To what does the APOSTASIA refer

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have no expectation of convincing you, and I'm not trying to. I'm just sharing my ideas, and reading yours.

I understand that. I'm sharing mine as well.

But I never said for no reason, you are attributing that to me, but what I said was that Paul was addressing their concerns.

I did say "as I see it" and not as you see it. But, if there was a reason for him mentioning the rapture in verse 1, I don't know what it is from your perspective since you have him immediately changing the subject after mentioning it.

 

[marks]

I understand that. I'm sharing mine as well.


I did say "as I see it" and not as you see it. But, if there was a reason for him mentioning the rapture in verse 1, I don't know what it is from your perspective since you have him immediately changing the subject after mentioning it.

Paul was addressing their concerns.

They were apparently concerned regarding their being gathered to Jesus, because people were telling them the Day of the Lord had arrived. Paul let them know that the Day of the Lord would not come except the departure and the revealing of the man of sin came first. So no need to be concerned about their being gathered to the Lord, because it wasn't yet the Day of the Lord.

And from there he went on to give more teaching/prophecy.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul was addressing their concerns.

They were apparently concerned regarding their being gathered to Jesus, because people were telling them the Day of the Lord had arrived.

But, didn't you indicate that you believe the day of the Lord is a completely separate event from the rapture? He was addressing concerns related to the day of the Lord in verse 2, so how was he addressing those concerns in verse 1 if verse 2 has nothing to do with the rapture?

Paul let them know that the Day of the Lord would not come except the departure and the revealing of the man of sin came first. So no need to be concerned about their being gathered to the Lord, because it wasn't yet the Day of the Lord.

You are talking as if the rapture has a relationship to the day of the Lord here, but before you talked as if they are completely separate events. So, which is it?

I'm still not seeing why exactly he referenced the rapture in verse 1 from the perspective of your view since, from your view, he was addressing a different event in verses 2 and 3 than the rapture.

 

[marks]

But, didn't you indicate that you believe the day of the Lord is a completely separate event from the rapture? He was addressing concerns related to the day of the Lord in verse 2, so how was he addressing those concerns in verse 1 if verse 2 has nothing to do with the rapture?


You are talking as if the rapture has a relationship to the day of the Lord here, but before you talked as if they are completely separate events. So, which is it?

I'm still not seeing why exactly he referenced the rapture in verse 1 from the perspective of your view since, from your view, he was addressing a different event in verses 2 and 3 than the rapture.

I think if you go back and reread some of my posts you'll see the answers to these.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

It's the starting point for his teaching/prophecy of what will be happening at the end of the age.

"Don't be alarmed about our gathering to Jesus, this isn't the Day of the Lord, that day of wrath and darkness. That won't come but the apostasia come first and the man of sin be revealed. Hes' the one who opposes God and exalts himself over God. You remember I told you this, right? And you know what's holding him back now, right?

And he goes on, about the restraining of the mystery of lawlessness, and goes on to talk about the man of sin.

I don't see any issues with the flow of information in this chapter. Paul addressed the original concern, and went on to speak more on the man of sin, and what will happen.

Much love!

marks,
Is the verse you posted from a 'pre-trib' rapture Bible, because it ain't exactly what is WRITTEN

SEE
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Do you SEE that @marks =
1.) by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us,
2.) alleging that the Day of the Lord
3.) has already come.


As USUAL, pre-trib ERROR never stops it's apostacy from the TRUE Words of GOD

 

[marks]

because it ain't exactly what is WRITTEN

Thank you! I've editted my post to clarify this lest anyone else become con.fused over what I'm posting.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think if you go back and reread some of my posts you'll see the answers to these.

Much love!

I don't think so, but if you could tell me the post number of at least one of those posts where you think you already answered those questions I would appreciate it. Then I can at least have some idea of where verse 1 fits into your overall understanding of 2nd Thessalonians 2.

 

[David in NJ]

Thank you! I've editted my post to clarify this lest anyone else become con.fused over what I'm posting.

Much love!

It still is not correct and in CONTRADICTION of the exact wording

Here is the CORRECT wording:

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.



Do you SEE that @marks =
1.) by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us,
2.) alleging that the Day of the Lord
3.) has already come.

 

[marks]

I don't think so, but if you could tell me the post number of at least one of those posts where you think you already answered those questions I would appreciate it. Then I can at least have some idea of where verse 1 fits into your overall understanding of 2nd Thessalonians 2.

I'm sorry, I've answered this about 4 times . . .

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I'm sorry, I've answered this about 4 times . . .

Much love!

marks,
you need not reply if you choose

it is IMPORTANT for you to SEE how you altered God's words which CHANGES the EXACT TRUTH

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,
we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come.

the HOLY SPIRIT speaking thru the Apostle Paul does NOT separate the 'Day of the Lord' from our gathering in Christ.

At the Second Coming, Christ will Resurrect the saints who died FIRST
After the Resurrection of the dead comes the Rapture of alive remaining saints - 1 Thessalonians

Once CHRIST has GATHERED those who belong to HIM, the Day of the Lord/God's Wrath begins - 2 Thessalonians

 

[marks]

the HOLY SPIRIT speaking thru the Apostle Paul does NOT separate the 'Day of the Lord' from our gathering in Christ.

If the day of Christ equals the harpadzo of the church, then why would anyone be troubled by someone saying, Rapture day is here! Wouldn't that be good news?

And even so . . . "Has come", as in, the day of Christ has come, is in the perfect tense, it's come, and it remains here. That doesn't fit with the harpadzo that happens, and then it's over.

We need to stick to exactly what the text says.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Once CHRIST has GATHERED those who belong to HIM, the Day of the Lord/God's Wrath begins - 2 Thessalonians

Both the departure, AND the revealing of the man of sin will precede "that day", that is, the day of the Lord.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

If the day of Christ equals the harpadzo of the church, then why would anyone be troubled by someone saying, Rapture day is here! Wouldn't that be good news?

And even so . . . "Has come", as in, the day of Christ has come, is in the perfect tense, it's come, and it remains here. That doesn't fit with the harpadzo that happens, and then it's over.

We need to stick to exactly what the text says.

Much love!

why would anyone be troubled by someone saying, Rapture day is here!

Because if the Rapture already occurred it would mean only ONE VERY OMINOUS and FORBODING TERROR

And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

SHALOM

 

[David in NJ]

Both the departure, AND the revealing of the man of sin will precede "that day", that is, the day of the Lord.

Much love!

The "departure" is NOT the Rapture

The apostacy is a DEPARTURE from Truth

my precious Brother in Christ @marks, will you believe the Apostle John who said the very SAME prophecy as the Apostle Paul

 

[David in NJ]

Both the departure, AND the revealing of the man of sin will precede "that day", that is, the day of the Lord.

Much love!

@marks, i have to step out for a work estimate - will be back in a couple of hours

 

[marks]

Because if the Rapture occurred it would mean only ONE VERY OMINOUS and FORBODING TERROR

The message isn't "the rapture already happened", the message is, the day of Christ/Lord is here, with "here" to be understood as, it's come, and it's staying. That day, it's come, to stay. It's in the perfect tense, that's what that tense means.

This is one reason why your interpretation simply doesn't fit with the wording and the syntax of the passage. Your interpretation has them being told, "Rapture day is here to stay", which doesn't make sense, considering the rapture is an event that occurs and then it's over. So these terms, "the gathering to our Lord"/"rapture"/harpadzo, and, "the day of Christ/day of the Lord" are not equivalent.

Again, this isn't from an interpetation, I'm relaying the syntax of the passage.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

The message isn't "the rapture already happened", the message is, the day of Christ/Lord is here, with "here" to be understood as, it's come, and it's staying. That day, it's come, to stay. It's in the perfect tense, that's what that tense means.

This is one reason why your interpretation simply doesn't fit with the wording and the syntax of the passage. Your interpretation has them being told, "Rapture day is here to stay", which doesn't make sense, considering the rapture is an event that occurs and then it's over. So these terms, "the gathering to our Lord"/"rapture"/harpadzo, and, "the day of Christ/day of the Lord" are not equivalent.

Again, this isn't from an interpetation, I'm relaying the syntax of the passage.

Much love!

The "departure" is NOT the Rapture

The apostacy is a DEPARTURE from Truth

my precious Brother in Christ @marks, will you believe the Apostle John who said the very SAME prophecy as the Apostle Paul

 

[marks]

The "departure" is NOT the Rapture

Apostasia is departure, requiring something to tell you, "departure from what?", like in Acts 21, "departure from Moses". As a simple noun without any other words to show something more, it means departure. It's commonly thought of as "departure from the faith" or something like that, but I hope you can appreciate that those words don't actually appear there.

If you are looking for an antecedant to what this particular departure might be, you won't find it in this letter, and there is only the vague reference, "remember I told you these things when I was with you?" As I remember my studies, Paul was in the practice of giving his teaching in person, and then following up with letters to reinforce his teachings. If in fact he was referring to that here, it may be that he was speaking of the harpadzo. While this is certainly tenuous, it remains the closest actual explanation from Scripture itself, based on what the Bible says, and not presuppositions such as that the only departure possible there is "from the faith", or "from the church", or whatever words people imagine there, though they are not actually written.

The rapture IS a departure, that is certain. Is it this departure? I think so.

Much love!

 

[marks]

will you believe

Will you believe these things I've shown you so plainly? Will you at the very least consider whether this could be true?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If the day of Christ equals the harpadzo of the church, then why would anyone be troubled by someone saying, Rapture day is here! Wouldn't that be good news?

The concern Paul raised was not about someone falsely claiming that the rapture was about to happen, it was about someone saying that it had already happened. Anyone believing that would be troubled because of thinking they missed the rapture and would have to experience God's wrath instead. If they believed any claim that the rapture already occurred then they would be wondering why they were still on the earth instead of in the air with Christ and the rest of His people. But, if they just remembered what Paul taught them then they would know that wasn't possible. He wanted them to remember that certain things had to happen first before the rapture occurs, so it wasn't as if it could just happen at any time before those things occurred first.

And even so . . . "Has come", as in, the day of Christ has come, is in the perfect tense, it's come, and it remains here. That doesn't fit with the harpadzo that happens, and then it's over.

We need to stick to exactly what the text says.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. But, yes, we do need to stick to exactly what the text says and I don't think you're doing that. The text indicates that Paul labeled Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him as "the day of the Lord" (or "the day of Christ").