What are the two witnesses doing with the prostitute?

[tailgator]

You ask because you do not know. But I have told you what is true by God.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

So you do blame God for everything.
Anytime someone is decieved,you blame God.Anytime someone is murdered ,you blame God.

 

[tailgator]

That's a weird response to what I said. I told you what I believe is symbolic language, and now you want to imply that I believe everything is symbolic? Are you trying to change the topic? Do you want to talk about Jesus' ascension now? Cause I thought we were talking about judgment day.

You said it is symbolic that Jesus comes in the clouds . The hen you must also believe it is symbolic that Jesus ascended in the clouds because it is written that he would return as he left.
In the clouds

 

[tailgator]

I know this post was not aimed at me, but these kinds of accusations serve only to anger your target. Not helpful.

I was right..
He blames God for everything.

 

[ScottA]

So you do blame God for everything.
Anytime someone is decieved,you blame God.Anytime someone is murdered ,you blame God.

You speak from your misunderstanding. I said nothing of the sort, nothing that you have [falsely accused] me of.

 

[tailgator]

You speak from your misunderstanding. I said nothing of the sort, nothing that you have [falsely accused] me of.

You say it is God doing the killing when the two witnesses kill.

You blamed God for all the suffering they cause.

 

[ScottA]

You say it is God doing the killing when the two witnesses kill.

You blamed God for all the suffering they cause.

False accusations again.

I blamed no one. You, on the other hand blamed me (repeatedly).

To the contrary, I stated what is true from God, and quoted Isaiah as confirmation. Which, apparently, you reject.

So, let it be written.

 

[tailgator]

False accusations again.

I blamed no one. You, on the other hand blamed me (repeatedly).

To the contrary, I stated what is true from God, and quoted Isaiah as confirmation. Which, apparently, you reject.

So, let it be written.

You grossly misunderstand.

It is not the two witnesses who kill those who want to harm them, it is God Himself.

All people are condemned to die already. That passage just means those who go against God's plans and His witnesses "will surely die." This is nothing new, but has been since the beginning. The fact that it is restated in Revelation is a reminder a confirmation to the wicked, and an assurance to those who witness for Christ that God is for those who are for Him, but against those who are against Him and those who are his.

Why you lie for Scott?

You said it is God himself who kills the enemies of the two witnesses.
Then you call me a false accusor when right there are your lying words.


You are the false accusor and you lied.
You blame God when the two witnesses kill someone.

 

[Marty fox]

Jesus Himself. Please read the text more carefully.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The church consists of Jesus as the cornerstone and includes all of His followers (Eph 2:19-22). Revelation 12 is alluding to that in a symbolic way. The only children of the Revelation 12 woman are Jesus Himself (Rev 12:5) and those who belong to Jesus (Rev 12:17).


I believe all the time periods referenced in the book of Revelation are symbolic, so I believe the time, times and half a time is a reference to the NT time period. The gates of hell will not prevail against the church (Matt 16:18), which is what the woman represents.


Yes. I find the idea that the harlot Babylon is the same woman as described in Revelation 12 to be completely ridiculous

Jesus Himself. Please read the text more carefully.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The church consists of Jesus as the cornerstone and includes all of His followers (Eph 2:19-22). Revelation 12 is alluding to that in a symbolic way. The only children of the Revelation 12 woman are Jesus Himself (Rev 12:5) and those who belong to Jesus (Rev 12:17).


I believe all the time periods referenced in the book of Revelation are symbolic, so I believe the time, times and half a time is a reference to the NT time period. The gates of hell will not prevail against the church (Matt 16:18), which is what the woman represents.


Yes. I find the idea that the harlot Babylon is the same woman as described in Revelation 12 to be completely ridiculous.

To clarify I’m not a preterist but a partial preterist

If the woman is represents heavenly Jerusalem then how do you explain the description of her in revelation 12:1?

Revelation 12:1
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head

The sign described above is showing us that the woman in this verse is the nation of Israel and takes us back to Josephs dream in.

Genesis 37:9-10
9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

This verse takes us from the last book in the bible Revelation to the first book in the bible of the bible Genesis. Jacob is Joseph’s father and his name was changed to Israel and he is the sun Rachel Joseph’s mother is the moon Josephs eleven brothers are the eleven stars and Joseph is the twelfth star.

The bible clearly shows us that the woman represents Israel. Jesus came from national Israel and so did the church but the church is spiritual Israel thats why Israel is described two different ways in the verse below

Roman 11:26: And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob

Jesus the deliverer will come from Zion (national Israel) He will remove godlessness for Jacob (spiritual Israel)

 

[tailgator]

To clarify I’m not a preterist but a partial preterist

If the woman is represents heavenly Jerusalem then how do you explain the description of her in revelation 12:1?

Revelation 12:1
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head

The sign described above is showing us that the woman in this verse is the nation of Israel and takes us back to Josephs dream in.

Genesis 37:9-10
9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

This verse takes us from the last book in the bible Revelation to the first book in the bible of the bible Genesis. Jacob is Joseph’s father and his name was changed to Israel and he is the sun Rachel Joseph’s mother is the moon Josephs eleven brothers are the eleven stars and Joseph is the twelfth star.

The bible clearly shows us that the woman represents Israel. Jesus came from national Israel and so did the church but the church is spiritual Israel thats why Israel is described two different ways in the verse below

Roman 11:26: And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob

Jesus the deliverer will come from Zion (national Israel) He will remove godlessness for Jacob (spiritual Israel)

Let's not forget,it was the king of the Jews(Herod)who sought to kill the child as soon as he was born.

Someone is going to flee out of Israel ,but it's not going to be the person who is ruling over them in the land of Israel.


Jeremiah 51:6
Flee from Babylon! Run for your lives! Do not be destroyed because of her sins. It is time for the LORD’s vengeance; he will repay her what she deserves.


They will be fleeing into the wilderness when the mark of the beast is given.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To clarify I’m not a preterist but a partial preterist

If the woman is represents heavenly Jerusalem then how do you explain the description of her in revelation 12:1?

Revelation 12:1
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head

The sign described above is showing us that the woman in this verse is the nation of Israel and takes us back to Josephs dream in.

Genesis 37:9-10
9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

This verse takes us from the last book in the bible Revelation to the first book in the bible of the bible Genesis. Jacob is Joseph’s father and his name was changed to Israel and he is the sun Rachel Joseph’s mother is the moon Josephs eleven brothers are the eleven stars and Joseph is the twelfth star.

The bible clearly shows us that the woman represents Israel. Jesus came from national Israel and so did the church but the church is spiritual Israel thats why Israel is described two different ways in the verse below

Roman 11:26: And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob

Jesus the deliverer will come from Zion (national Israel) He will remove godlessness for Jacob (spiritual Israel)

The woman is spiritual Israel, not national Israel. Again, her only children are Jesus Himself (Revelation 12:5) and those who follow Him (Revelation 12:17). That's it. That does not describe national Israel.

Are you forgetting that Revelation is a New Testament book and not an Old Testament book? The book is about Jesus and His church, not about national Israel. As for the twelve stars, I would understand them similar to this:

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Notice that this is describing the holy Jerusalem (heavenly Jerusalem) and not earthly Jerusalem. In the book of Revelation, stars represent angels or messengers (Revelation 1:20). This says that the twelve angels represent "the twelve tribes of the children of Israel". That's spiritual Israel, not national Israel, because this is a description of heavenly Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem.

The foundation of the church is the apostles and prophets with Jesus as the cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22), so that's why it says the city has twelve foundations with the names of the twelves apostles of the Lamb in them.

 

[Marty fox]

The woman is spiritual Israel, not national Israel. Again, her only children are Jesus Himself (Revelation 12:5) and those who follow Him (Revelation 12:17). That's it. That does not describe national Israel.

Are you forgetting that Revelation is a New Testament book and not an Old Testament book? The book is about Jesus and His church, not about national Israel. As for the twelve stars, I would understand them similar to this:

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Notice that this is describing the holy Jerusalem (heavenly Jerusalem) and not earthly Jerusalem. In the book of Revelation, stars represent angels or messengers (Revelation 1:20). This says that the twelve angels represent "the twelve tribes of the children of Israel". That's spiritual Israel, not national Israel, because this is a description of heavenly Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem.

The foundation of the church is the apostles and prophets with Jesus as the cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22), so that's why it says the city has twelve foundations with the names of the twelves apostles of the Lamb in them.

But that doesn’t answer the question about the description going back to Genesis

Revelation is the revelation of Jesus as in who He is and what He did. Jesus is God and He ushered in the new covenant thus Revelation is a book of transition from earthly Jerusalem to heavenly Jerusalem from the old covenant to the new covenant

 

[Marty fox]

The woman is spiritual Israel, not national Israel. Again, her only children are Jesus Himself (Revelation 12:5) and those who follow Him (Revelation 12:17). That's it. That does not describe national Israel.

Are you forgetting that Revelation is a New Testament book and not an Old Testament book? The book is about Jesus and His church, not about national Israel. As for the twelve stars, I would understand them similar to this:

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Notice that this is describing the holy Jerusalem (heavenly Jerusalem) and not earthly Jerusalem. In the book of Revelation, stars represent angels or messengers (Revelation 1:20). This says that the twelve angels represent "the twelve tribes of the children of Israel". That's spiritual Israel, not national Israel, because this is a description of heavenly Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem.

The foundation of the church is the apostles and prophets with Jesus as the cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22), so that's why it says the city has twelve foundations with the names of the twelves apostles of the Lamb in them.

I didn’t just say that the woman represented earthly Israel in verse one I showed it according to scripture

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didn’t just say that the woman represented earthly Israel in verse one I showed it according to scripture

What you haven't shown is that the woman has any other offspring besides Jesus (Rev 12:5) and those who follow Jesus (Rev 12:17). I'm basing my view on what the text itself tells us about who her offspring are.

 

[tailgator]

What you haven't shown is that the woman has any other offspring besides Jesus (Rev 12:5) and those who follow Jesus (Rev 12:17). I'm basing my view on what the text itself tells us about who her offspring are.

Her offspring are the ones who don't flee from the beast.

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


They dont seek to save their lives.

 

[Freedm]

Why are you equating the way we talk with scripture?

Because it's God's word! My goodness. How can you try to equate God's word with every day conversation that humans have? That makes no sense.

The Bible was not written by God. It is not God's word. The only words God ever wrote for us are the ten commandments. The rest of the Bible was written by men, just like us, and that why I equate the way we talk with scripture. God did not possess their bodies and control their hands, their pens, or their minds. They were inspired by God to write it, but they still wrote it, and they chose what to write. It was written by men, for men. If it was written by God, there would be no errors and no contradictions, but there are, so your assertion holds no water.

 

[Freedm]

Do you not think all scripture is inspired by God as Paul says it is (2 Tim 3:16-17)?

It is inspired by God, not written by God. Just like I was inspired by my daughter to write a poem. She inspired me, but she did not write it. Surely you know the meaning of the word "inspired".

 

[Freedm]

A city includes its people, of course. You think it refers to the people of an earthly city. My point stands.

It refers to people, in a way, yes, but more specifically, the people of a covenant. Also, I believe the harlot (old Jerusalem) includes all Israelites of the old covenant, not just those who lived in the city of Jerusalem.

Yes, we can agree on that. I don't think we will agree on much else.

Excellent. We are making progress.

A mother obviously gives birth to children. The great city is referred to spiritually as Babylon, but also as "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11:8). So, in my view, where the great city Mystery Babylon is the direct spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem, earthly Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem, Rome, etc. are all harlots and those who were part of their wickedness all have Mystery Babylon as their mother just as heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of all believers (Galatians 4:26).

So, in your opinion, what is "Mystery Babylon"?

 

[Marty fox]

What you haven't shown is that the woman has any other offspring besides Jesus (Rev 12:5) and those who follow Jesus (Rev 12:17). I'm basing my view on what the text itself tells us about who her offspring are.

But your not basing of the whole text because you ignore verse one you are only basing of some of the text.

Verse one is the symbolic description of the woman which was literal Israel

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But your not basing of the whole text because you ignore verse one you are only basing of some of the text.

Verse one is the symbolic description of the woman which was literal Israel

That is your assumption and I disagree with it. Again, and for the last time, the only children that it mentions the woman having are Christ Himself (Rev 12:5) and those who follow Him (Rev 12:17). That's a description of spiritual Israel, not earthly Israel. If you can show the woman as having any other children besides Jesus and His followers then you might have a point, but you have not done that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Excellent. We are making progress.

LOL. Wow, we agree on one things and disagree on everything else. If you want to think that's progress, then...okay.

So, in your opinion, what is "Mystery Babylon"?

I already told you. I am just baffled as to why you would ask me this right after I gave my understanding of Mystery Babylon. Did you read what I said or not? I'll just repeat what I already said.

The great city is referred to spiritually as Babylon, but also as "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11:8). So, in my view, where the great city Mystery Babylon is the direct spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem, earthly Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem, Rome, etc. are all harlots and those who were part of their wickedness all have Mystery Babylon as their mother just as heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of all believers (Galatians 4:26).