I could quote extensively to prove otherwise but there will be no point in doing so.
What is so wrong with Calvinism ?
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I press L_S because I want to see him surrender his will to God (which is what he wants also, but believes he must wait and see if God has chosen him as one of the elect) and experience the joy of the rest of true grace and peace in Jesus.
There is such tragic irony in this statement. Because John Calvin, like Augustine before him, and all understanding Calvinists who have come after and understand the whole of God's Council as they did truly grasp how truly great God's love really is, what is the true breadth and length and height and depth (Ephesians 3) of God's love, and at least as any of us is capable, knowing the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge. The God that Jacobus Arminius, and Pelagius before him, and all Arminians who have come after is that they inadvertently make the love of God out to be far, far too small.
No Calvinist would say that the Gospel is limited in any way. Salvation, not the Gospel, is limited in the respect that God only issues His inward call by His Holy Spirit to some (His Elect) and not all. But the Gospel is not limited in any respect whatsoever.
Grace and peace to you.
Jesus called judas which exposes your above view is wrong- he was called and elect as an apostle/disciple. He performed the same miracles as the 11 too. Are you saying God elected judas/called him but did not love him ? Is that your position ?
Got Scripture for that ?
hope this helps !!!
Yeah, and Calvinism is not.
Well, Calvinists most assuredly affirm that the grace of God is eternally established by God through Christ. So really, you yourself wholly disqualify what you are saying.
Okay, and Calvinists would say precisely the opposite. Again, you yourself wholly disqualify what you are saying.
Not so at all. That is what Arminians believe. I wouldn't call it "theological deception," but rather a lack of understanding. Maybe that's what you mean, but in any case, it's very misdirected.
LOL! I'm an American. Does that make me a "cultist"? My goodness. Well, you're apparently an Arminian. Does that make you a "cultist"? Yeah, no. :) I do agree with you on some of those being cults, though. :)
Yeah, I hope they're not "seeing" what you're "seeing." :)
Grace and peace to you.[/QUOTE]
No. No, that is not my position, Christophany.
As for Judas himself, I would like to know where you see Judas to have performed any miracle. I'm not saying he didn't, at least not yet, but I would like to know where you see that.
That's... kind of my question to you... :)
I'm not so sure you do... :)
Grace and peace to you.
Here I will show you how calvinism reads their doctrine into a passage.
1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
As we see above the Apostle Paul says we are to pray for " ALL " people everywhere even for the " kings in authority" and then uses the same word in the same context of " ALL " people with Jesus giving His life as a ransom for all.
You cannot have ALL mean two different things in the context of the passage. That is once again being dishonest with the text and reading ones doctrine into the passage which is eisegesis. So all above includes Jesus being a ransom/sacrifice for all people, not some people as the "L" in limited atonement teaches with tulip. 1 John 2:2 teaches the same thing that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the "whole " world, not just believers sins.
hope this helps !!!
Mark 6
Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. 7 Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.
8 These were his instructions: “Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9 Wear sandals but not an extra shirt. 10 Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”
Even Barnes a calvinist does not allow his doctrine to interfere with the truth of the passage below
1 John 2:2 says - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
"But also for the sins of the whole world - The phrase "the sins of" is not in the original, but is not improperly supplied, for the connection demands it. This is one of the expressions occurring in the New Testament which demonstrate that the atonement was made for all people, and which cannot be reconciled with any other opinion. If he had died only for a part of the race, this language could not have been used. The phrase, "the whole world," is one which naturally embraces all people; is such as would be used if it be supposed that the apostle meant to teach that Christ died for all people; and is such as cannot be explained on any other supposition. If he died only for the elect, it is not true that he is the "propitiation for the sins of the whole world" in any proper sense, nor would it be possible then to assign a sense in which it could be true. This passage, interpreted in its plain and obvious meaning, teaches the following things:
(1) that the atonement in its own nature is adapted to all people, or that it is as much fitted to one individual, or one class, as another;
(2) that it is sufficient in merit for all; that is, that if anymore should be saved than actually will be, there would be no need of any additional suffering in order to save them;
(3) that it has no special adaptedness to one person or class more than another; that is, that in its own nature it did not render the salvation of one easier than that of another.
It so magnified the law, so honored God, so fully expressed the divine sense of the evil of sin in respect to all people, that the offer of salvation might be made as freely to one as to another, and that any and all might take shelter under it and be safe. Whether, however, God might not, for wise reasons, resolve that its benefits should be applied to a part only, is another question, and one which does not affect the inquiry about the intrinsic nature of the atonement. On the evidence that the atonement was made for all, see the 2 Corinthians 5:14 note, and Hebrews 2:9 "
hope this helps !!!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Or you could help someone of your creed who's struggling, instead of just joining him in the cheerleading.
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Rank mysticism and doubletalk
No child could understand predeterminism. Any gospel that is powerless to have mercy on sinners who had no choice but to be in eternal torments is strange fire kindled from the hellish torch of the adversary. And Ephesians 3 contains nothing to justify it.
More unlimited atonement/salvation passages.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
hope this helps !!!
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
hope this helps !!!
LOL! My goodness...
Sure. Yeah, any gospel of that sort is not the Gospel at all.
Sure.
Grace and peace to you.[/QUOTE]
We should not conflate sufficiency with efficacy.
Case in point. For sure, the atonement was made for all in that it was sufficient for all. But it was only made efficacious for God's elect. As Jesus Himself said:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30)
Grace and peace to you.
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There are no miracles here, Christophany, except those that the Holy Spirit would perform through their actions and words in possibly converting their hearts from stone to flesh. This is called evangelism, basically, and a foreshadowing of the authority we all have in Christ now ~ and mandate, actually ~ given by Jesus in what we call the Great Commission at the end of Matthew 28.
Grace and peace to you.
reformed1689
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
When I was in the Air Force many years ago I had a supervisor who was a Latter-day Saint, He was one of the kindest and upright gentlemen I've ever known. He had a large family to care for, but he was never too busy to go out of his way (and he was very insistent) to help my young and sickly pregnant wife and me in the ignorance of our youth. I'll never forget him. His name was Hubert L. Carver II.
Jesus didn’t mention the atonement in the passage you quoted. Your are conflating and equivocating.
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