What are the two witnesses doing with the prostitute?

[Marty fox]

That is your assumption and I disagree with it. Again, and for the last time, the only children that it mentions the woman having are Christ Himself (Rev 12:5) and those who follow Him (Rev 12:17). That's a description of spiritual Israel, not earthly Israel. If you can show the woman as having any other children besides Jesus and His followers then you might have a point, but you have not done that.

I believe that I have so what do you think the description in verse one is?

Is it just a coincidence that it exactually matches the description in Gensis about Israel?

Let the bible interpret the bible

 

[Freedm]

I already told you. I am just baffled as to why you would ask me this right after I gave my understanding of Mystery Babylon. Did you read what I said or not? I'll just repeat what I already said.

The great city is referred to spiritually as Babylon, but also as "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11:8). So, in my view, where the great city Mystery Babylon is the direct spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem, earthly Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem, Rome, etc. are all harlots and those who were part of their wickedness all have Mystery Babylon as their mother just as heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of all believers (Galatians 4:26).

I've read your paragraph several times, and I still don't see where you state what it is. It's like you really want it to remain a mystery. Let's try to narrow it down. Do you think Mystery Babylon is a city? Or a group of people? Or a system of some sort? I feel like you're giving me the intro, but then failing to reveal your actual answer to me. Do you want me to guess?

I know you're saying it's "the direct spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem", but what does that mean? What is that? What is the direct spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem?

 

[Freedm]

You said it is symbolic that Jesus comes in the clouds . The hen you must also believe it is symbolic that Jesus ascended in the clouds because it is written that he would return as he left.
In the clouds

Ah, now I understand how you got there from here. I didn't notice that little detour road, but now I follow. Let me respond to that; I don't actually see a correlation between Jesus' ascension and the Lord coming with clouds under his feet, or even those of us going to meet those who are in the clouds.

When Jesus ascended, it seems pretty clear that this was a literal event, as it says "a cloud hid him from their view" (Acts 1:9), and that would make sense if he was literally ascending into the sky, as it was told. However, when we're talking about "those in the clouds", that's likely not a literal description because clouds are not always in the sky, so would "those in the clouds" only appear in certain parts of the world? What if my part of the world is under a clear blue sky that day? Am I out of luck? No, it just doesn't make sense that way, but a symbolic understanding here, of power and glory, always applies, so that makes a lot more sense. Also when it says things like "Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt" or "clouds are the dust beneath His feet" or "It will be a day of clouds" or "upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man", these are clearly not literal because even Jesus does not sit on a cloud, or have clouds follow him under his feet, because a cloud does not have a well defined surface, except in cartoons, that you can define where the top of the cloud is in order to sit on it. A cloud is just a mist. It may look tangible from a distance, but when you get closer, you realize that you can't define its edges. No, in these symbolic passages, clouds symbolize glory and power. That much is clear.

 

[Brakelite]

The 2 witnesses bring the light and glory of the truth of God to the world at a time of great apostasy. They are the word of God, the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) preached by the power of the Spirit in the time o of the latter rain within the remnant Church who cry aloud calling God's people out of Babylon.
“1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. ”
Revelation 18:1-5 KJV

 

[Brakelite]

Babylon and her daughters are fallen Christian churches. See my post here...

Who is Babylon of revelation chapter 17 ??

Revelation chapter 17 Babylon means - confusion. It comes from Satan. Talking about false religion. Some so caled scholars and higher critics, try to demonize Christians who have back bone to teach truth. Many Christians are not prepared for false Messiah, 6 th Trump. Some shepherds are...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Brakelite]

Protestant seminaries for decades now have been lying to their students, and we now have seasoned pastors teaching their congregations the same lies, and those pew sitters now repeating those same falsehoods on Christian forums and refusing to hear any other voices on the subject of the identity of Babylon, and the Antichrist.
Today, despite the advantages of modern scholarship, despite unlimited access to unprecedented amounts of historical data, despite claims to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and a part of an end time evangelical revival, and despite the impending fulfilment of all prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus, despite the freedoms so many have to pursue truth, seek truth, and proclaim truth, there is almost a complete absence of truth being taught from today's pulpits. There is almost universal confusion and unlimited disagreement throughout all Christendom.
Today we have 2 main avenues of prophetic interpretation. Futurism and preterism. And within those it is rare to find any 2 people who agree, on anything. Threads such as this is testament to this.
I'm going to say something that few will accept because of the depth of deception in today's churches. Both futurism and preterism were created by the true Antichrist in order to hide from the prophetic gaze of scripture. They were created by Jesuits in a bold and brazen and for the most part successful diversion away from the true identity of the Antichrist, as revealed by numerous pre- reformation and reformation Christians over several hundred years, but today denied by those daughters of the harlet Mother who are falling like flies through their infidelity to Christ their former Husband as they return to clinging to their Mother's skirts and embrace once again her lying doctrines, claiming that Rome isn't as far away as their protestant forefathers thought.
What ignorance of history. What ignorance of bible truth. What ignorance of prophecy. Those metaphorical souls under the altar however will not be crying out in vain. God will remember her iniquities. The genocide of unknown millions of Christian martyrs throughout the world will not be forgotten, despite the desperate attempts by so many to forget and rewrite history.

 

[tailgator]

Ah, now I understand how you got there from here. I didn't notice that little detour road, but now I follow. Let me respond to that; I don't actually see a correlation between Jesus' ascension and the Lord coming with clouds under his feet, or even those of us going to meet those who are in the clouds.

When Jesus ascended, it seems pretty clear that this was a literal event, as it says "a cloud hid him from their view" (Acts 1:9), and that would make sense if he was literally ascending into the sky, as it was told. However, when we're talking about "those in the clouds", that's likely not a literal description because clouds are not always in the sky, so would "those in the clouds" only appear in certain parts of the world? What if my part of the world is under a clear blue sky that day? Am I out of luck? No, it just doesn't make sense that way, but a symbolic understanding here, of power and glory, always applies, so that makes a lot more sense. Also when it says things like "Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt" or "clouds are the dust beneath His feet" or "It will be a day of clouds" or "upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man", these are clearly not literal because even Jesus does not sit on a cloud, or have clouds follow him under his feet, because a cloud does not have a well defined surface, except in cartoons, that you can define where the top of the cloud is in order to sit on it. A cloud is just a mist. It may look tangible from a distance, but when you get closer, you realize that you can't define its edges. No, in these symbolic passages, clouds symbolize glory and power. That much is clear.

The scripture doesnt say Jesus will be standing on a cloud.It literally says he will be coming in the clouds.

Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



You say that Jesus literally ascended into heaven into a cloud.
It is written that he will return in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
That would be literally coming in a cloud just as Jesus said in the gospel.



"this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe that I have so what do you think the description in verse one is?

Is it just a coincidence that it exactually matches the description in Gensis about Israel?

Let the bible interpret the bible

There isn't just one Israel and, again, the only children it says that she has are Jesus Himself (Rev 12:5) and those who belong to Him (Rev 12:17). Do you see any reference to any other children that the woman has? I don't. I don't know why you won't address this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've read your paragraph several times, and I still don't see where you state what it is. It's like you really want it to remain a mystery.

Not at all. What don't you understand about my saying that it's the direct spiritual opposite of the new Jerusalem? Do you not know what new Jerusalem is? It says it is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9). The bride of Christ. The church. The new Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem referenced in verses like Galatians 4:26 and Hebrews 12:22. Paul said it is "the mother of us all" (Gal 4:26). In contrast to that, Mystery Babylon is the mother of all harlots (Rev 17:5). So, all believers are spiritual citizens of the holy city, new Jerusalem, while all unbelievers are spiritual citizens of the great city Mystery Babylon.

If you still don't understand how I see Mystery Babylon after this, then it's hopeless and we need to just move on.

 

[Freedm]

The scripture doesnt say Jesus will be standing on a cloud.It literally says he will be coming in the clouds.

Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



You say that Jesus literally ascended into heaven into a cloud.
It is written that he will return in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
That would be literally coming in a cloud just as Jesus said in the gospel.



"this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Jesus is described as sitting on a cloud in Revelation 14.

Revelation 14:14-16
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[b] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Clearly, this is symbolic language.

The scene of Jesus ascending after his resurrection, says a cloud hid him from their view. So it never says that he "will be coming in a cloud". You made that part up. I'm not even sure what that would mean, to be honest. If you wanted to claim that he would return exactly the way he left, then you could argue that he would ascend through a cloud, so that the cloud first hides him from our view, and then as he comes through the cloud he is revealed, but that's only if you want to be uber dogmatic about the phrase "in like manner". I don't think there's any requirement that there be clouds in the sky on that day.

 

[Freedm]

Not at all. What don't you understand about my saying that it's the direct spiritual opposite of the new Jerusalem? Do you not know what new Jerusalem is? It says it is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9). The bride of Christ. The church. The new Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem referenced in verses like Galatians 4:26 and Hebrews 12:22. Paul said it is "the mother of us all" (Gal 4:26). In contrast to that, Mystery Babylon is the mother of all harlots (Rev 17:5). So, all believers are spiritual citizens of the holy city, new Jerusalem, while all unbelievers are spiritual citizens of the great city Mystery Babylon.

If you still don't understand how I see Mystery Babylon after this, then it's hopeless and we need to just move on.

Ah, I get what you mean now. You're saying that since all believers are the new Jerusalem, that means all unbelievers are mystery Babylon. Why didn't you just say so?

 

[Freedm]

Protestant seminaries for decades now have been lying to their students, and we now have seasoned pastors teaching their congregations the same lies, and those pew sitters now repeating those same falsehoods on Christian forums and refusing to hear any other voices on the subject of the identity of Babylon, and the Antichrist.
Today, despite the advantages of modern scholarship, despite unlimited access to unprecedented amounts of historical data, despite claims to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and a part of an end time evangelical revival, and despite the impending fulfilment of all prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus, despite the freedoms so many have to pursue truth, seek truth, and proclaim truth, there is almost a complete absence of truth being taught from today's pulpits. There is almost universal confusion and unlimited disagreement throughout all Christendom.
Today we have 2 main avenues of prophetic interpretation. Futurism and preterism. And within those it is rare to find any 2 people who agree, on anything. Threads such as this is testament to this.
I'm going to say something that few will accept because of the depth of deception in today's churches. Both futurism and preterism were created by the true Antichrist in order to hide from the prophetic gaze of scripture. They were created by Jesuits in a bold and brazen and for the most part successful diversion away from the true identity of the Antichrist, as revealed by numerous pre- reformation and reformation Christians over several hundred years, but today denied by those daughters of the harlet Mother who are falling like flies through their infidelity to Christ their former Husband as they return to clinging to their Mother's skirts and embrace once again her lying doctrines, claiming that Rome isn't as far away as their protestant forefathers thought.
What ignorance of history. What ignorance of bible truth. What ignorance of prophecy. Those metaphorical souls under the altar however will not be crying out in vain. God will remember her iniquities. The genocide of unknown millions of Christian martyrs throughout the world will not be forgotten, despite the desperate attempts by so many to forget and rewrite history.

I wanted to give you a half like, but I can only give you a full like, so I gave you a full like, even though I only agree with half of what you said. I like your style, and I like your post, but this notion of an anti-Christ is exactly the kind of deception you're railing against. Ironic, isn't it?

Having said that, you speak as if you know "the true identity of the antichrist". Just because I'm a curious guy, and I enjoy the banter, I'd love to know who you think the antichrist is. Why don't you tell us?

 

[Freedm]

I believe that I have so what do you think the description in verse one is?

Is it just a coincidence that it exactually matches the description in Gensis about Israel?

Let the bible interpret the bible

Marty, I just have to say, and I can't be the only one, but the guy in your avatar picture, who I can only assume is you, looks like Marty McFly, played by Michael J. Fox, who also lived in Vancouver, and so every time I see your name Marty Fox, and that avatar picture, I think of Marty McFly. That is all.

 

[tailgator]

The scene of Jesus ascending after his resurrection, says a cloud hid him from their view. So it never says that he "will be coming in a cloud". You made that part up. I'm not even sure what that would mean, to be honest. If you wanted to claim that he would return exactly the way he left, then you could argue that he would ascend through a cloud, so that the cloud first hides him from our view, and then as he comes through the cloud he is revealed, but that's only if you want to be uber dogmatic about the phrase "in like manner". I don't think there's any requirement that there be clouds in the sky on that day.

It's very difficult to communicate with people who are ignorant of scripture .The fact that you say I made up the word of God is ridiculous


You say he doesn't come with the clouds .
This is what Jesus says.


"they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven "

Mathew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.




Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.




Before you claim that someone is just making things up,you should at least search the scripture before accusing someone of being dishonest.Im actually one of the most honest people you would ever meet.

"they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven "

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ah, I get what you mean now. You're saying that since all believers are the new Jerusalem, that means all unbelievers are mystery Babylon. Why didn't you just say so?

LOL. I did say "all believers are spiritual citizens of the holy city, new Jerusalem, while all unbelievers are spiritual citizens of the great city Mystery Babylon.". Did you miss that? Anyway, glad to know that you now understand how I view Mystery Babylon.

 

[Freedm]

It's very difficult to communicate with people who are ignorant of scripture .The fact that you say I made up the word of God is ridiculous


You say he doesn't come with the clouds .
This is what Jesus says.


"they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven "

Mathew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.




Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.




Before you claim that someone is just making things up,you should at least search the scripture before accusing someone of being dishonest.Im actually one of the most honest people you would ever meet.

"they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven "

Ah, yes, but now you're back to quoting symbolic language. I thought we were talking about Jesus returning "in like manner", in which Jesus ascended until a cloud hid him from their view. Didn't you claim that verse as proof that he would return in a cloud? Yes, I'm pretty sure you did. Regardless, look at Matthew 24. It even tells you straight up that the clouds mean "power and great glory". That's the symbolism of the clouds. He's not actually going to be sitting on water vapour. That would be silly.

 

[Freedm]

LOL. I did say "all believers are spiritual citizens of the holy city, new Jerusalem, while all unbelievers are spiritual citizens of the great city Mystery Babylon.". Did you miss that? Anyway, glad to know that you now understand how I view Mystery Babylon.

Well, that was when I finally understood what you meant, when you said that part.

 

[tailgator]

Ah, yes, but now you're back to quoting symbolic language. I thought we were talking about Jesus returning "in like manner", in which Jesus ascended until a cloud hid him from their view. Didn't you claim that verse as proof that he would return in a cloud? Yes, I'm pretty sure you did. Regardless, look at Matthew 24. It even tells you straight up that the clouds mean "power and great glory". That's the symbolism of the clouds. He's not actually going to be sitting on water vapour. That would be silly.

No,I'm quoting the word of God where Jesus said people will see him coming in the clouds of heaven.

You won't believe his testimony.
You didn't even know Jesus had said it because you said I made it up.


Mathew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Your arguing against Jesus testimony and you didn't even know he had said it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, that was when I finally understood what you meant, when you said that part.

Right. But, even before that in my previous post I did say "the great city Mystery Babylon is the direct spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem, earthly Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem, Rome, etc. are all harlots and those who were part of their wickedness all have Mystery Babylon as their mother just as heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of all believers". Since I was saying they are directly opposite and said the new heavenly Jerusalem is "the mother of all believers" I thought you would understand that I was saying Mystery Babylon is the mother of all unbelievers since that is directly the opposite of saying the new Jerusalem is the mother of all believers. Anyway....moving on.

 

[tailgator]

Ah, yes, but now you're back to quoting symbolic language. I thought we were talking about Jesus returning "in like manner", in which Jesus ascended until a cloud hid him from their view. Didn't you claim that verse as proof that he would return in a cloud? Yes, I'm pretty sure you did. Regardless, look at Matthew 24. It even tells you straight up that the clouds mean "power and great glory". That's the symbolism of the clouds. He's not actually going to be sitting on water vapour. That would be silly.

You should ask for the holy Ghost so you would have someone remind you of Jesus word.

You will be able to remember the word of God because he will remind you.