins” (Acts 22:16). “Baptism doth also now save us” (1 Peter 3:21).

Put on Christ
Batpisted in Christ
Likeness of his death
Buried with him in Baptism
Baptised into his name
And on and on....

However there are many baptisms and many disregard baptism altogether!

If there is only One Baptism - how to know which is the right one?

F2F

 

[face2face]

In Romans 8:16, though, Paul says, “The Spirit himself bears witness,” meaning that there is a special witness of the Holy Spirit to assure us that we are the children of God.


Witnessing that truth to our spirit all day, every day.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Certainly true for those already in the true Christ, though we are looking at how to enter him and what of those who remain seperate.
F2F

 

[Johann]

Finding agreement is a precious thing in this forum.

“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness … to us also it shall be imputed if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead” (Rom 4:3, 24). “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). “The righteousness of God is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe” (Rom 3:22).

But how to enter?

In Christ Jesus you were chosen by God before creation. Ephesians 1:4, “[God] chose us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world.”

In Christ Jesus you are loved by God with an inseparable love. Romans 8:38–39, “I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

In Christ Jesus you were redeemed and forgiven for all your sins. Ephesians 1:7, “In [Christ] we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses.”

In Christ Jesus you are justified before God and the righteousness of God in Christ is imputed to you. Second Corinthians 5:21, “For our sake [God] made [Christ] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

In Christ Jesus you have become a new creation and a son of God. Second Corinthians 5:17, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.” Galatians 3:26, “In Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.”
2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Ephesians 1:13: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Ephesians 4:30: "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

1 Corinthians 1:30: "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."

Galatians 3:27: "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Romans 6:11: "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

2 Corinthians 1:21-22: "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Romans 8:9: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Colossians 3:3: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."

However there are many baptisms and many disregard baptism altogether!

Correct, many disregard baptism altogether-I don’t, and the Early Church Fathers can provide insight on this. Would you like a source?

Here’s a source from the Early Church Fathers:

Tertullian, On Baptism, Chapter 12: "We, however, as having a more serious consideration of the matter, are not at all indifferent to the nature of baptism, nor do we regard it as a mere rite, but as a true and solemn act of salvation."

J.

 

[face2face]

Ok...what do you mean by enter him?

The door is open for the moment but we are told it will close.

 

[Ritajanice]

Certainly true for those already in the true Christ, though we are looking at how to enter him and what of those who remain seperate.
F2F

We have already entered into the Spirit of Christ ,once we became Born Again.

 

[Ritajanice]

The door is open for the moment but we are told it will close.

It can never close m if your spirit has been birthed.

Do you understand the Living Spirit birth..if you don’t, then you can’t really claim what you have just taught..

We are Born Of God, His seed remains in us where?

His seed liveth and abideth forever in us..which can only come by divine, heart revelation .

Did you understand that scripture I posted?

This scripture isn’t something that you read into being, it comes by divine heart revelation just as his word says...it’s a Living spirit birth.

In Romans 8:16, though, Paul says, “The Spirit himself bears witness,” meaning that there is a special witness of the Holy Spirit to assure us that we are the children of God.

 

[face2face]

Correct, many disregard baptism altogether-I don’t, and the Early Church Fathers can provide insight on this. Would you like a source?

Here’s a source from the Early Church Fathers:

Tertullian, On Baptism, Chapter 12: "We, however, as having a more serious consideration of the matter, are not at all indifferent to the nature of baptism, nor do we regard it as a mere rite, but as a true and solemn act of salvation."

J.

Agreed with all except your last reference.

Tertullian was concerned about defending Christianity against Roman persecution, he was more concerned about heretics and their doctrines that might kill Christians’ souls, not merely their bodies.

He had already given in to Greek mythology and was convinced in immortal soulism, a false doctrine introduced to the body very early after the confirmed Apostles.

You do well to remain with the Apostles as they were approved of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ

F2F

 

[Johann]

The door is open for the moment but we are told it will close.

This is how to enter brother-while it is still Today-
Faith in Christ
John 14:6: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Entrance into Christ begins with faith in Him as the only way to salvation.

Repentance and Belief
Mark 1:15: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."
Repentance (turning away from sin) and belief in the gospel message are foundational for entering into Christ.

Baptism
Galatians 3:27: "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Baptism is the means by which believers are united with Christ and identified with His death, burial, and resurrection.

Being Born Again
John 3:3: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Being "born again" through the Spirit is necessary to enter into the kingdom of God, which is found in Christ.

Abiding in Christ
John 15:4-5: "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."
Continuous relationship with Christ-remaining in Him-is central to the believer’s life in Christ.

Confession of Jesus as Lord
Romans 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in His resurrection are essential steps for entering into Christ.

Being Sealed with the Holy Spirit
Ephesians 1:13: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."
The Holy Spirit seals believers in Christ, affirming their position in Him.

J.

 

[face2face]

We have already entered into the Spirit of Christ ,once we became Born Again.



View attachment 53527

Once a person is born of Water and the Spirit Word of God, which also cleanses us from Sin then yes you are being saved. Ephesian 5:26

F2F

 

[face2face]

It can never close m if your spirit has been birthed.

Do you understand the Living Spirit birth..if you don’t, then you can’t really claim what you have just taught..

We are Born Of God, His seed remains in us where?

His seed liveth and abideth forever in us..which can only come by divine, heart revelation .

Did you understand that scripture I posted?

This scripture isn’t something that you read into being, it comes by divine heart revelation just as his word says...it’s a Living spirit birth.

In Romans 8:16, though, Paul says, “The Spirit himself bears witness,” meaning that there is a special witness of the Holy Spirit to assure us that we are the children of God.

The door stands open to all here. The door will not always stand open. Luke 13:25.

 

[Ritajanice]

Once a person is born of Water and the Spirit Word of God, which also cleanses us from Sin then yes you are being saved. Ephesian 5:26

F2F

No, we are already saved from eternal damnation ..once our spirit has been reborn...Born Again = by supernatural , divine , heart, revelation ,just as Gods word says.,it’s a Living spirit birth, the seed that we have been Born Again of, is incorruptible / imperishable and can never die.

In Romans 8:16, though, Paul says, “The Spirit himself bears witness,” meaning that there is a special witness of the Holy Spirit to assure us that we are the children of God.

 

[face2face]

No, we are already saved from eternal damnation ..once our spirit has been reborn...Born Again = by supernatural , divine , heart, revelation ,just as Gods word says.,it’s a Living spirit birth, the seed that we have been Born Again of, is incorruptible / imperishable and can never die.

In Romans 8:16, though, Paul says, “The Spirit himself bears witness,” meaning that there is a special witness of the Holy Spirit to assure us that we are the children of God.

The assurance is by promise correct...no different for Christ himself Romans 4:20

 

[Johann]

Agreed with all except your last reference.

Tertullian was concerned about defending Christianity against Roman persecution, he was more concerned about heretics and their doctrines that might kill Christians’ souls, not merely their bodies.

He had already given in to Greek mythology and was convinced in immortal soulism, a false doctrine introduced to the body very early after the conformed Apostles.

You do well to remain with the Apostles as they were approved of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ

F2F

Let's refine this assertion-

Your statement about Tertullian raises several valid points but requires some clarification and context for accuracy.

Tertullian's Concern for Heresy: It is true that Tertullian was deeply concerned with defending Christianity, not only against Roman persecution but also against heretical teachings that he believed threatened the purity of the faith. He viewed heresy as a more dangerous threat than Roman oppression because heretical beliefs could lead souls away from salvation. Tertullian is well-known for his vehement opposition to Gnosticism, Marcionism, and other early heresies, and he wrote extensively to counter these movements (e.g., Against Marcion and Prescription Against Heretics). These writings often emphasize the danger of false teachings for the spiritual well-being of Christians.

Tertullian's Views on the Soul: Your claim that Tertullian had already adopted Greek mythology and the doctrine of the immortality of the soul requires more nuance. Tertullian was influenced by Greek philosophy, particularly Platonism, which believed in the immortality of the soul. However, Tertullian did not fully adopt all aspects of Greek mythology. He acknowledged that the soul is immortal, a view he argued in works like On the Soul, where he supported the idea of the soul's immortality and its accountability before God. However, his views on the soul diverged from Platonic thought in certain areas, as he also emphasized the bodily resurrection in contrast to some Greek philosophical teachings that saw the material body as less important than the soul.

The Influence of Greek Thought: While it is true that some elements of Greek thought, including ideas about the soul, had an influence on early Christian theology, it is important to recognize that Tertullian was often critical of over-reliance on Greek philosophy.

In fact, Tertullian famously asked, "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?"-suggesting that Christian thought should not be overly influenced by Greek philosophy. Nevertheless, the integration of Greek ideas about the soul into early Christian theology, including the immortality of the soul, became a common feature of later Christian thought, though not without criticism from theologians like Tertullian and others in the early Church.

Sources:

Tertullian's Apology and Prescription Against Heretics for his views on defending against heresy.
On the Soul for his thoughts on the immortality of the soul.
The Cambridge History of Christianity and Tertullian: A Historical and Theological Study by Robert E. M. Wyse for deeper context.


If you're not particularly interested in the Early Church Fathers (ECFs) prior to Augustine, I completely understand.

J.