To what does the APOSTASIA refer

[David in NJ]

So you are saying the word means departure instead of apostasy. The deception was that apostasy had already happened?

Paul said that they had not departed so the Day of the Lord had not happened yet.

You are as bad as, and in agreement with Amil on that point. No one of Israel was saying they would be raptured. Israel was not looking for a rapture. You have the wrong interpretation of the point, "being gathered together with Him".

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

You are assuming and inserting your brand of eschatology and forcing your interpretation into this verse.

Israel was waiting for their Prince to come and establish an early kingdom. That is the Day of the Lord. The earthly reign of Christ is the Day of the Lord. Now you do not seem that dogmatic on the point of what the Day of the Lord is except, you are stuck, with a lot of folks here, that the Day of the Lord is a period of God's wrath, and then that day is over.

Paul was not speaking out against any one saying they had already been gathered together. Paul was speaking out against those who claimed they were already living in the Day of the Lord. That would be the preterist view, the post millennial view, and the Amillennial view.

Those first century people were not waiting to leave the earth. They were not waiting to live under God's wrath and constant judgment forever. They were waiting to live on the earth with Christ for hundreds of years, or forever.

Jesus said:

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

If there were already many mansions in heaven, why would Jesus need to build more? They were expecting Jesus to return to the earth. Jesus would gather all who are left after the destruction of the wicked and set up an earthly kingdom. At that point it was an unseen kingdom and not a physical earthly kingdom. But they were all waiting for Jesus to come to the earth, and set up a kingdom.

The Day of the Lord is not the wrath and destruction of the wicked. The Day of the Lord is the Sabbath Day of rest.

The false teaching was that they were already living in that earthly kingdom of God, and life was as good as it was going to get. Exactly the point of post mill, and Amil, so they change the whole meaning of the Day of the Lord into a 24 hour period of judgment and wrath instead of a Day of Rest of the Lord, and an earthly kingdom on this present earth.

That would be the start of eternity for them, not a creation experience. This creation would be over and a new eternity, whatever that means.

You call being gathered together a rapture event, because you were taught we all leave this earth. Or sorta, as many say that is all the souls gathered in heaven, as well. You know a soul can be raptured into heaven, no? How would it get there any other way, besides being caught up? Then people don't trust the clear words of Jesus, saying this body of death, returns to dust, and Jesus was preparing a place for the soul, to live in those mansions already up there.

Then Paul said we would meet the Lord in the air, so that has been intepretated by some, that now, Jesus never even comes back and sets up that earthly kingdom for Israel as God promised. Still carrying on that heresy that the kingdom was already on the earth, and life was as good as it would get, until eternity starts, whatever that means. Eternity literally has no beginning nor end, so not sure how it can start at the Second Coming.

If Paul was talking about a departure, he placed that before Satan would be exposed. Then the Day of the Lord would start, that thousand year earthly kingdom of Israel before current creation is replaced by the next creation.

My point is that Jesus and the angels are on the earth for God's judgment, but not necessarily during the 7 vials of God's wrath, nor the actual winepress, before things are made new for the Day of the Lord.

So you are saying the word means departure instead of apostasy

i NEVER substitute Apostacy as "departure from the earth" as the pre-fibbers do

Apostacy is a falling away/departure from the Truth = Matt 24:12 , 1 John 2:18-19 and 1 Timothy 4:1

 

[The PuP]

The apostasia of 2 Thess has been completely misunderstood. The correct understanding comes from Isaiah 6:

Isa 6:10-12 KJV 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, HOW LONG? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

The question of "how long?" refers to how long will Israel be smitten with blindness.
The "great forsaking in the midst of the land" refers to both a physical removal FROM THE LAND OF ISRAEL,

AND,
it refers to great desolation to come upon the land... till the cities are without inhabitant and utterly desolate. This is the detestable abomination that Jesus foretold will come. Paul said that the ordained blindness would end when:

Rom 11:25-27 KJV 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Then will begin the day of the Lord and the time of Jacob's trouble...

2Th 2:2-12 KJV 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Joe 2:1-2 KJV 1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Jer 30:6-8 KJV 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: it is even the time of JACOB'S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Jer 30:18 KJV Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

In 2Thess2, Paul is describing the necessary precursor to the coming of the day of the Lord...a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Isa 10:17-21 KJV 17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day; 18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth. 19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them. 20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

The falling away of 2Th 2 is the removal of the corrupt seed of the house of Israel, until only the remnant remains. Then shall be brought to pass the saying that whosoever shall call on the name of Israel AND all Israel shall be saved. Following up on Joel 2, it says that very thing:

Joe 2:27-32 KJV 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon ALL FLESH; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the REMNANT whom the LORD shall call.

Applying the apostasia to the church is a great miscarriage of scriptural application. The falling away is a necessary precursor to the coming of the DOTL, when the man of sin is to be revealed. God will nor reach down to rescue Israel until only the elect remnant remains.

Mat 24:29-31 KJV 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall ALL the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Isa 11:11-12 KJV 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the REMNANT of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

BE BLESSED
THE PUP

 

[David in NJ]

The apostasia of 2 Thess has been completely misunderstood. The correct understanding comes from Isaiah 6:

Isa 6:10-12 KJV 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, HOW LONG? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

The question of "how long?" refers to how long will Israel be smitten with blindness.
The "great forsaking in the midst of the land" refers to both a physical removal FROM THE LAND OF ISRAEL,

AND,
it refers to great desolation to come upon the land... till the cities are without inhabitant and utterly desolate. This is the detestable abomination that Jesus foretold will come. Paul said that the ordained blindness would end when:

Rom 11:25-27 KJV 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Then will begin the day of the Lord and the time of Jacob's trouble...

2Th 2:2-12 KJV 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Joe 2:1-2 KJV 1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Jer 30:6-8 KJV 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: it is even the time of JACOB'S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Jer 30:18 KJV Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

In 2Thess2, Paul is describing the necessary precursor to the coming of the day of the Lord...a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Isa 10:17-21 KJV 17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day; 18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth. 19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them. 20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

The falling away of 2Th 2 is the removal of the corrupt seed of the house of Israel, until only the remnant remains. Then shall be brought to pass the saying that whosoever shall call on the name of Israel AND all Israel shall be saved. Following up on Joel 2, it says that very thing:

Joe 2:27-32 KJV 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon ALL FLESH; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the REMNANT whom the LORD shall call.

Applying the apostasia to the church is a great miscarriage of scriptural application. The falling away is a necessary precursor to the coming of the DOTL, when the man of sin is to be revealed. God will nor reach down to rescue Israel until only the elect remnant remains.

Mat 24:29-31 KJV 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall ALL the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Isa 11:11-12 KJV 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the REMNANT of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

BE BLESSED
THE PUP

The question of "how long?" refers to how long will Israel be smitten with blindness.
The "great forsaking in the midst of the land" refers to both a physical removal FROM THE LAND OF ISRAEL,

AND,
it refers to great desolation to come upon the land... till the cities are without inhabitant and utterly desolate. This is the detestable abomination that Jesus foretold will come. Paul said that the ordained blindness would end when:

AND all this is DIRECTLY CONNECTED to the Falling Away from the Gospel/Truth/the Echad TRUE Elohim - 1 John 2:18-19

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[The PuP]

AND all this is DIRECTLY CONNECTED to the Falling Away from the Gospel/Truth/the Echad TRUE Elohim - 1 John 2:18-19

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Most people have never bothered to refer to the passage from Joel that Peter "quoted" when he said, "... in the last days...".

Act 2:16-17 KJV 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

But in Joel, it says this:

Joe 2:28-32 KJV 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel says that the outpouring of the spirit would come upon ALL flesh, afterward. And this "all" is referring to the remnant of the whole house of Israel. The after that is spoken of in Joel, is connected to the day of the Lord, WHEN the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the day of the Lord comes. I.e., the outpouring of the Holy spirit will take place AFTER the signs in the sun and moon. This is the time that will mark the time Peter refers to as the last days. Peter wasn't saying that (his day) was the last days. But he was saying that in response to "what meaneth this?" The manifestation of the spirit that was being witnessed, is [NOW] and WILL BE what will be seen in "the last days", but as an outward expression that will come upon the remnant of Israel when ALL Israel shall be saved. BUT, as I quoted earlier, blindness will continue upon the vast majority of the house of Israel until the Deliverer comes and turns away ungodliness from Jacob. The elect of Israel, according to grace, will only constitute a small minority of the house of Israel until that time. The last days that Peter refers to has yet to arrive and will not arrive until the world witnesses the signs in the heavens of the sun and moon.

So how do we reconcile what John says about the "last time" with Joel saying that the "last days" are yet future? There are two ways to reconcile the differences.

Firstly, when John says that even now are there many antichrists, and this is how we KNOW that it is the last time. There are two primary root words in Greek that are translated as "know". Eido and ginosko. Without going into a long discourse, referencing how they are used in Matt 24, let me just say that eido means to experience [know] with the senses, i.e., to see with one's eyes. Whereas, ginosko means to understand [know] with the mind of understanding. I.e., to learn of something to be true. This is really seen from Hebrews 8 where it says:

Heb 8:10-12 KJV 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Under the old covenant, the children of Israel were TAUGHT (by the teaching of the commandments) to know [ginosko] the Lord. But under the new covenant, when the whole house of Israel shall be saved, they will know [eido] the Lord because he has been embedded in their hearts, via the presence of the Holy spirit. They will have an experiential relationship with the Lord, as all who are born of the spirit, even from Peter's day until now. We are saved, not because we have seen the Lord with our very eyes, but because we have believed on him with our hearts. Faith is that for which we hope for, not having seen.

In 1John 2:18, when John says that this is how we KNOW that it is the last time, that word "know" there is the word ginosko. He says that it is our learning, and not the actual experiencing of, the revelation of antichrists, that we KNOW that it is the last time. Yes, there were antichrists in John's time. But, that knowledge of the mind, is how we understand when the last days shall come. John was not saying that it was the last "days" because they were experiencing the presence of antichrists. If it were the "last days" [according to Joel, ] John would have used the word eido, instead of ginosko, because they were experiencing firsthand, the presence of antichrists. More than anything, I think John recognized that it wasn't the same last days that Joel prophesied would come.

So what about John saying, "it is the last time"? Was it the last time in John's day? There are two ways to reconcile this.
1. The "last time" is not the same as the "last days".
2. 1John 2:18 is to be taken into the context of verse 17.

1Jn 2:17-18 KJV 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John is using the clause, "it is the last time", to refer to the time when the world shall pass away. By letting (the 1st use of the word IT as well as the second, since John is acknowledging that the presence of antichrists does not mean that it is the last time, right then) [sic "by letting"] IT refer to the time when the world shall truly pass away, one can sense again that John is not saying that it IS THE LAST TIME, but merely characterizing the last days as when the world shall pass away.

Saying all that, I do not consider us as living in the last days. And it will only be, by the knowledge/understanding of the word that we have, that the last days will not come until there is a great forsaking in the land of Israel, and the man of sin, THE ANTICHRIST, is revealed. I think John knows and acknowledges (the wisdom) that Paul wrote that it is not just the revelation of the man of sin, that constitutes we are living in the last days, but there must come a great falling away too, before we can honestly say that we are living in the last days. Both [falling away and the man of sin] are necessary components to the presence of being the last days.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[Timtofly]

i NEVER substitute Apostacy as "departure from the earth"

Apostacy is a falling away/departure from the Truth = Matt 24:12 , 1 John 2:18-19 and 1 Timothy 4:1

Unless it is not.

Paul never says what the departure is from. You add to Scripture to make it say what you want Scripture to say.

I never said from the earth either. Explain in context what people are departing from.

If Paul was talking about denying the faith, that has already happened, and the reason Paul even wrote. So denying the faith already happened and does not need to happen to fulfil these verses. According to many, the man of sin has been revealed, so nothing in those verses has to happen in most people's eschatology, before the Coming of the Lord.

Do you also understand from Scripture, that the Second Coming has to happen before the Day of the Lord?