What are the two witnesses doing with the prostitute?

[ScottA]

In the meantime,the two witnesses torment people and kill people in Jesus name.

You believe christians are supposed to torment people for Jesus?


If you believe that is becoming one then how many people have you killed?

You are in error. That is not at all what is written or is happening.

 

[ScottA]

Why do so many "christians" teach that it is good to kill and torment other people?

Jesus did not command anyone to do that for him.

Jesus tells his witnesses to preach the gospel but some people preach his witnesses are supposed to kill people .

It's ridiculous.

Why do you have this twisted impression of Christians giving their testimony? Are you a mental health patient?

Giving one's testimony of salvation in Christ--is not "killing people."

 

[Marty fox]

100%. All the references are clear, and tie things together nicely. It seems so obvious now, but there was a time when I too was confused about the harlot. I don't know why it's so hard to see.

p.s. I'm not sure why but this board is replacing my word "c o n f u s e d" with an emoji. Is there a way to tell it to stop doing that?

Thanks for the post

Im not sure about the emoji question maybe message the admins

 

[tailgator]

You are in error. That is not at all what is written or is happening.

Yes .the two witnesses torment and kill people.
The reason everyone is happy they are dead is because they spend all their time tormenting people.

Revelation 11
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The same time the saints are persecuted and killed for their testimony of Jesus,these two prophets go around tormenting and killing people and you believe they are good guys .

 

[tailgator]

Why do you have this twisted impression of Christians giving their testimony? Are you a mental health patient?

Giving one's testimony of salvation in Christ--is not "killing people."

Because the word of God says they torment and kill people.

Revelation 11
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


You think because a commanding officer is a Christian he can give the command to fire and kill people and it's good?

Where does Jesus tell his followers to torment and kill people in the gospel?


Revelation 11
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Where does Jesus tell his followers to torment people?




The prophet that speaks lies kills people for 42 months.

Revelation 13
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[tailgator]

The beast kills.
The false prophet kills .
The two witnesses kill .

They all kill for 42 months
The exact same 42 months.

And some people say if you are a witness of Jesus ,you are good if you kill and torment people.

 

[Marty fox]

I understand that some traits of mystery Babylon are similar to ancient Jerusalem, but it seems you ignored my points completely, as I don't see that you addressed them anywhere here.

Jerusalem does not fit the whole description of Mystery Babylon. History did not end in 70 AD and Revelation is not a book that only talks about what happened until 70 AD.

As I said, which you didn't address, the great city Mystery Babylon is the mother of ALL harlots (Rev 17:5). That does not describe Jerusalem, which is just one of the many harlots with Babylon as their mother, including ancient Sodom and Egypt (Revelation 11:8) and earthly Babylon.

Also, Jerusalem never reigns over the kings of the earth (Rev 17:18).

Jerusalem was never "hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a case of EVERY hateful and unclean bird" (Rev 18:2).

Not "ALL nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of" Jerusalem's fornication.

Please address these points instead of merely telling me how Jerusalem shares some traits with Mystery Babylon, as I already know and don't deny, while not addressing the fact that some of Mystery Babylon's other traits do not describe Jerusalem.

As I said, the great city Mystery Babylon is the direct spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem. All believers are citizens of the holy city, New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22, Gal 4:26) while all unbelievers are citizens of the great city, Mystery Babylon.

First I never said that history ended in 70AD or that revelation is only about what happened in 70AD because I don’t believe that

To take these things literal no nation can fulfill all of what is stated and it’s not literal Jerusalem but apostate Israel that the bible reveals is mystery Babylon the great

Instead of sticking to your beliefs why don’t you believe who Jesus showed us Babylon the great to be in point 10?

Revelation 18:24
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Matthew 23:35
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Jerusalem was Gods chosen city His capital of the world and Gods presence actually resided in the temple so what city ruled the world?

 

[Marty fox]

I just have to tell it like it on this one. This interpretation of Revelation 12 is terrible. The woman of Revelation 12 is not earthly Jerusalem. That's impossible. Her only children are Jesus Himself and "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 12:17). The woman represents heavenly Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem, since her children are Christ and those who belong to Christ.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Revelation 12 woman and the great prostitute woman are the antithesis of each other! To equate them is ludicrous!

Preterism is a false end times doctrinal system that you should disregard and abandon. The book of Revelation is about Jesus and His church and the enemies of Jesus and His church. It covers the time since Christ's birth up to His future second coming and beyond (new heavens and new earth).

The woman in Revelation 12 represents Israel the description in verse one refers back the Josephs dream back in Genesis which proves it.

If the woman's only offspring was Jesus and the saints then how do you explain verse 17?

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

If the rest of her offspring are those who hold fast to their testimony of Jesus then who exactly was her other offspring?

Also what happens to her after she is taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach?

Is it just an coincidence that the woman is taken out to the wilderness and that we also find a woman in the wilderness in chapter 17?

 

[ScottA]

Yes .the two witnesses torment and kill people.
The reason everyone is happy they are dead is because they spend all their time tormenting people.

Revelation 11
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The same time the saints are persecuted and killed for their testimony of Jesus,these two prophets go around tormenting and killing people and you believe they are good guys .

Because the word of God says they torment and kill people.

Revelation 11
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


You think because a commanding officer is a Christian he can give the command to fire and kill people and it's good?

Where does Jesus tell his followers to torment and kill people in the gospel?


Revelation 11
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Where does Jesus tell his followers to torment people?




The prophet that speaks lies kills people for 42 months.

Revelation 13
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

You grossly misunderstand.

It is not the two witnesses who kill those who want to harm them, it is God Himself.

All people are condemned to die already. That passage just means those who go against God's plans and His witnesses "will surely die." This is nothing new, but has been since the beginning. The fact that it is restated in Revelation is a reminder a confirmation to the wicked, and an assurance to those who witness for Christ that God is for those who are for Him, but against those who are against Him and those who are his.

 

[tailgator]

You grossly misunderstand.

It is not the two witnesses who kill those who want to harm them, it is God Himself.

All people are condemned to die already. That passage just means those who go against God's plans and His witnesses "will surely die." This is nothing new, but has been since the beginning. The fact that it is restated in Revelation is a reminder a confirmation to the wicked, and an assurance to those who witness for Christ that God is for those who are for Him, but against those who are against Him and those who are his.

You grossly lie against God.

You command the armed forces of the king of the north to fire upon someone it is you who killed them.
God is not the one giving the command to fire.


Do you blame God for every sin a person commits?
It sure appears so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

First I never said that history ended in 70AD or that revelation is only about what happened in 70AD because I don’t believe that

To take these things literal no nation can fulfill all of what is stated and it’s not literal Jerusalem but apostate Israel that the bible reveals is mystery Babylon the great

Instead of sticking to your beliefs why don’t you believe who Jesus showed us Babylon the great to be in point 10?

Revelation 18:24
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Matthew 23:35
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Jerusalem was Gods chosen city His capital of the world and Gods presence actually resided in the temple so what city ruled the world?

Did you read anything I said? I said "I understand that some traits of mystery Babylon are similar to ancient Jerusalem", but not all of them fit Jerusalem and I showed which ones do not. When was Jerusalem ever "the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY hateful and unclean bird" (Revelation 18:2). How is Jerusalem the mother of ALL harlots (Rev 17:5)? It says "ALL nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev 18:3). How does that describe Jerusalem?

 

[Marty fox]

Did you read anything I said? I said "I understand that some traits of mystery Babylon are similar to ancient Jerusalem", but not all of them fit Jerusalem and I showed which ones do not. When was Jerusalem ever "the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY hateful and unclean bird" (Revelation 18:2). How is Jerusalem the mother

of ALL harlots (Rev 17:5)? It says "ALL nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev 18:3). How does that describe Jerusalem?

Why don’t you put your views of understanding scripture interpretation aside and admit that you may not understand it all and instead believe what Jesus said?

Jesus tied Babylon the great directly to Jerusalem this can’t be disputed. To interpret these scriptures literally then no single city could fulfill everything written about Babylon the great

We have to understand scripture is for us but it wasn’t written too us we need to interpret scripture standing in the shoes of the people and the times that it was written too.

Their understanding maybe completely different than ours today

There is a demonic being influencing apostate Israel and that is who fulfills what was written about her

Revelation is symbolic imagery to convey a message not literalism

 

[ScottA]

You grossly lie against God.

You command the armed forces of the king of the north to fire upon someone it is you who killed them.
God is not the one giving the command to fire.


Do you blame God for every sin a person commits?
It sure appears so.

You ask because you do not know. But I have told you what is true by God.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

 

[Freedm]

LOL. First, you deny that it's talking about an earthly city and then you proceed to indicate that it's talking about the ancient earthly city of Jerusalem. Come on. Of course, the city is comprised of its people, but you're still referring to the earthly city of Jerusalem there.

I literally said "I also don't think Babylon and Jerusalem are literal cities", so I'm not sure why you're claiming that I'm talking about what you call an "earthly city". Maybe I should rephrase to be clear: I don't believe the harlot refers to a physical city, as in bricks and mortar. Rather, it refers to the people of the old covenant. The new Jerusalem refers to the people of the new covenant. Is that clear enough? And can we agree on this?

Because it says the great city is also spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt" (Rev 11:8). Those are two more harlots of which Mystery Babylon is the mother. Earthly Babylon is another. Is Jerusalem the mother of Sodom or Egypt or Babylon? No. Jerusalem is just one of the harlots of which Mystery Babylon is the mother. How can you think that earthly Jerusalem is the mother of all harlots? I would consider all false religions, cults and world philosophies to be among the harlots who have Mystery Babylon as their mother and that doesn't describe Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is the mother of all harlots, because her sins are the most egregious. That's how I understand the meaning of the word "mother" in that context. How do you understand the meaning of the word mother?

 

[Freedm]

So you don't believe Jesus ascended into heaven and you don't believe Jesus comes as he left?

You believe that is just spiritual talk that is not real?

That's a weird response to what I said. I told you what I believe is symbolic language, and now you want to imply that I believe everything is symbolic? Are you trying to change the topic? Do you want to talk about Jesus' ascension now? Cause I thought we were talking about judgment day.

 

[Freedm]

You grossly lie against God.

Do you blame God for every sin a person commits?
It sure appears so.

I know this post was not aimed at me, but these kinds of accusations serve only to anger your target. Not helpful.

 

[Freedm]

When was Jerusalem ever "the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY hateful and unclean bird" (Revelation 18:2).

I read that to mean that "all kinds of sins were committed in her".

Also, let's remember that we use words like "all" and "everyone" and "everything" in our language every day, but we don't mean those phrases literally. In fact, I just said "every day", but I don't actually use those words every day. A lot of days, but not literally every day. Still, we use phrases like that and everybody knows what we mean. So why, can we not understand Biblical texts the same way? Why do we have to be so dogmatic and analyze every single word? That's not the way people speak. The Bible is not a scientific paper, in which every word needs to be specific and accurate and demonstrable. It's a book, written by men, for men, for the purpose of conveying a message.

Look, even Paul himself, admits that when he says "everything" he doesn't mean literally everything. So let's use our common sense and not be so dogmatic on every single word. This has always been a normal way of speaking.

1 Corinthians 15 "For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I read that to mean that "all kinds of sins were committed in her".

Also, let's remember that we use words like "all" and "everyone" and "everything" in our language every day, but we don't mean those phrases literally. In fact, I just said "every day", but I don't actually use those words every day.

There is no reason to think that it's not being literal about that. This is what people do when they try to get scripture to fit their doctrines instead of just accepting what it says.

A lot of days, but not literally every day. Still, we use phrases like that and everybody knows what we mean.

Why are you equating the way we talk with scripture?

So why, can we not understand Biblical texts the same way?

Because it's God's word! My goodness. How can you try to equate God's word with every day conversation that humans have? That makes no sense.

Why do we have to be so dogmatic and analyze every single word?

That's how to determine truth in scripture.

That's not the way people speak.

We're talking about scripture here. Unbelievable.

The Bible is not a scientific paper, in which every word needs to be specific and accurate and demonstrable. It's a book, written by men, for men, for the purpose of conveying a message.

It seems that you do not have as much reference for the word of God as you should. You seem pretty liberal. Do you not think all scripture is inspired by God as Paul says it is (2 Tim 3:16-17)?

Look, even Paul himself, admits that when he says "everything" he doesn't mean literally everything. So let's use our common sense and not be so dogmatic on every single word. This has always been a normal way of speaking.

1 Corinthians 15 "For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."

Goodness sakes. That does mean literally everything except for obviously God the Father. That means if there are exceptions, it will be obvious.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The woman in Revelation 12 represents Israel the description in verse one refers back the Josephs dream back in Genesis which proves it.

If the woman's only offspring was Jesus and the saints then how do you explain verse 17?

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

If the rest of her offspring are those who hold fast to their testimony of Jesus then who exactly was her other offspring?

Jesus Himself. Please read the text more carefully.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The church consists of Jesus as the cornerstone and includes all of His followers (Eph 2:19-22). Revelation 12 is alluding to that in a symbolic way. The only children of the Revelation 12 woman are Jesus Himself (Rev 12:5) and those who belong to Jesus (Rev 12:17).

Also what happens to her after she is taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach?

I believe all the time periods referenced in the book of Revelation are symbolic, so I believe the time, times and half a time is a reference to the NT time period. The gates of hell will not prevail against the church (Matt 16:18), which is what the woman represents.

Is it just an coincidence that the woman is taken out to the wilderness and that we also find a woman in the wilderness in chapter 17?

Yes. I find the idea that the harlot Babylon is the same woman as described in Revelation 12 to be completely ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I literally said "I also don't think Babylon and Jerusalem are literal cities", so I'm not sure why you're claiming that I'm talking about what you call an "earthly city". Maybe I should rephrase to be clear: I don't believe the harlot refers to a physical city, as in bricks and mortar. Rather, it refers to the people of the old covenant.

A city includes its people, of course. You think it refers to the people of an earthly city. My point stands.

The new Jerusalem refers to the people of the new covenant. Is that clear enough? And can we agree on this?

Yes, we can agree on that. I don't think we will agree on much else.

Jerusalem is the mother of all harlots, because her sins are the most egregious. That's how I understand the meaning of the word "mother" in that context. How do you understand the meaning of the word mother?

A mother obviously gives birth to children. The great city is referred to spiritually as Babylon, but also as "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11:8). So, in my view, where the great city Mystery Babylon is the direct spiritual opposite of the holy city New Jerusalem, earthly Babylon, Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem, Rome, etc. are all harlots and those who were part of their wickedness all have Mystery Babylon as their mother just as heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of all believers (Galatians 4:26).