Was Paul Right About Women In Church?

[Pearl]

But Pearl, outside of some scoundrels, no person with a little bit of reasoning considers such a mandate as hierarchy of inferiority, subjectivity or tyranny. Which is why it is often referred to as Complementarianism.

As much as a child should not try and usurp the position of their parents, as much as a civilian should not defy the authority of a policeman, or any government official, it is improper for a being who was created after another, and as a help to another, to have authority over the initial being. Show me one wise man, and I will easily show you 10 wiser women, no problem, and vice versa. Even children often outgrow, out-mature, or outsmart their parents, it does not mean that they should ever challenge their inherent authority.

This is a call for men to step up to the plate, not to dominate women or children. In my opinion, he is to give his life, not only for his wife, but in any context, for the women and children. Only an incompetent fool (yes, the irony), would think that this principle is an opportunity to oppress women, or consider them as inferior, only a derelict and incompetent fool would hold that position!

I don't know which church you belong to as even the Anglican church allows women to follow their calling as clergy and bishops and long before they allowed that they allowed female lay readers to take services and preach.

And I do agree that men need to step up to the plate and be the leaders Jesus needs them to be; men of honour and integrity, men of faith with the vision and guidance of the Holy Spirit. And men who are not too proud to take their turn on the brew rota or cleaning team.

I know it's really hard for some men to see things any other way but I think they should at least look into it. You could start by reading the book I recommended. Bet you won't though. :)

 

[Pearl]

John Macarthur's wife, for one. And quite a few others that i watched on YouTube. Not one of them considered this hierarchy as one of dominance and inferiority, nor do I. Men must play the role of protector and provider that God demands of him, not immature, incompetent fool who thinks that women are only there to serve him.

Men can be too protective and prevent women from flying free on their God-given wings. Neither gender should dominate the other. As brothers and sisters in Christ we should work together and recognise each others gifting. Not all of us want to preach or teach or evangelise or be pastors or be prophets; but some women have those callings and to deny that is wrong and it quenches the Holy Spirit.

Joel 2:28
‘And afterwards, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

 

[Heart2Soul]

GINOLJC, to all.
Addressing the OP, First, the Apostle is not even addressing any woman in the Church. he is addressing wives at home.
1 Timothy 2:11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."1 Timothy 2:13 "For Adam was first formed, then Eve." 1 Timothy 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

and in this verse below, the apostle is not addressing any woman at all, but their husbands.
1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."1 Corinthians 14:36 "What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?"

here the word "woman" is
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096

so how do we know both scriptures are speaking of wives? because in 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." the only woman who suppose to be having childern/childbearing, is a married one.

and in 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." the only woman who have a husband is a married one. BINGO

but the bible is full of women preaches, and bishops, and yes... Pastors.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Thank you for sharing this brother!

 

[DNB]

John Macarthur is a Calvinist preacher following the teachings of the lunatic John Calvin.
Talking to a Calvinist about their religion is like nailing Jell-O to a wall. Things they do not want you to know. Double talk, circle talk, and talking out the side of their mouth...funny!
Blanket statement notwithstanding that there is a norm....the norm is that women in Calvinist churches are subservient. Let no one tell you any different. The "notwithstanding" part...Calvinist are infiltrators...for example Baptist churches that have been infiltrated by Calvinist will generally not agree with the misogyny of Calvinist.

Confirmation...type list of female Calvinist preachers in a search engine..=..0

It was a very brief example, ...you know very well if one was to do a search on the subject matter, we would find countless women Christians from many diverse denominations, that are Complementarians.

 

[DNB]

I don't know which church you belong to as even the Anglican church allows women to follow their calling as clergy and bishops and long before they allowed that they allowed female lay readers to take services and preach.

And I do agree that men need to step up to the plate and be the leaders Jesus needs them to be; men of honour and integrity, men of faith with the vision and guidance of the Holy Spirit. And men who are not too proud to take their turn on the brew rota or cleaning team.

I know it's really hard for some men to see things any other way but I think they should at least look into it. You could start by reading the book I recommended. Bet you won't though. :)

...but the Anglicans also allow homosexual clergy...?
No, I won't read the book, as for one, it was written by a women (biased), and two, I believe that the Scripture as a whole delineates this intrinsic hierarchy.
Never a female monarch, except for Athaliah who had no right to the throne (not from Judah, gained her position by treachery), and she ended up dying in utter shame and infamy because of it.
Never a female priest, and the lineage was passed on from 'father to son'.
Never a female judge except for Deborah, who was actually a prophetess, and when Barak refused to lead the battle, God said, I will shame you by giving the credit to a women.
Adam was created before Eve, Eve was created for man (Genesis 2:18). Paul explains this as to why women are forbidden to hold authority over a man (1 Timothy 2:12-14). This was a fundamental ground, not circumstantial nor cultural.
Head of Christ = God, Head of man = Christ, Head of women = man.
Women submit to your husbands (Ephesians 5:22-24)
Women obey your husbands (1 Peter 3:5-6)
etc...

 

[Heart2Soul]

...but the Anglicans also allow homosexual clergy...?
No, I won't read the book, as for one, it was written by a women (biased), and two, I believe that the Scripture as a whole delineates this intrinsic hierarchy.
Never a female monarch, except for Athaliah who had no right to the throne (not from Judah), and she ended up dying in utter shame and infamy.
Never a female priest, and the lineage was passed on from 'father to son'.
Never a female judge except for Deborah, who was actually a prophetess, and when Barak refused to lead the battle, God said, I will shame you by giving the credit to a women.
Adam was created before Eve, Eve was created for man (Genesis 2:18). Paul explains this as to why women are forbidden to hold authority over a man (1 Timothy 2:12-14). This was a fundamental ground, not circumstantial nor cultural.
Head of Christ = God, Head of man = Christ, Head of women = man.
Women submit to your husbands (Ephesians 5:22-24)
Women obey your husbands (1 Peter 3:5-6)
etc...

Never...except for...lol.
Teaching is not having authority over someone.
Obeying your husband...if you have one....does not exclude you from being a teacher.

 

[DNB]

Men can be too protective and prevent women from flying free on their God-given wings. Neither gender should dominate the other. As brothers and sisters in Christ we should work together and recognise each others gifting. Not all of us want to preach or teach or evangelise or be pastors or be prophets; but some women have those callings and to deny that is wrong and it quenches the Holy Spirit.

Joel 2:28
‘And afterwards, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

Women are more than capable to anything a man can do, as much as a child may outperform their parents.
But, there is still a hierarchy that needs to be retained for the sake of order, and for God's impeccable design.
Again, recognizing one's role and duty, despite the competency of the one that you are serving, is a glorious disposition to have.
Slaves, serve your master as though you are serving Christ, despite how the master may treat you.

We're not talking competency or capability here, Pearl, but abiding by the universe's God-given design.

 

[Raccoon1010]

...but the Anglicans also allow homosexual clergy...?
No, I won't read the book, as for one, it was written by a women (biased), and two, I believe that the Scripture as a whole delineates this intrinsic hierarchy.
Never a female monarch, except for Athaliah who had no right to the throne (not from Judah), and she ended up dying in utter shame and infamy.
Never a female priest, and the lineage was passed on from 'father to son'.
Never a female judge except for Deborah, who was actually a prophetess, and when Barak refused to lead the battle, God said, I will shame you by giving the credit to a women.
Adam was created before Eve, Eve was created for man (Genesis 2:18). Paul explains this as to why women are forbidden to hold authority over a man (1 Timothy 2:12-14). This was a fundamental ground, not circumstantial nor cultural.
Head of Christ = God, Head of man = Christ, Head of women = man.
Women submit to your husbands (Ephesians 5:22-24)
Women obey your husbands (1 Peter 3:5-6)
etc...

Thanks for bringing up those points. Before I address any of that I will just say that my church allows women to give talks before the congregation during meetings. But women and men are different and not equal physically. Women give birth, men do not. We have different physical builds and different sexual organs obviously. We also have similarities, we both have two eyes, brains, arms and legs, lungs etc.

Perhaps we're better suited for different tasks most of the time but not always, and that might be one of the differences. Women have different hormone levels. I was sick once and my doctor said my testosterone levels were of that of a woman, so he put me on hormones for a while. It made my male body super ill and I got infections easily.

With different hormone levels I think it's safe to say that women think differently than men. There is the feminist push to say women are the same as men and have all the same rights and honors, can do the same work. That's partially true. But I think they're hiding a more sinister plan there, to push a GBLT agenda and hide God from mankind, remove God from schools and government.

I think women and men can celebrate our similarities and also be grateful for our differences.

 

[101G]

A woman brain is just as good as a man brain, there no difference in the two when it comes to understanding God's Holy Word. women been preaching and teaching and .... pastoring throught out the bible.... well now I going to stick my finger into someone eye, with this one.... the first Pastor/Bishop at the church of Rome was pastored by a woman. Uh O, what a bee hive I now have stirred up...... YIKES!.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Raccoon1010]

A woman brain is just as good as a man brain, there no difference in the two when it comes to understanding God's Holy Word. women been preaching and teaching and .... pastoring throught out the bible.... well now I going to stick my finger into someone eye, with this one.... the first Pastor/Bishop at the church of Rome was pastored by a woman. Uh O, what a bee hive I now have stirred up...... YIKES!.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

The cock crows, Spiritual Savoteur strikes again, lol. No two brains are the same. No one thinks like another. We all have a fingerprint as a brain which is unique. That's why there are so many denominations and ways to believe. Not to mention chemistry differences. Haven't you seen the female product line at the stores for female chemistry.

 

[DNB]

Never...except for...lol.
Teaching is not having authority over someone.
Obeying your husband...if you have one....does not exclude you from being a teacher.

That's quite the disparity, is it not, 'never' as in nowhere throughout the entire Bible, except for one very compromising and undermining exception?
You're laughing at the seemingly contradiction, ...but, for one, it wasn't, and two, and it's not funny at all at the credible point that was being made?
It's funny how the egalitarians just entirely dismiss or overlook these facts?

Paul equated the two, authority and teaching, in the context where he expressed it. Why are you contradicting the passage?
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;

Again, obeying your husband, in the context that it was given, denotes a limited authority - teach women and children, not men.

You are a rebel H2S!

 

[DNB]

Thanks for bringing up those points. Before I address any of that I will just say that my church allows women to give talks before the congregation during meetings. But women and men are different and not equal physically. Women give birth, men do not. We have different physical builds and different sexual organs obviously. We also have similarities, we both have two eyes, brains, arms and legs, lungs etc.

Perhaps we're better suited for different tasks most of the time but not always, and that might be one of the differences. Women have different hormone levels. I was sick once and my doctor said my testosterone levels were of that of a woman, so he put me on hormones for a while. It made my male body super ill and I got infections easily.

With different hormone levels I think it's safe to say that women think differently than men. There is the feminist push to say women are the same as men and have all the same rights and honors, can do the same work. That's partially true. But I think they're hiding a more sinister plan there, to push a GBLT agenda and hide God from mankind, remove God from schools and government.

I think women and men can celebrate our similarities and also be grateful for our differences.

Yes, agreed, and again, this is why the term 'Complementarianism' is very apt. It is not a relationship of abuse or tyranny, but one of mutual respect and concern for each other. Like you said, there are intrinsic attributes that, first, cannot be denied, and two, must be recognized in order to exploit these qualities. A women's reproductive system must undeniably affect her in ways that a man cannot relate to. As much as a man's stature and physique cannot be compared to a woman's, and thus, has an equal influence on his mentality that a women cannot always appreciate.

Men and women, as far as their constitution is concerned, may as well be two different species. In other words, recognized and respect the inherent differences between them, and do not try to equalize them as do the transgender community.

 

[101G]

The cock crows, Spiritual Savoteur strikes again, lol. No two brains are the same. No one thinks like another. We all have a fingerprint as a brain which is unique. That's why there are so many denominations and ways to believe. Not to mention chemistry differences. Haven't you seen the female product line at the stores for female chemistry.

well the witch, oh I'm sorry, the Wintch has struck again, just having a little fun... no harm. but no, did you read what I said?, yes I agree, women think differently from men, but this is what I said, listen, "there no difference in the two when it comes to understanding God's Holy Word". and the reason why I said it like that, is because, Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
notice the apostle didn't say "a" measure, but "the" measue, meaning we all got the same amount initially at birth.

be blessed,

101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Raccoon1010]

Yes, agreed, and again, this is why the term 'Complementarianism' is very apt. It is not a relationship of abuse or tyranny, but one of mutual respect and concern for each other. Like you said, there are intrinsic attributes that, first, cannot be denied, and two, must be recognized in order to exploit these qualities. A women's reproductive system must undeniably affect her in ways that a man cannot relate to. As much as a man's stature and physique cannot be compared to a woman's, and thus, has an equal influence on his mentality that a women cannot always appreciate.

Men and women, as far as their constitution is concerned, may as well be two different species. In other words, recognized and respect the inherent differences between them, and do not try to equalize them as do the transgender community.

Just to clarify, because I didn't see that you hit on this point. I think we should have the same legal rights. And women are proving themselves in the military which is cool. But we give women maternity leave and not men obviously for the reasons you are aware of. I think God knows the differences and had in mind slightly different responsibilities for us. Perhaps it's a good thing.

 

[Raccoon1010]

well the witch, oh I'm sorry, the Wintch has struck again, just having a little fun... no harm. but no, did you read what I said?, yes I agree, women think differently from men, but this is what I said, listen, "there no difference in the two when it comes to understanding God's Holy Word". and the reason why I said it like that, is because, Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
notice the apostle didn't say "a" measure, but "the" measue, meaning we all got the same amount initially at birth.

be blessed,

101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

When I was in school they called me "Devil Witch", lol. I agree, God teaches us the Gospel of Christ thru his Holy Spirit, which is not male or female, but God and perhaps male? I'm not totally sure, but thru the Light of Christ and the Holy Spirit men and women can understand the same things and then we all have a benchmark where we all are taught the scriptures and the Gospel.

 

[DNB]

Just to clarify, because I didn't see that you hit on this point. I think we should have the same legal rights. And women are proving themselves in the military which is cool. But we give women maternity leave and not men obviously for the reasons you are aware of. I think God knows the differences and had in mind slightly different responsibilities for us. Perhaps it's a good thing.

Yes, you're right on both accounts - i failed to comment, and women are worthy of the same dignity, respect and civil rights as that of a man. Civil rights, not theological rights, which is the whole premise to our arguments.
Like I said to Pearl, I think that it is incumbent upon a man to give his life for both women and children, under any circumstances. The stronger must always protect the weak. We are not talking oppression here, but duty, and man must step up to the plate and take on his God-given responsibility, as much as parents are responsible for their children in the same manner.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Yes, you're right on both accounts - i failed to comment, and women are worthy of the same dignity, respect and civil rights as that of a man. Civil rights, not theological rights, which is the whole premise to our arguments.
Like I said to Pearl, I think that it is incumbent upon a man to give his life for both women and children, under any circumstances. The stronger must always protect the weak. We are not talking oppression here, but duty, and man must step up to the plate and take on his God-given responsibility, as much as parents are responsible for their children in the same manner.

Yes I agree. Especially now that evil is abundantly taught in schools. I see the need for good Christian schools. In the days of Paul the Apostle, when he wrote that text, woman had to stay with the children, so men worked and women did not. Things have changed now and we have school and day care, not that I trust the public versions of those. But yeah things have changed and women can work now. But I still like the idea of women staying with the children and teaching them the Gospel ways during their youth. And then children could go to a good Christian school when of age and learn to be part of society in a healthy way.

 

[DNB]

Yes I agree. Especially now that evil is abundantly taught in schools. I see the need for good Christian schools. In the days of Paul the Apostle, when he wrote that text, woman had to stay with the children, so men worked and women did not. Things have changed now and we have school and day care, not that I trust the public versions of those. But yeah things have changed and women can work now. But I still like the idea of women staying with the children and teaching them the Gospel ways during their youth. And then children could go to a good Christian school when of age and learn to be part of society in a healthy way.

Yes, agreed!

 

[Heart2Soul]

That's quite the disparity, is it not, 'never' as in nowhere throughout the entire Bible, except for one very compromising and undermining exception?
You're laughing at the seemingly contradiction, ...but, for one, it wasn't, and two, and it's not funny at all at the credible point that was being made?
It's funny how the egalitarians just entirely dismiss or overlook these facts?

Paul equated the two, authority and teaching, in the context where he expressed it. Why are you contradicting the passage?
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;

Again, obeying your husband, in the context that it was given, denotes a limited authority - teach women and children, not men.

You are a rebel H2S!

A rebel with a cause...rebelling against false teaching and doctrine such as what you are promoting.:)

 

[Grailhunter]

It was a very brief example, ...you know very well if one was to do a search on the subject matter, we would find countless women Christians from many diverse denominations, that are Complementarians.

Wrong guy to do that to. I am not talking about "diverse denominations" I am talking about the truth about Calvinists.