What you fail to realize, brother, is that you and I are both holding to the fact that Messiah is Elohim/YHVH and instead of fighting me, walk with me.
What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God
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BeyondET
Well-Known Member
Hmm did you know that no where in the New Testament it is mentioned Jesus preforming a miracle in the Father's name yet He says has done works in the Father's name interesting verse.
John 10:25
Perhaps it's because Jesus / God is our ONLY Savior.
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
I've wondered about that statement and God's name, not sure if its mentioned in the NT but if I'm not mistaken it's in the OT? Johann mentioned some.
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
What benefit is it
Yahweh Rapha, “the God Who Heals,”
John 10
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me.
Yahweh Rapha, “the God Who Heals,”
John 10
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Your father begot another like unto himself. Same as all creation... Like begets like.
The Son was the express image of the Father. Imperfect humans beget imperfect images of themselves. But they are the same species of being. Would a perfect God beget anything that is not a perfect image of Himself? And a different species other than I AM WHO AM?
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And yet God the Father called God the Son "God". And God the Son called God the Holy Spirit "God". So you are promoting a lie and a myth. Why not stick to Bible truth?
But unto the Son he [God the Father] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God [the Father], hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Heb 1:8,9)
While Christians may not be able to explain THE FACT of the Trinity, they should have no problem in believing this FACT. So anyone who denies what God says is automatically a liar.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
These discussions pivot on various trinitarian groups whereby Jesus the Son is promoted as being not only of divine origin, which both camps adhere to, but also deity, equal to the Father in all things, versus oneness, or non -trinitarian, whereby Jesus is taught that while He is off divine origin, He is only human, and therefore not deity, and certainly not equal to the Father. I am sure there are various versions and perspectives to each side, but all having either no relation to the trinitarian creeds, or a precise acceptance of the creedal formulas.
Personally, I think the problem lies in the creedal formulaic folk going too far beyond scripture, and the oneness folk not going toward scripture enough. Thus I think the truth lies somewhere in between, with the full acceptance of everything scripture reveals concerning the Godhead and the nature(s) of both Father and Son, but with an inherent reluctance to venture beyond that revelation in order to come to conclusions that ultimately are nothing more than assumptions and maybe even presumptions.
I would add that the vehemence with which some take their stand, and the self assurance with which others respond, makes me wonder how anyone can be so certain they can dare explain how the Godhead is formed together.
The question really hinges on whether one believes the pre-incarnation existence of Christ, and if so, of what nature was He? I do think the evidence is strong to support the pre-existing nature of Christ, (for God sent), and Christ's own declaration that God is His Father in a manner beyond any creative sense but uniquely begotten of the same (express image) nature as He from whom He was begotten.
Personally, I think the problem lies in the creedal formulaic folk going too far beyond scripture, and the oneness folk not going toward scripture enough. Thus I think the truth lies somewhere in between, with the full acceptance of everything scripture reveals concerning the Godhead and the nature(s) of both Father and Son, but with an inherent reluctance to venture beyond that revelation in order to come to conclusions that ultimately are nothing more than assumptions and maybe even presumptions.
I would add that the vehemence with which some take their stand, and the self assurance with which others respond, makes me wonder how anyone can be so certain they can dare explain how the Godhead is formed together.
The question really hinges on whether one believes the pre-incarnation existence of Christ, and if so, of what nature was He? I do think the evidence is strong to support the pre-existing nature of Christ, (for God sent), and Christ's own declaration that God is His Father in a manner beyond any creative sense but uniquely begotten of the same (express image) nature as He from whom He was begotten.
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also that which is to be born shall be called holy, the Son of God.
Appreciate this, brakelite, but there is already a vehement opposition as to the pre-existence of Christ Jesus.
Jesus as the Shechinah
In the Bible, the Shechinah is the visible manifestation of the presence of God in which He descends to dwell among men. While the Hebrew form of the glory of the Lord is Kvod Adonai, the Greek title is Doxa Kurion. The Hebrew form Schechinah, from the root “shachan,” means “dwelling” while the Greek word “Skeinei” means to tabernacle.
The Shechinah glory is seen in the Tankah in places such as Gen.3:8; 23-24; Ex.3;1-5; 13:21-22; 14;19-20; 24; 16:6-12; 33:17-23; 34:5-9. In these Scriptures, the Shechinah is seen in a variety of visible manifestations such as light, fire, cloud, the Angel of the Lord, or a combination of all of these. The ultimate manifestation of the Shechinah was seen in the giving of the Torah at Mt. Sinai (Ex.19:16-20).
The Shechinah continued to dwell in the holy of holies in Tabernacle and the Temple (Ex.29:42-46; 40:34-38; 1 Kin.8:10-13). Upon the return of the Jewish people from the Babylonian captivity, the second temple was finished. However, the Shechinah was not present in this temple. Haggai 2:39 is a critical passage since it discusses that the Shechinah would return in an even different and more profound way. Therefore, in relation to the incarnation, the Shechinah takes on greater significance in John 1: 1-14. As John says, “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” As already stated, the Greek word “Skeinei” means to tabernacle. John 1:14 literally says,” the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.”
The story of Jesus has tremendous parallels to the Shechinah story in the Hebrew Bible. In the Hebrew Bible, the Shechinah would appear and disappear at certain times while eventually making a permanent home in the tabernacle and the temple; the Shechinah also departed from the Mount of Olives. Likewise, in the New Testament, Jesus as the visible manifestation of the Shechinah, also appeared and disappeared; He also departed from Israel from the Mount of Olives. (11)
Remember, the rabbis could speak of taking upon oneself the yoke of Torah or the yoke of the kingdom; Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me.” (Mt 11:29). Also, the rabbis could say that if two or three men sat together, having the words of Torah among them, the shekhina (God’s own presence) would dwell on them (M Avot 3:2) ; Jesus said, “Where two or three are gathered in my name, I will be among them” (12)
In the Bible, the Shechinah is the visible manifestation of the presence of God in which He descends to dwell among men. While the Hebrew form of the glory of the Lord is Kvod Adonai, the Greek title is Doxa Kurion. The Hebrew form Schechinah, from the root “shachan,” means “dwelling” while the Greek word “Skeinei” means to tabernacle.
The Shechinah glory is seen in the Tankah in places such as Gen.3:8; 23-24; Ex.3;1-5; 13:21-22; 14;19-20; 24; 16:6-12; 33:17-23; 34:5-9. In these Scriptures, the Shechinah is seen in a variety of visible manifestations such as light, fire, cloud, the Angel of the Lord, or a combination of all of these. The ultimate manifestation of the Shechinah was seen in the giving of the Torah at Mt. Sinai (Ex.19:16-20).
The Shechinah continued to dwell in the holy of holies in Tabernacle and the Temple (Ex.29:42-46; 40:34-38; 1 Kin.8:10-13). Upon the return of the Jewish people from the Babylonian captivity, the second temple was finished. However, the Shechinah was not present in this temple. Haggai 2:39 is a critical passage since it discusses that the Shechinah would return in an even different and more profound way. Therefore, in relation to the incarnation, the Shechinah takes on greater significance in John 1: 1-14. As John says, “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” As already stated, the Greek word “Skeinei” means to tabernacle. John 1:14 literally says,” the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.”
The story of Jesus has tremendous parallels to the Shechinah story in the Hebrew Bible. In the Hebrew Bible, the Shechinah would appear and disappear at certain times while eventually making a permanent home in the tabernacle and the temple; the Shechinah also departed from the Mount of Olives. Likewise, in the New Testament, Jesus as the visible manifestation of the Shechinah, also appeared and disappeared; He also departed from Israel from the Mount of Olives. (11)
Remember, the rabbis could speak of taking upon oneself the yoke of Torah or the yoke of the kingdom; Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me.” (Mt 11:29). Also, the rabbis could say that if two or three men sat together, having the words of Torah among them, the shekhina (God’s own presence) would dwell on them (M Avot 3:2) ; Jesus said, “Where two or three are gathered in my name, I will be among them” (12)
The Word/The Memra
In the Hebrew Bible, the “Word” is discussed in a manner that takes on an independent existence of its own. As seen in John 1:1-2, the “Word” has a unique relationship with God; all things were made through Him. In this passage, John is emphasizing that the Word is with God and yet God at the same time. Paul taught a similar theme in 1 Cor. 8:6 when he says “For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.”
There are other New Testament passages that communicate that the Word is Messiah Himself (Eph.3:17 and Col. 3:16; 1 Pet.1:3; John.8:31;15:17). There are also other passages in the Hebrew Bible that speak of the significance of the Word such as Ps. 33:6,“By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,” while in Ps.107:20 the divine word is sent on a mission: “He sent out his word and healed them, and delivered them from their destruction.” But why is the Christological title “Word” so significant in relation to Jewish monotheism in the first century?
In Judaism, one of the most common themes was that God was “untouchable,” or totally transcendent. Therefore, there had to be a way to describe a connection between God and his creation. (14)
Within Rabbinic thought, the way to provide the connection or link between God and his creation was what was called “The Word” or in Aramaic, the “Memra.” (15) The Targums, which were paraphrases of the Hebrew Scriptures play a significant role in how to understand the Memra. Since some Jewish people no longer spoke and understood Hebrew but grew up speaking Aramaic, they could only follow along in a public reading if they read from a Targum. The Aramic Targums employed the term “Memra” that translates into Greek as “Logos.” (16)
While John’s concept of the Logos is of a personal being (Christ), the Greeks thought of it as an impersonal rational principle. A good way to try to understand the term “Memra,” is to see what a passage in Genesis would have sounded like to a Jewish person hearing the public reading of a Targum. In Gen.3:8, most people who would have heard the Hebrew would have understood it as “And they heard the sound of the Word of the Lord God as He was walking in the garden.” (17) Therefore, it was not the Lord who was walking in the garden, it was the Memra’ (Word) of the Lord. The Word was not just an “it”; this Word was a him.” (18)
In the Hebrew Bible, the “Word” is discussed in a manner that takes on an independent existence of its own. As seen in John 1:1-2, the “Word” has a unique relationship with God; all things were made through Him. In this passage, John is emphasizing that the Word is with God and yet God at the same time. Paul taught a similar theme in 1 Cor. 8:6 when he says “For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.”
There are other New Testament passages that communicate that the Word is Messiah Himself (Eph.3:17 and Col. 3:16; 1 Pet.1:3; John.8:31;15:17). There are also other passages in the Hebrew Bible that speak of the significance of the Word such as Ps. 33:6,“By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,” while in Ps.107:20 the divine word is sent on a mission: “He sent out his word and healed them, and delivered them from their destruction.” But why is the Christological title “Word” so significant in relation to Jewish monotheism in the first century?
In Judaism, one of the most common themes was that God was “untouchable,” or totally transcendent. Therefore, there had to be a way to describe a connection between God and his creation. (14)
Within Rabbinic thought, the way to provide the connection or link between God and his creation was what was called “The Word” or in Aramaic, the “Memra.” (15) The Targums, which were paraphrases of the Hebrew Scriptures play a significant role in how to understand the Memra. Since some Jewish people no longer spoke and understood Hebrew but grew up speaking Aramaic, they could only follow along in a public reading if they read from a Targum. The Aramic Targums employed the term “Memra” that translates into Greek as “Logos.” (16)
While John’s concept of the Logos is of a personal being (Christ), the Greeks thought of it as an impersonal rational principle. A good way to try to understand the term “Memra,” is to see what a passage in Genesis would have sounded like to a Jewish person hearing the public reading of a Targum. In Gen.3:8, most people who would have heard the Hebrew would have understood it as “And they heard the sound of the Word of the Lord God as He was walking in the garden.” (17) Therefore, it was not the Lord who was walking in the garden, it was the Memra’ (Word) of the Lord. The Word was not just an “it”; this Word was a him.” (18)
Sources:
1. Skarsaune, O, In The Shadow of the Temple: Jewish Influences on Early Christianity (Downers Grove, ILL: Intervarsity Press, 2002), 335-36.
2. Berger, D, The Rebbe, The Messiah, And The Scandal Of Orthodox Indifference. Portland, Oregon: The Littman Library of Jewish Civilization. 2001, 171-173.
3. Skarsaune, In The Shadow of the Temple: Jewish Influences on Early Christianity. 320-337.
4. Holmgren, F.C., The Old Testament: The Significance of Jesus-Embracing Change-Maintaining Christian Identity. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publishing Co. 1999, 157.
5. Skarsaune, O. Incarnation: Myth or Fact? St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House 1991, 35-36.
6. This is available online at Jesus Christ, Name and Titles of - Meaning & Definition - Baker's Bible Dictionary
7. These issues were pointed out in Edwards, J.R., Is Jesus the Only Savior? Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publishing Group, 2005.
8. See Bock, D.L., Blasphemy and Exaltation in Judaism: The Charge Against Jesus in Mark 14:53-65. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998.
9. Craig, W.L., Reasonable Faith: Third Edition. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books, 2008, 307.
10. Ibid.
11. These points were laid out systematically in Fruchtenbaum, A.G, The Footsteps of Messiah: A Study of Prophetic Events. Tustin CA: Ariel Press, 1977, 409-432.
12. Skarsaune, In The Shadow of the Temple: Jewish Influences on Early Christianity, 331.
13. Skarsaune, Incarnation: Myth or Fact?, 131.
14. Brown, M. Theological Objections, vol 2 of Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Grand Rapids MI: Baker Books, 2000, 18.
15. Ibid.
16. Ibid.
17. Ibid.
18. Ibid.
19.
1. Skarsaune, O, In The Shadow of the Temple: Jewish Influences on Early Christianity (Downers Grove, ILL: Intervarsity Press, 2002), 335-36.
2. Berger, D, The Rebbe, The Messiah, And The Scandal Of Orthodox Indifference. Portland, Oregon: The Littman Library of Jewish Civilization. 2001, 171-173.
3. Skarsaune, In The Shadow of the Temple: Jewish Influences on Early Christianity. 320-337.
4. Holmgren, F.C., The Old Testament: The Significance of Jesus-Embracing Change-Maintaining Christian Identity. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publishing Co. 1999, 157.
5. Skarsaune, O. Incarnation: Myth or Fact? St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House 1991, 35-36.
6. This is available online at Jesus Christ, Name and Titles of - Meaning & Definition - Baker's Bible Dictionary
7. These issues were pointed out in Edwards, J.R., Is Jesus the Only Savior? Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publishing Group, 2005.
8. See Bock, D.L., Blasphemy and Exaltation in Judaism: The Charge Against Jesus in Mark 14:53-65. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998.
9. Craig, W.L., Reasonable Faith: Third Edition. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books, 2008, 307.
10. Ibid.
11. These points were laid out systematically in Fruchtenbaum, A.G, The Footsteps of Messiah: A Study of Prophetic Events. Tustin CA: Ariel Press, 1977, 409-432.
12. Skarsaune, In The Shadow of the Temple: Jewish Influences on Early Christianity, 331.
13. Skarsaune, Incarnation: Myth or Fact?, 131.
14. Brown, M. Theological Objections, vol 2 of Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Grand Rapids MI: Baker Books, 2000, 18.
15. Ibid.
16. Ibid.
17. Ibid.
18. Ibid.
19.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Jesus is in some sense God. I believe Jewish monotheism offers a better explanation of that sense than does later trinitarianism.
Well, I think of it this way... Jesus brings us to the Father. As mediator between God and man, it was necessary that He be both. IN Him and THROUGH Him man comes to the Father. Like a bridge, He bridges both man and the Divine.
Also not sure He could have risen from the dead if He weren't God. I would have to check the pertinent scriptures again, but think that is the reason the grave couldn't hold Him.
What are your thoughts on the question?
Just the truth....that we know who/what we worship and have our faith in. But why does there have to be something in it for us? It's not about us, but glorifying God.
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The “in-between,” I recall from an earlier conversation with you, being binitarianism.
“I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.”
The Apostles’ Creed | The Church of England
Did the Holy Spirit conceive Jesus or did the virgin Mary conceive Jesus?
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.”
The Apostles’ Creed | The Church of England
Did the Holy Spirit conceive Jesus or did the virgin Mary conceive Jesus?
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