What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Wrangler]

The same way that you hearing a person's voice life or in person is different from hearing it ... wait for it ... through a telephone.

I've referenced Deut 18:15-18 several times. Have you read it and understood how it applies to the word becoming flesh?

I don't see it. And I don't see how you miss John 1.

John 1 does not introduce the Messiah until v14. The only thing to see in John 1 up until that point is God, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature, where John mirrors God's plan from Creation culminating in him sending the chosen Redeemer for mankind.

You really do not see how Deut 18:15-18 is the prophecy of the words of God made flesh, the words of God put in mouth of a chosen/anointed among the people, referring to Jesus? Perhaps a fresh translation will help you connect the dots. Also, cross reference with John 1:45.

15 He will raise up from among your own people a prophet who will be like me.[a] Listen to him. 16 This is just what you asked Him for on the day you gathered at Mount Horeb: “Don’t make me listen to the voice of the Eternal my God anymore! And don’t make me look at that blazing fire! I’ll die!” 17 The Eternal told me, “They’re right. 18 I’ll send them another prophet like you from among their own people. I’ll put My words in the mouth of this prophet who will tell them everything I command him to say.
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 Voice


45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
John 1:45

 

[Brakelite]

Begetting (and conceiving) brings a being into existence.

I have no issue with that.

 

[Matthias]

I have no issue with that.

I’m happy to see there’s something we’re in agreement on.

I think we all have a tendency to focus on the things which we aren’t in agreement with. I’ve discussed this at some length with @theefaith. He has commented several times that he (a trinitarian, Roman Catholic) and I (a unitarian, Jewish monotheist) agree on a great many things. He sets our level of agreement at about 80%. It’s that last 20% that we’ve not been able to bridge, but we continue to work at it.

 

[RLT63]

John 1 does not introduce the Messiah until v14. The only thing to see in John 1 up until that point is God, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature, where John mirrors God's plan from Creation culminating in him sending the chosen Redeemer for mankind.

You really do not see how Deut 18:15-18 is the prophecy of the words of God made flesh, the words of God put in mouth of a chosen/anointed among the people, referring to Jesus? Perhaps a fresh translation will help you connect the dots. Also, cross reference with John 1:45.

15 He will raise up from among your own people a prophet who will be like me.[a] Listen to him. 16 This is just what you asked Him for on the day you gathered at Mount Horeb: “Don’t make me listen to the voice of the Eternal my God anymore! And don’t make me look at that blazing fire! I’ll die!” 17 The Eternal told me, “They’re right. 18 I’ll send them another prophet like you from among their own people. I’ll put My words in the mouth of this prophet who will tell them everything I command him to say.
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 Voice


45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
John 1:45

John is giving his version of a genealogy at the beginning of his gospel. He traces Jesus back to the beginning. The whole book of John is about Jesus, why would the opening verses be about anything else? A plain reading of the text explains who Jesus is and his relationship with the Father.

 

[Johann]

As Baker”s Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes:

“While kyrios was common as a polite, even honorific title for “sir” or “master, “calling Jesus “Lord” to imply divine associations or identity was by no means a convention readily adopted from the Roman world. In Jesus’ more Eastern but militantly monotheistic Jewish milieu, where the title’s application to humans to connote divinity was not only absent but anathema, the title is an eloquent tribute to the astonishing impression he made. It also points to the prerogatives he holds. Since Jesus is Lord, he shares with the Father qualities like deity ( Rom 9:5 ), preexistence ( John 8:58 ), holiness ( Heb 4:15 ), and compassion ( 1 John 4:9 ), to name just a few. He is co-creator ( Col 1:16 ) and co-regent, presiding in power at the Father’s right hand ( Acts 2:33 ; Eph 1:20 ; Heb 1:3 ), where he intercedes for God’s people ( Rom 8:34 ) and from whence, as the Creed states, he will return to judge the living and dead ( 2 Thess 1:7-8 ).” (6)

3. Jesus is given “The Name”

What is even more significant is the statement in Acts 4:12: “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other NAME under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” How could Jesus be declared as the only one whom God’s salvation is effected? In the ancient world, a name was not merely what someone was called, but rather the identification of the being and essence of its bearer.
James R. Edwards summarizes the importance of this issue:

“In the ancient world, a name was not merely what someone was called, but rather the identification of the being and essence of its bearer. To the Jewish people, an idol could not properly have a “name” because it has no being represented by the name (Is. 44:9-21). The “name” to which the apostles refer does not signify an event, but a person, in whom the authority and power of God was active in salvation. The saving activity of God was and is expressed in the name of Jesus Christ.The name of Jesus is thereby linked in the closest possible way to the name of God. “No other name” does not refer to a second name of God, but to the unity of God with Jesus, signifying one name, one nature, one saving activity. The shared nature of God and Jesus is signaled in the most striking way by the custom of the early church to pray to God in the name of Jesus.” (7)

So just as in the Hebrew Bible where the name of God represents the person of God and all that he is, so in the New Testament “the Name” represents all who Jesus is as Lord and Savior.

 

[Johann]

4. Jesus is the New Temple

According to Jewish law, the claim to be the Messiah was not a criminal, nor capital offense. Therefore, the claim to be the Messiah was not even a blasphemous claim. (8) Why was Jesus accused of blasphemy? According to Mark 14:62, Jesus affirmed the chief priests question that He is the Messiah, the Son of God, and the Coming Son of Man who would judge the world. This was considered a claim for deity since the eschatological authority of judgment was for God alone. Jesus provoked the indignation of his opponents because of His application of Daniel 7:13 and Psalm 110:1 to himself. Also, many parables, which are universally acknowledged by critical scholars to be authentic to the historical Jesus, show that Jesus believed himself to be able to forgive sins against God (Matt. 9:2; Mark 2: 1-12).

Forgiving sins was something that was designated for God alone (Exod. 34: 6-7; Neh.9:17; Dan. 9:9) and it was something that was done only in the Temple along with the proper sacrifice. So it can be seen that Jesus acts as if He is the Temple in person. In Mark 14:58, it says,”We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.’ The Jewish leadership knew that God was the one who was responsible for building the temple (Ex. 15:17; 1 En. 90:28-29).(9)

Also, God is the only one that is permitted to announce and threaten the destruction of the temple (Jer. 7:12-13; 26:4-6, 9;1 En.90:28-29). (10) It is also evident that one reasons Jesus was accused of blasphemy was because He usurped God’s authority by making himself to actually be God (Jn. 10:33, 36). Not only was this considered to be blasphemous, it was worthy of the death penalty (Matt. 26:63-66; Mk. 14:61-65). (10)

 

[Johann]

5. Jesus as the Shechinah

In the Bible, the Shechinah is the visible manifestation of the presence of God in which He descends to dwell among men. While the Hebrew form of the glory of the Lord is Kvod Adonai, the Greek title is Doxa Kurion. The Hebrew form Schechinah, from the root “shachan,” means “dwelling” while the Greek word “Skeinei” means to tabernacle.

The Shechinah glory is seen in the Tankah in places such as Gen.3:8; 23-24; Ex.3;1-5; 13:21-22; 14;19-20; 24; 16:6-12; 33:17-23; 34:5-9. In these Scriptures, the Shechinah is seen in a variety of visible manifestations such as light, fire, cloud, the Angel of the Lord, or a combination of all of these. The ultimate manifestation of the Shechinah was seen in the giving of the Torah at Mt. Sinai (Ex.19:16-20).

The Shechinah continued to dwell in the holy of holies in Tabernacle and the Temple (Ex.29:42-46; 40:34-38; 1 Kin.8:10-13). Upon the return of the Jewish people from the Babylonian captivity, the second temple was finished. However, the Shechinah was not present in this temple. Haggai 2:39 is a critical passage since it discusses that the Shechinah would return in an even different and more profound way. Therefore, in relation to the incarnation, the Shechinah takes on greater significance in John 1: 1-14. As John says, “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” As already stated, the Greek word “Skeinei” means to tabernacle. John 1:14 literally says,” the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.”

The story of Jesus has tremendous parallels to the Shechinah story in the Hebrew Bible. In the Hebrew Bible, the Shechinah would appear and disappear at certain times while eventually making a permanent home in the tabernacle and the temple; the Shechinah also departed from the Mount of Olives. Likewise, in the New Testament, Jesus as the visible manifestation of the Shechinah, also appeared and disappeared; He also departed from Israel from the Mount of Olives. (11)

Remember, the rabbis could speak of taking upon oneself the yoke of Torah or the yoke of the kingdom; Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me.” (Mt 11:29). Also, the rabbis could say that if two or three men sat together, having the words of Torah among them, the shekhina (God’s own presence) would dwell on them (M Avot 3:2) ; Jesus said, “Where two or three are gathered in my name, I will be among them” (12)

 

[Wrangler]

John is giving his version of a genealogy at the beginning of his gospel. He traces Jesus back to the beginning.

The beginning of Jesus ministry, not Creation.

The whole book of John is about Jesus

Specifically, The whole book of John is about Jesus being God’s Anointed not God incarnate, v20:31.

Don’t you realize that using the gospel contrary to the explicit purpose shows how the Bible does not teach the trinity?

 

[Johann]

Don’t you realize that using the gospel contrary to the explicit purpose shows how the Bible does not teach the trinity?

Please Wrangler, stop "wrangling" the holy writ

 

[Bob Estey]

I can't get anyone to answer this honest question. All I get back is because the Bible says so. But there must be a reason for it. What is it? Here I will give you a reason why he had to be a man.

Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

Now it's your turn. Anyone?

It's simple a question of whether or not Jesus is God in flesh. I've come to believe he is. It seems to me Matthew 1:23 suggests as much.

 

[RLT63]

It's simple a question of whether or not Jesus is God in flesh. I've come to believe he is. It seems to me Matthew 1:23 suggests as much.

Why Must Jesus Be both Human and Divine?

 

[Johann]

You really do not see how Deut 18:15-18 is the prophecy of the words of God made flesh, the words of God put in mouth of a chosen/anointed among the people, referring to Jesus? Perhaps a fresh translation will help you connect the dots. Also, cross reference with John 1:45.

Perhaps seeing it from a Jewish perspective might be of help?

 

[Johann]

Specifically, The whole book of John is about Jesus being God’s Anointed not God incarnate, v20:31.

Incorrect,....

Son_6:8 There are threescore melakhot (queens), and fourscore pilagshim (concubines), and alamot (young unmarried virgins) without number [T.N. Alamot is plural of almah, "virgin," alamot, "virgins;" see Shir HaShirim 1:3; Yeshayah 7:14; Bereshis 24:43; Shemot 2:8; Mishlei 30:19 where the word means explicitly or implicitly "virgin" and where "young woman" is not an adequate rendering, in this case, since the King was hardly interested in only young women in his harem, but demanded "virgins"; the older Jewish translations like Harkavy's so translated the word as "virgin" in this verse until it became politically incorrect to do so in later, more liberal Jewish translations into English].
OJB

Isa_7:14 Therefore Hashem Himself shall give you an ot (sign); Hinei, HaAlmah (the unmarried young virgin) shall conceive, and bear Ben, and shall call Shmo Immanu El (G-d is with us) [See extensive commentary in The Translator To The Reader, page vii].
OJB

Mat_1:23 HINEI, HAALMAH HARAH VYOLEDET BEN VKARAT SHMO IMMANU-EL (Behold, the Virgin will be with child and will bear Son and will call his name Immanu-El--Isa 7:14; cf page vii), which translated means G-d is with us.
OJB

...are you denying the Ha-Almah conception?

“The claim that Jesus is God incarnate is foundational to traditional Christianity but is one of the most difficult concepts for Jews to understand. Going back to early Israelite history, Jews have had a fundamental theological resistance to the idea of God becoming a man. The command to make no image or physical likeness of God has generally led Jews to prefer keeping the worship of God as an abstraction. Jews usually avoid concrete representations or physical symbols of God. It is held that to believe in such would be a departure from the idea of pure monotheism and would compromise the teaching of God’s incorporeality. Christians, however, point to theophanies in the Old Testament. These temporary physical manifestations of God, they claim, indicate that God did occasionally choose to manifest himself in human form to his people. At the end of the day, however, both Jews and Christians subscribe to monotheism. Though paradoxical and mysterious to many, most Christians in the creedal tradition would be comfortable describing themselves as Trinitarian monotheists.”-Wilson, Marvin R, Exploring Our Hebraic Heritage, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Ben Shapiro on the impossibility of the incarnation of the Messiah within Jewish thought

 

[Johann]

Why Must Jesus Be both Human and Divine?

THINKAPOLOGETICS.COM

Find this apologetics site, from a Jewish perspective, an tremendous source and wealth of information.

 

[Johann]

Also, cross reference with John 1:45.

Did you know... Mar_13:26 And then you will see the BEN HAADAM BA BAANANIM (the Son of Man [Moshiach] coming in clouds DANIEL 7:13-14) with gevurah rabbah (great power) and kavod (glory).
OJB
και τοτε οψονται τον υιον του ανθρωπου ερχομενον εν νεφελαις μετα δυναμεως πολλης και δοξης

...that the Son of man is also known as Elohim? As King of kings and Lord of lords?

By the way, this is for members who want to know more about our Lord and great God Jesus Christ

 

[Wrangler]

The Many Fallacies of Dualism

 

[RLT63]

The Many Fallacies of Dualism

Posting links are we?

 

[Johann]

The Many Fallacies of Dualism

Really? I will let the members decide...by the way...

 

[Johann]

Posting links are we?

He is denying the virgin birth of our Lord, brother, be careful, there are ditches [landmines] everywhere

 

[Wrangler]

Posting links are we?

You do. See how satisfying it is? LOL.