We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[face2face]

@Truth7t7

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, THEN know that its desolation has come near." Luke 21:24

I guess "near" for you 7, is over 2000+ years away

 

[face2face]

Matthew 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.

@Truth7t7 Maybe this advice was for 2000+ years into the future?

Eusebius (4th Century) records disciples fleeing to Pella in AD 68. There were opportunities to flee after the defeat of Cestus Gailus and the withdrawal of Vespasian

God is gracious offering them numerous opportunities to flee.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Truth7t7

Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,

cp Luke 17:31

that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

context of Lot’s wife verse 32.. "Remember Lot's wife"

@Timtofly once these teachings of Christ are opened up and the Olivet Prophecy is fully understood; Daniels prophecies become super clear

F2F

 

[Timtofly]

Not so, all die (even Christ)...some remain dead, while others are raised to life. That's the hope of the resurrection. If you believe is spirits wafting to heaven etc Pauls teaching in 1 Corinthians 15 will make no sense whatsoever.
F2F

Not so. Christ was never made dead in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Christ laid down His own life, no one killed Jesus as He hung on the Cross. Jesus allowed His body to lay in the grave for 3 days. Then He left the tomb, before they rolled the stone away.

All are born dead in Adam. Born the second time in Christ is to never die after that point. No one in Christ tasted death after the Cross. Abraham's bosom was the valley of the shadow of death. They called it sleeping. When the soul leaves the body, it changes bodies for God's permanent incorruptible physical body instantly. Adam's dead flesh returns to dust, never to be seen again.

Those who remain dead were dead since conception. They never experienced the second birth.

 

[face2face]

Not so. Christ was never made dead in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Do you know why?

 

[face2face]

Not so. Christ was never made dead in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45

I wonder if you are yet to know what Paul knew about Messiah?

F2F

 

[Timtofly]

Supporting quotes please.

You are unfamiliar with 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5?

 

[face2face]

You are unfamiliar with 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5?

When people make assumptions about a text its good to see what they are drawing on.
F2F

 

[Timtofly]

I'll deal with what is true in your post.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

So here we have “Parousia” His “presence” was seen in the Roman armies. "People of the prince” Dan 9:26. King to send armies Matt 22:7

Matthew 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL he times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

AND

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, THEN know that its desolation has come near." Luke 21:24

Do you know how many times the armies surrounded Jerusalem?
Do you know why He gave them this many opportunities to flee?

@Truth7t7 I know you dont answer questions but here is another 2.

F2F

The problem is that you are placing Jesus as King before the fulness of the Gentiles is over. You preach the word "until", then your own interpretation obliterates your own point.

Between Jesus on earth as Messiah, and Jesus on earth as King, is that whole: until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Jesus' own people destroyed their own city and temple. Have you ever heard of suicide by cop? God hardened their hearts to the point they revolted against Rome, bringing upon themselves their own destruction. Each faction of the revolt killing each other as part of this desolation of unbelief. You don't have to make the verse state what you want (a 70AD fulfillment) to avoid the point there is still a future coming of Jesus as King, which the verses in Daniel 9 do claim.

Daniel 9:26 does claim the city would be destroyed.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

The Romans are not mentioned once in this verse.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This is Jesus as King on the earth at the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is a week of days, not a week of years. We don't need Josephus one time in interpretation of Scripture with Scripture. Especially since the King part of this chapter is not carried out until (get that?) the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. And the 70 weeks are not complete and in place until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. Then those 6 promises will be permanent for those who live on the earth during the Day of the Lord.

Most posters here are wrong one way or the other. You seem to get the fulness of the Gentiles part down, but still so wrong about Daniel 9. The 70 weeks were not completed in the first century. The whole 70th week is not future. Jesus was cut off as Messiah completing the first half of the 70th week. At the 6th Seal, Jesus as King will complete the last half during the first 6 Trumpets, the greatest time of Jacob's trouble. Most of Israel like the Gentiles will be tossed into the LOF as goats. Not only will all the works of earth be burned up per 2 Peter 3; during the Trumpets, there are 2 woes where Satan will be doing his best to prove God wrong like he did in Job. Will people endure until the end with all spiritual blindness removed and no one will have an excuse, yet still deceieved by Satan? Some claim they will do just fine. Except for the fact the church was removed while Jesus was coming to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14.

You seem to have become entangled in Josephus followers who rely heavily on his historical record, even though you may deny that point. If it had not been for Josephus, and perhaps other Roman historians, we would never have heard of 70AD. Do you know of any Jewish celebrations remembering 70AD? In fact 70AD could have been avoided altogether. Yet those who condemned Jesus to death, claimed His blood on their children and grandchildren. They could have revolted, lost, been killed, and let Rome have Jerusalem. The Temple could have been set up as a Roman pagan place of worship, as a spoil of war. Just as Daniel said, the Jews destroyed the city themselves.

God removed Himself from the Temple the moment Jesus said it is finished. There was no Holy of Holies after that point. That was not what Gabriel was talking about when the sacrifice and oblations would cease. In the midst of the week of days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet this is what happens:

1. Jesus and the 144k along with the angels depart for mount Zion.

2. All authority of earth is 100% handed over to Satan. In Job, Satan could not kill Job. In Revelation 13, Satan can kill whomever he desires.

3 the Atonement Covenant is totally withdrawn from the earth. No one can accept Salvation at that point. That is what is stopped; not animal sacrifices. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world will no longer apply.

4 God starts stamping the mark of the beast on people's forehead and arms, their choice as their names are removed from the Lamb's book of life. That will be one choice. The other choice will be to remove one's head from one's body. That is the only means of Salvation.

That is why this period of time is called the abomination of desolation. No one will be preaching the Gospel, except the angel per Revelation 14. It will be baptism by fire as in the removal of one's head. Perhaps even the 7th Trumpet will remain blaring as a reminder of what once was? The two witnesses will obviously be a thorn in everyone's side, and even they go around killing people. Certainly not the Gospel of grace and mercy. You think 70AD was bad? How about death and destruction on every square inch of the earth?

So why dwell so much on the past? Do you not accept that judgment day is coming? We have not completed Daniel 9, and you already pointed out why. Yet you seem not to be interested in Jesus reigning on earth on His Glorious throne in His glorious Temple mentioned in Revelation 11 and Matthew 25:31. The other points in the Olivet Discourse you miss when thinking you have the answer in your erroneous interpretation.

 

[Timtofly]

When people make assumptions about a text its good to see what they are drawing on.
F2F

You never pointed out any assumptions, so what am I assuming?

 

[face2face]

You never pointed out any assumptions, so what am I assuming?

Everything in your post #333

 

[face2face]

The problem is that you are placing Jesus as King before the fulness of the Gentiles is over. You preach the word "until", then your own interpretation obliterates your own point.c

Have you not read "Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is jesus, the king of the jews."
Do you think the Gentile times make him less of a King now?
That's a weird comment!

Between Jesus on earth as Messiah, and Jesus on earth as King, is that whole: until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Where do you get this? Yes, when he returns he will be given Davids throne and sit upon it as King of the Jews and eventually the whole earth but that stop Jesus from being King now.

Jesus' own people destroyed their own city and temple. Have you ever heard of suicide by cop? God hardened their hearts to the point they revolted against Rome, bringing upon themselves their own destruction. Each faction of the revolt killing each other as part of this desolation of unbelief. You don't have to make the verse state what you want (a 70AD fulfillment) to avoid the point there is still a future coming of Jesus as King, which the verses in Daniel 9 do claim.

Daniel 9:26 does claim the city would be destroyed.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

The Romans are not mentioned once in this verse.

Are you serious? You want an empire not in existence to be named in Daniel 9? If this is your approach to prophecy please dont respond to this post. I've had enough of Truth7t7 with there "everything is future nonsense", now to have someone wanting the Romans mentioned in Daniel 9, craziness!

When I have time tonight I will look at the remainder of your post, as it looks like you put some work in, which I apprecaite.

F2F

 

[face2face]

The 70 weeks were not completed in the first century. The whole 70th week is not future. Jesus was cut off as Messiah completing the first half of the 70th week. At the 6th Seal, Jesus as King will complete the last half during the first 6 Trumpets, the greatest time of Jacob's trouble. Most of Israel like the Gentiles will be tossed into the LOF as goats. Not only will all the works of earth be burned up per 2 Peter 3; during the Trumpets, there are 2 woes where Satan will be doing his best to prove God wrong like he did in Job. Will people endure until the end with all spiritual blindness removed and no one will have an excuse, yet still deceieved by Satan? Some claim they will do just fine. Except for the fact the church was removed while Jesus was coming to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14.

You seem to have become entangled in Josephus followers who rely heavily on his historical record, even though you may deny that point. If it had not been for Josephus, and perhaps other Roman historians, we would never have heard of 70AD

The birth, death, resurrection, and exaltation of Christ is followed by his further rejection of his people. AD70 is the culmination of a lot of prophecies and judgements which God accurately foretold in His Word. Critical to this is the end of the Priesthood and the end of the Sanhedrin, the end of sacrifice and offerings.

It was the end of the Mosaic age and the beginning of the Gentile times. Maybe you and others like to downplay the significance, but genuine Bible students can see the many warnings given in the OT/NT times.

Do you know of any Jewish celebrations remembering 70AD? In fact 70AD could have been avoided altogether. Yet those who condemned Jesus to death, claimed His blood on their children and grandchildren. They could have revolted, lost, been killed, and let Rome have Jerusalem. The Temple could have been set up as a Roman pagan place of worship, as a spoil of war. Just as Daniel said, the Jews destroyed the city themselves.

That is true, though God had other plans, which was destroying the city; temple and sending the instruments into far off countries. God was no longer in a Temple made with hands, and Christ bringing the Roman armies against Jerusalem was a final judgement on all the Zealots and those they held hostage within her walls. At every step of the way, God revealed His mercy - so many times, its crazy to read of it in great detail, but they would have none of it....it's the same Spirit Truth7t7 has shown in this thread! It's a belligerent ignorance which can't be moved.

God removed Himself from the Temple the moment Jesus said it is finished.

Yep

There was no Holy of Holies after that point.

Agree

That was not what Gabriel was talking about when the sacrifice and oblations would cease. In the midst of the week of days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet this is what happens:

1. Jesus and the 144k along with the angels depart for mount Zion.

2. All authority of earth is 100% handed over to Satan. In Job, Satan could not kill Job. In Revelation 13, Satan can kill whomever he desires.

3 the Atonement Covenant is totally withdrawn from the earth. No one can accept Salvation at that point. That is what is stopped; not animal sacrifices. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world will no longer apply.

4 God starts stamping the mark of the beast on people's forehead and arms, their choice as their names are removed from the Lamb's book of life. That will be one choice. The other choice will be to remove one's head from one's body. That is the only means of Salvation.

That is why this period of time is called the abomination of desolation. No one will be preaching the Gospel, except the angel per Revelation 14. It will be baptism by fire as in the removal of one's head. Perhaps even the 7th Trumpet will remain blaring as a reminder of what once was? The two witnesses will obviously be a thorn in everyone's side, and even they go around killing people. Certainly not the Gospel of grace and mercy. You think 70AD was bad? How about death and destruction on every square inch of the earth?

So why dwell so much on the past? Do you not accept that judgment day is coming? We have not completed Daniel 9, and you already pointed out why. Yet you seem not to be interested in Jesus reigning on earth on His Glorious throne in His glorious Temple mentioned in Revelation 11 and Matthew 25:31. The other points in the Olivet Discourse you miss when thinking you have the answer in your erroneous interpretation.

To be frank, you have so many things going on here, which has no Scriptural backing. You probibly know by now, I'm a stickler for Bible quotes. I generally will not talk to peoples opinions, unless they are anchored to a Bible verse.

Can you go back over this above section and provide a list of references?

Thanks
F2F

 

[Truth7t7]

@Truth7t7

Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,

cp Luke 17:31

that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

context of Lot’s wife verse 32.. "Remember Lot's wife"

@Timtofly once these teachings of Christ are opened up and the Olivet Prophecy is fully understood; Daniels prophecies become super clear

F2F

Don't mention me in a post "respond directly to the content of my post" so the reader can see my argument, please practice common courtesy in debate "Thanks"!

 

[face2face]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

Marty,

As you know @Truth7t7 @Timtofly & I have been debating aspects of how to interpret Revelation 11; this took us to Daniels prophecies and then into the Olivet Prophecy which proved the judgements there are predominantly fulfilled in AD70.

I think its time to study Revelation 11 "together" to work out whats going on there.

One thing is certain with the Revelation is every word is important and full of symbolic intent.

Then a measuring rod like a staff was given to me (John), and I was told, “Get up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and the ones who worship there.

Lets find something to agree on shall we?

Can you see the symbol of a measuring rod, like a staff, is a rod, which is used for correction? Hence the symbol indicates a measured period of great unrest.

1 Cor 4:21 What do you want? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline or with love and a spirit of gentleness?

Finding context is important.

F2F

 

[Truth7t7]

Marty,

As you know @Truth7t7 @Timtofly & I have been debating aspects of how to interpret Revelation 11; this took us to Daniels prophecies and then into the Olivet Prophecy which proved the judgements there are predominantly fulfilled in AD70.

I think its time to study Revelation 11 "together" to work out whats going on there.

One thing is certain with the Revelation is every word is important and full of symbolic intent.

Then a measuring rod like a staff was given to me (John), and I was told, “Get up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and the ones who worship there.

Lets find something to agree on shall we?

Can you see the symbol of a measuring rod, like a staff, is a rod, which is used for correction? Hence the symbol indicates a measured period of great unrest.

1 Cor 4:21 What do you want? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline or with love and a spirit of gentleness?

Finding context is important.

F2F

Big Smiles!

 

[face2face]

Big Smiles!

Take that over small frowns

 

[Truth7t7]

the Olivet Prophecy which proved the judgements there are predominantly fulfilled in AD70.

Your Claim Is "False"

Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation Are "Future" Events Unfulfilled

 

[Timtofly]

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45

I wonder if you are yet to know what Paul knew about Messiah?

F2F

17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Do you know why?

You are implying that Jesus was a sinner and not God, and that He only became God after He was resurrected.

Why would I need the mind of Paul? We are supposed to have the mind of Christ.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"

Why are you taking verses out of context to make a point that is not true? That is how heretical doctrine is formed. I pointed out your error, and then you accused me of not understanding God's Word, as if only you owned the trademark on truth.

 

[Timtofly]

Have you not read "Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is jesus, the king of the jews."
Do you think the Gentile times make him less of a King now?
That's a weird comment!

Jesus was Messiah and King since before the world was created. We are talking about the hold on earth for Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. This is the 7th Trumpet.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Are you saying all the kingdoms of the world became the kingdoms of Jesus in the first century? He is not less of a king now. He is not the king of all nations, until after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Where do you get this? Yes, when he returns he will be given Davids throne and sit upon it as King of the Jews and eventually the whole earth but that stop Jesus from being King now.

You are missing the point that the fulness of the Gentiles comes in before the Second Coming. Jesus is not currently sitting on a throne in Jerusalem. The 7th Trumpet is the declared finish of Daniel 9:24-27. Here is the reference about the 7th Trumpet:

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

What time is finished at the 7th Trumpet? The 70 weeks is now complete at the 7th Trumpet.

Are you serious? You want an empire not in existence to be named in Daniel 9? If this is your approach to prophecy please dont respond to this post. I've had enough of Truth7t7 with there "everything is future nonsense", now to have someone wanting the Romans mentioned in Daniel 9, craziness!

You are the one claiming the Romans are mentioned in Daniel 9.

You are not making sense in you point. What empire do you think is not in existence?

We are not in any kingdom today, mentioned in Daniel 2. We are not under Babylon. We are not under the Medes and Persians. We are not under Greece. We are not under Rome, and no longer under the ten toes. 5 kingdoms are dead and gone right now. That covers the history that is in the past. There is not a continuous process of control. We are in the mortally wounded 6th kingdom with no one government controlling humanity. Satan is the 8th kingdom, and one of the 7 heads.

The 7th Kingdom is not one of the heads. The 7th kingdom is the Prince to come. The 7th kingdom is declared final at the 7th Trumpet.

The dragon in Revelation 12 is the same beast in Revelation 13, and the scarlet beast in Revelation 17. There will be no revival of the first 5 dead kingdoms.

Israel was a nation that came out of Egypt, and did become sovereign for a short term. As long as they were obedient to God.

Daniel 2 was only the history from the Babylonian captivity until the Reformation.

When I have time tonight I will look at the remainder of your post, as it looks like you put some work in, which I apprecaite.

F2F