To what does the APOSTASIA refer

[Spiritual Israelite]

The message isn't "the rapture already happened", the message is, the day of Christ/Lord is here, with "here" to be understood as, it's come, and it's staying. That day, it's come, to stay. It's in the perfect tense, that's what that tense means.

Why would there be any concern about that? Can you explain exactly what you think Paul was concerned about that they might believe that contradicted what he taught about the day of the Lord?

I believe it makes more sense that the concern Paul had is that some of them might be deceived into thinking they missed the rapture, which, according to 1 Thess 4:14-5:3, would mean they would experience God's wrath instead. He wanted them to remember that certain things had to happen first and that if those things hadn't happened yet, then it would obviously make it impossible that the day of the Lord had come yet.

This is one reason why your interpretation simply doesn't fit with the wording and the syntax of the passage. Your interpretation has them being told, "Rapture day is here to stay", which doesn't make sense, considering the rapture is an event that occurs and then it's over. So these terms, "the gathering to our Lord"/"rapture"/harpadzo, and, "the day of Christ/day of the Lord" are not equivalent.

No, you are missing the context of what Paul's concern was that he didn't want them to believe if anyone tried to tell them that the day of the Lord had already come.

You are missing that Paul's train of thought does not change from 2 Thess 2 verse 1 to verse 2 as if he changed the subject in verse 2, as you believe. Look at it closely. I don't know what your preferred translation is, but this is from the NIV:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

It's clear to me that everything he says in verses 1, 2 and 3 relates to the same event, which is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". There is no indication whatsoever that he changes the subject as it goes from verse 1 to verse 2.

You seem to act as if he said in verse 1: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters" and then in verse 2 basically says "Nevermind about that. I'm going to start talking about a different event instead that doesn't concern "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" instead.

I just can't understand how you conclude that he changes the subject from verse 1 to verse 2. I can't see that at all. It's obvious to me that, to make it easier on himself and reduce the amount of writing he had to do, he just referred to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" as "the day of the Lord" in verse 2. And then he just called it "that day" in verse 3. Clearly, it would've been ridiculous for him to refer to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" in all 3 verses, so he labeled that day that Christ will come and we're gathered to Him as "the day of the Lord". Just like he did in 1 Thess 4:14-5:3.

Again, this isn't from an interpetation, I'm relaying the syntax of the passage.

I don't think so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Both the departure, AND the revealing of the man of sin will precede "that day", that is, the day of the Lord.

Much love!

Which is the day of His coming and our being gathered to Him.

 

[Johann]

Will you believe these things I've shown you so plainly? Will you at the very least consider whether this could be true?

Much love!

Robertson.
Let no man beguile you in any wise (mē tis humas exapatēsēi kata mēdena tropon). First aorist active subjunctive of exapataō (old verb to deceive, strengthened form of simple verb apataō) with double negative (mē tis, mēdena) in accord with regular Greek idiom as in 1Co_16:11 rather than the aorist imperative which does occur sometimes in the third person as in Mar_13:15 (mē katabatō).

Paul broadens the warning to go beyond conversation and letter. He includes “tricks” of any kind. It is amazing how gullible some of the saints are when a new deceiver pulls off some stunts in religion.

For it will not be (hoti). There is an ellipse here of ouk estai (or genēsetai) to be supplied after hoti. Westcott and Hort make an anacoluthon at the end of 2Th_2:4. The meaning is clear. Hoti is causal, because, but the verb is understood. The second coming not only is not “imminent,” but will not take place before certain important things take place, a definite rebuff to the false enthusiasts of 2Th_2:2.

Except the falling away come first (ean mē elthēi hē apostasia prōton). Negative condition of the third class, undetermined with prospect of determination and the aorist subjunctive.

Apostasia is the late form of apostasis and is our word apostasy.

Plutarch uses it of political revolt and it occurs in 1 Maccabees 2:15 about Antiochus Epiphanes who was enforcing the apostasy from Judaism to Hellenism. In Jos_22:22 it occurs for rebellion against the Lord.

It seems clear that the word here means a religious revolt and the use of the definite article (hē) seems to mean that Paul had spoken to the Thessalonians about it.

The only other New Testament use of the word is in Act_21:21 where it means apostasy from Moses.

It is not clear whether Paul means revolt of the Jews from God, of Gentiles from God, of Christians from God, or of the apostasy that includes all classes within and without the body of Christians. But it is to be first (prōton) before Christ comes again. Note this adverb when only two events are compared (cf. Act_1:1).

And the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (kai apokaluphthēi ho anthrōpos tēs anomias, ho huios tēs apōleias). First aorist passive subjunctive after ean mē and same condition as with elthēi. The use of this verb apokaluptō, like apokalupsin of the second coming in 2Th_1:7, seems to note the superhuman character (Milligan) of the event and the same verb is repeated in 2Th_2:6, 2Th_2:8.

The implication is that the man of sin is hidden somewhere who will be suddenly manifested just as false apostles pose as angels of light (2Co_11:13.), whether the crowning event of the apostasy or another name for the same event. Lightfoot notes the parallel between the man of sin, of whom sin is the special characteristic (genitive case, a Hebraism for the lawless one in 2Th_2:8) and Christ. Both Christ and the adversary of Christ are revealed, there is mystery about each, both make divine claims (2Th_2:4). He seems to be the Antichrist of 1Jn_2:18. The terrible phrase, the son of perdition, is applied to Judas in Joh_17:12 (like Judas doomed to perdition), but here to the lawless one (ho anomos, 2Th_2:8), who is not Satan, but some one definite person who is doing the work of Satan. Note the definite article each time.
RWP.

2Th 2:3 No μή one τις should deceive ἐξαπατήσῃ you ὑμᾶς in κατὰ [any] μηδένα way, τρόπον· because [it is] ὅτι not μὴ until ἐὰν the ἡ apostasy ἀποστασία shall have come ἔλθῃ first, πρῶτον and καὶ the ὁ man ἄνθρωπος - τῆς of lawlessness ἀνομίας, shall have been revealed — ἀποκαλυφθῇ the ὁ son υἱὸς - τῆς of destruction, ἀπωλείας,
2Th 2:4 the [one] ὁ opposing ἀντικείμενος and καὶ exalting himself ὑπεραιρόμενος above ἐπὶ every πάντα so-called λεγόμενον god Θεὸν or ἢ object of worship — σέβασμα, so as for ὥστε him αὐτὸν to sit down καθίσαι, in εἰς the τὸν temple ναὸν - τοῦ of God, Θεοῦ setting forth ἀποδεικνύντα that ὅτι he himself ἑαυτὸν is ἔστιν God. Θεός.

Also found this-

falling away. or, apostasy. Gr. apostasia, *S# G646, only here and Act_21:21, The notion that the word "apostasy" (Greek), rendered "falling away" here, is a reference to the Rapture is a gross misunderstanding of the flow of Paul’s argument in this passage, and is absolutely not well supported linguistically. Paul echoes in his instruction what is stated in Dan_12:4, Gesenius in his Hebrew lexicon (page 1001b and 1002a) points out that "to and fro" (Strong Number 7751 in the Hebrew lexicon) differs from another related Hebrew word only by the difference of "s" being read "sh." If read "sh," the word would be Strong Number 7750 in the Hebrew lexicon, defined by Gesenius as "swerve, fall away, apostatize."

Thus this alternative reading would suggest that in the last days apostasy would be rampant. Also at Dan_12:4, "knowledge" may instead be read as "wickedness." This reading is supported by the Septuagint, and with reference to the Hebrew text, is a matter of the difference between the Hebrew letters for "d" and "r," daleth and resh, which are often confused.

If the alternative readings "apostatize" and "wickedness" are correct, the passage in Dan_12:4 becomes strikingly similar to the New Testament prophecies of Paul found in 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:7; 1Ti_4:1; 2Ti_3:1-5, For the confused believers Paul was instructing, the Rapture could NOT be one of the signs which must appear first before the Day of the Lord appears.

No Christian believer of this age would be here to witness it as one of the two signs Paul argues must take place first before the Day of the Lord is at hand, or already present (2Th_2:2), as those believers were misled by false teachers to believe. Recall that the false teachers were teaching that the Thessalonians were already in the Day of the Lord and that the resurrection and Rapture were already past, the cause of their concern, and the reason Paul wrote to correct this heresy.

Paul argues the Rapture had not taken place yet and they could not be in the Day of the Lord for two things must first transpire before the onset of the Day of the Lord: (1) the falling away or apostasy; (2) the revelation of the man of sin, 2Th_2:3,Therefore, in this passage, the Rapture is mentioned before (2Th_2:1) the time of great tribulation that constitutes the Day of the Lord (a better reading from the Greek text than "day of Christ" in the King James Version, 2Th_2:2), consistent with the chronology of events supporting the Pre-tribulation Rapture. Jos_22:22 g (rebellion), *Jos_22:23 g. 2Ch_29:19 g (trespassed). Jer_2:19 g (forsaken). 2Th_2:5, +*Dan_11:35; **Dan_12:4 note. Act_7:39-41; Act_21:21 g. **1Th_1:10 note. Heb_3:12; Heb_10:39, Rev_9:1.
UCRT.

2Th 2:2 for [to not quickly be shaken you] of the mind, nor to be alarmed, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as by us, that [is present the day of the Christ].
2Th 2:3 Let not any completely deceive you in not one manner! for it will not be unless [should come the defection] first, and [should be uncovered the man of sin], the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 the one being an adversary and elevating himself above all being called god or object of worship; so as for him [in the temple of God as God to sit], exhibiting himself that he is God.
ABP
J.

 

[marks]

It seems clear that the word here means a religious revolt and the use of the definite article (hē) seems to mean that Paul had spoken to the Thessalonians about it.

The only other New Testament use of the word is in Act_21:21 where it means apostasy from Moses.

If memory serves me, I found 8 places in the LXX where it was used, most of which would definitely be used of rebellion, I think there were one or two not so clear, but it seemed a good pattern of usage.

Classical Greek, again, if I remember correctly, used the word for an actual departure. I always think of Aristophanes' play "The Birds", where the men are planning their apostasia to the bird city in the sky.

How would we know then apostasy was THIS apostasy? That's something I cannot answer.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

If memory serves me, I found 8 places in the LXX where it was used, most of which would definitely be used of rebellion, I think there were one or two not so clear, but it seemed a good pattern of usage.

Classical Greek, again, if I remember correctly, used the word for an actual departure. I always think of Aristophanes' play "The Birds", where the men are planning their apostasia to the bird city in the sky.

How would we know then apostasy was THIS apostasy? That's something I cannot answer.

Much love!

My apologies-I have made an late edit and correct you are as I also use the LXX. Polyclot 2006 for the NT.

2Th 2:2 for [to not quickly be shaken you] of the mind, nor to be alarmed, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as by us, that [is present the day of the Christ].
2Th 2:3 Let not any completely deceive you in not one manner! for it will not be unless [should come the defection] first, and [should be uncovered the man of sin], the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 the one being an adversary and elevating himself above all being called god or object of worship; so as for him [in the temple of God as God to sit], exhibiting himself that he is God.

And like you, I cannot rightly answer re THIS apostacy.
See the edit.
J.

 

[marks]

The concern Paul raised was not about someone falsely claiming that the rapture was about to happen, it was about someone saying that it had already happened. Anyone believing that would be troubled because of thinking they missed the rapture and would have to experience God's wrath instead.

Exactly! They thought that what they were being told, that the Day of the Lord had arrived, and is here, that this meant they must have missed the rapture, or misunderstood Paul, whatever the reason, they'd expected to be raptured, gathered to the Lord, but now it's supposedly the Day of the Lord, and what about it?

Paul responds, No, that day - the day of the Lord - will only come after the departure and the revealing of the man of sin. So no, it's not the day of the Lord, and no, you haven't missed the rapture.

Remember . . . the rapture is a one time event, it happens, and then it's over. The day of the Lord is come is in the perfect tense, it's arrived, and remains. This is the meaning of the Perfect Tense. An action who's result remains. If it's that the Day of the Lord has come, it means that it arrives and remains here. This is a day, not an event, and that day is of a sort that it remains.

It's like a rung bell. Once a bell is rung, it will ever more be a rung bell. And when that day arrives, it's here, and remains here.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly!

Exactly? How can you say that when I was referring to Paul as talking about the rapture in verse 2 while you don't believe he is referring to the rapture in that verse?

They thought that what they were being told, that the Day of the Lord had arrived, and is here, that this meant they must have missed the rapture, or misunderstood Paul, whatever the reason, they'd expected to be raptured, gathered to the Lord, but now it's supposedly the Day of the Lord, and what about it?

Huh? I thought you indicated that you think the rapture is a different event from the day of the Lord? I can't make any sense of what you're saying.

Paul responds, No, that day - the day of the Lord - will only come after the departure and the revealing of the man of sin. So no, it's not the day of the Lord, and no, you haven't missed the rapture.

I just cannot understand what you're saying at all. How long after the rapture do you think the day of the Lord occurs or begins?

Remember . . . the rapture is a one time event, it happens, and then it's over.

Yeah...so?

The day of the Lord is come is in the perfect tense, it's arrived, and remains.

I don't know what you're talking about. Tell me your understanding of what the day of the Lord is. Please tell me how you interpret these passages that refer to the day of the Lord and then maybe I can have an idea of what you're getting at.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I don't get any sense from passages like these that the day of the Lord is an event that comes and remains for some amount of time, so please show me where you get that idea from. Don't talk to me about tense.

This is the meaning of the Perfect Tense. An action who's result remains.

Remember, Paul is warning them about a false teaching that they might have heard or read about the day of the Lord having come and wasn't himself saying anything about the day of the Lord coming, so you should not read too much into it as if Paul himself was saying the day of the Lord is something that comes and remains. Especially if you read what he wrote in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and compare it to 2 Peter 3:10-12.

If it's that the Day of the Lord has come, it means that it arrives and remains here.

Scripture doesn't teach this. Maybe the ones trying to peddle their false teaching that Paul warned about were saying that, but scripture doesn't.

This is a day, not an event, and that day is of a sort that it remains.

Prove that with scripture. I'm not going to take your word for that. I don't see that indicated in scripture.

 

[David in NJ]

Will you believe these things I've shown you so plainly? Will you at the very least consider whether this could be true?

Much love!

Sure would if you were any of the three Apostles: John , Paul or Peter

Sure would if you were James who wrote the Book/Letter of James

These Anointed and Appointed men bear Witness by the Holy Spirit that the apostacy/falling away/departure is NOT the Rapture.

QUESTION of the DAY for @marks : Will you BELIEVE the Apostle John who bears witness to 2 Thess 2: 1-4

 

[David in NJ]

Apostasia is departure, requiring something to tell you, "departure from what?", like in Acts 21, "departure from Moses". As a simple noun without any other words to show something more, it means departure. It's commonly thought of as "departure from the faith" or something like that, but I hope you can appreciate that those words don't actually appear there.

If you are looking for an antecedant to what this particular departure might be, you won't find it in this letter, and there is only the vague reference, "remember I told you these things when I was with you?" As I remember my studies, Paul was in the practice of giving his teaching in person, and then following up with letters to reinforce his teachings. If in fact he was referring to that here, it may be that he was speaking of the harpadzo. While this is certainly tenuous, it remains the closest actual explanation from Scripture itself, based on what the Bible says, and not presuppositions such as that the only departure possible there is "from the faith", or "from the church", or whatever words people imagine there, though they are not actually written.

The rapture IS a departure, that is certain. Is it this departure? I think so.

Much love!

The rapture IS a departure, that is certain.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE

Is it this departure?

ABSOLUTELY NOT

 

[David in NJ]

Will you believe these things I've shown you so plainly? Will you at the very least consider whether this could be true?

Much love!

Will you at the very least consider whether this could be true?

my Brother in Christ @marks

i will always consider AND believe the TRUTH

FYI - i was SAVED 40 years ago and spent many years in churches with brethren studying pre-trib rapture

SHALOM

 

[David in NJ]

Robertson.
Let no man beguile you in any wise (mē tis humas exapatēsēi kata mēdena tropon). First aorist active subjunctive of exapataō (old verb to deceive, strengthened form of simple verb apataō) with double negative (mē tis, mēdena) in accord with regular Greek idiom as in 1Co_16:11 rather than the aorist imperative which does occur sometimes in the third person as in Mar_13:15 (mē katabatō).

Paul broadens the warning to go beyond conversation and letter. He includes “tricks” of any kind. It is amazing how gullible some of the saints are when a new deceiver pulls off some stunts in religion.

For it will not be (hoti). There is an ellipse here of ouk estai (or genēsetai) to be supplied after hoti. Westcott and Hort make an anacoluthon at the end of 2Th_2:4. The meaning is clear. Hoti is causal, because, but the verb is understood. The second coming not only is not “imminent,” but will not take place before certain important things take place, a definite rebuff to the false enthusiasts of 2Th_2:2.

Except the falling away come first (ean mē elthēi hē apostasia prōton). Negative condition of the third class, undetermined with prospect of determination and the aorist subjunctive.

Apostasia is the late form of apostasis and is our word apostasy.

Plutarch uses it of political revolt and it occurs in 1 Maccabees 2:15 about Antiochus Epiphanes who was enforcing the apostasy from Judaism to Hellenism. In Jos_22:22 it occurs for rebellion against the Lord.

It seems clear that the word here means a religious revolt and the use of the definite article (hē) seems to mean that Paul had spoken to the Thessalonians about it.

The only other New Testament use of the word is in Act_21:21 where it means apostasy from Moses.

It is not clear whether Paul means revolt of the Jews from God, of Gentiles from God, of Christians from God, or of the apostasy that includes all classes within and without the body of Christians. But it is to be first (prōton) before Christ comes again. Note this adverb when only two events are compared (cf. Act_1:1).

And the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (kai apokaluphthēi ho anthrōpos tēs anomias, ho huios tēs apōleias). First aorist passive subjunctive after ean mē and same condition as with elthēi. The use of this verb apokaluptō, like apokalupsin of the second coming in 2Th_1:7, seems to note the superhuman character (Milligan) of the event and the same verb is repeated in 2Th_2:6, 2Th_2:8.

The implication is that the man of sin is hidden somewhere who will be suddenly manifested just as false apostles pose as angels of light (2Co_11:13.), whether the crowning event of the apostasy or another name for the same event. Lightfoot notes the parallel between the man of sin, of whom sin is the special characteristic (genitive case, a Hebraism for the lawless one in 2Th_2:8) and Christ. Both Christ and the adversary of Christ are revealed, there is mystery about each, both make divine claims (2Th_2:4). He seems to be the Antichrist of 1Jn_2:18. The terrible phrase, the son of perdition, is applied to Judas in Joh_17:12 (like Judas doomed to perdition), but here to the lawless one (ho anomos, 2Th_2:8), who is not Satan, but some one definite person who is doing the work of Satan. Note the definite article each time.
RWP.

2Th 2:3 No μή one τις should deceive ἐξαπατήσῃ you ὑμᾶς in κατὰ [any] μηδένα way, τρόπον· because [it is] ὅτι not μὴ until ἐὰν the ἡ apostasy ἀποστασία shall have come ἔλθῃ first, πρῶτον and καὶ the ὁ man ἄνθρωπος - τῆς of lawlessness ἀνομίας, shall have been revealed — ἀποκαλυφθῇ the ὁ son υἱὸς - τῆς of destruction, ἀπωλείας,
2Th 2:4 the [one] ὁ opposing ἀντικείμενος and καὶ exalting himself ὑπεραιρόμενος above ἐπὶ every πάντα so-called λεγόμενον god Θεὸν or ἢ object of worship — σέβασμα, so as for ὥστε him αὐτὸν to sit down καθίσαι, in εἰς the τὸν temple ναὸν - τοῦ of God, Θεοῦ setting forth ἀποδεικνύντα that ὅτι he himself ἑαυτὸν is ἔστιν God. Θεός.

Also found this-

falling away. or, apostasy. Gr. apostasia, *S# G646, only here and Act_21:21, The notion that the word "apostasy" (Greek), rendered "falling away" here, is a reference to the Rapture is a gross misunderstanding of the flow of Paul’s argument in this passage, and is absolutely not well supported linguistically. Paul echoes in his instruction what is stated in Dan_12:4, Gesenius in his Hebrew lexicon (page 1001b and 1002a) points out that "to and fro" (Strong Number 7751 in the Hebrew lexicon) differs from another related Hebrew word only by the difference of "s" being read "sh." If read "sh," the word would be Strong Number 7750 in the Hebrew lexicon, defined by Gesenius as "swerve, fall away, apostatize."

Thus this alternative reading would suggest that in the last days apostasy would be rampant. Also at Dan_12:4, "knowledge" may instead be read as "wickedness." This reading is supported by the Septuagint, and with reference to the Hebrew text, is a matter of the difference between the Hebrew letters for "d" and "r," daleth and resh, which are often confused.

If the alternative readings "apostatize" and "wickedness" are correct, the passage in Dan_12:4 becomes strikingly similar to the New Testament prophecies of Paul found in 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:7; 1Ti_4:1; 2Ti_3:1-5, For the confused believers Paul was instructing, the Rapture could NOT be one of the signs which must appear first before the Day of the Lord appears.

No Christian believer of this age would be here to witness it as one of the two signs Paul argues must take place first before the Day of the Lord is at hand, or already present (2Th_2:2), as those believers were misled by false teachers to believe. Recall that the false teachers were teaching that the Thessalonians were already in the Day of the Lord and that the resurrection and Rapture were already past, the cause of their concern, and the reason Paul wrote to correct this heresy.

Paul argues the Rapture had not taken place yet and they could not be in the Day of the Lord for two things must first transpire before the onset of the Day of the Lord: (1) the falling away or apostasy; (2) the revelation of the man of sin, 2Th_2:3,Therefore, in this passage, the Rapture is mentioned before (2Th_2:1) the time of great tribulation that constitutes the Day of the Lord (a better reading from the Greek text than "day of Christ" in the King James Version, 2Th_2:2), consistent with the chronology of events supporting the Pre-tribulation Rapture. Jos_22:22 g (rebellion), *Jos_22:23 g. 2Ch_29:19 g (trespassed). Jer_2:19 g (forsaken). 2Th_2:5, +*Dan_11:35; **Dan_12:4 note. Act_7:39-41; Act_21:21 g. **1Th_1:10 note. Heb_3:12; Heb_10:39, Rev_9:1.
UCRT.

2Th 2:2 for [to not quickly be shaken you] of the mind, nor to be alarmed, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as by us, that [is present the day of the Christ].
2Th 2:3 Let not any completely deceive you in not one manner! for it will not be unless [should come the defection] first, and [should be uncovered the man of sin], the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 the one being an adversary and elevating himself above all being called god or object of worship; so as for him [in the temple of God as God to sit], exhibiting himself that he is God.
ABP
J.

Also at Dan_12:4, "knowledge" may instead be read as "wickedness."

i agree and would add that the knowledge is being used by wicked men for their wickedness/lusts and rebellion

As with all things God declared "Good", the wickedness of men corrupt that which God originally intended for our Good.

We see this very application in Paul's letter to the Romans:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

We FURTHER SEE the Culmination of their knowledge/technology in a vain attempt to overthrow the Second Coming of Christ.

Since you love searching Truth in the scriptures(and you know them) - Psalm 2 , Rev ch19

 

[marks]

Exactly? How can you say that when I was referring to Paul as talking about the rapture in verse 2 while you don't believe he is referring to the rapture in that verse?

You said they were concerned that they had missed the rapture, I fully agree.

On the rest, I think we are going in circles.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Exactly? How can you say that when I was referring to Paul as talking about the rapture in verse 2 while you don't believe he is referring to the rapture in that verse?


Huh? I thought you indicated that you think the rapture is a different event from the day of the Lord? I can't make any sense of what you're saying.


I just cannot understand what you're saying at all. How long after the rapture do you think the day of the Lord occurs or begins?


Yeah...so?


I don't know what you're talking about. Tell me your understanding of what the day of the Lord is. Please tell me how you interpret these passages that refer to the day of the Lord and then maybe I can have an idea of what you're getting at.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I don't get any sense from passages like these that the day of the Lord is an event that comes and remains for some amount of time, so please show me where you get that idea from. Don't talk to me about tense.


Remember, Paul is warning them about a false teaching that they might have heard or read about the day of the Lord having come and wasn't himself saying anything about the day of the Lord coming, so you should not read too much into it as if Paul himself was saying the day of the Lord is something that comes and remains. Especially if you read what he wrote in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and compare it to 2 Peter 3:10-12.


Scripture doesn't teach this. Maybe the ones trying to peddle their false teaching that Paul warned about were saying that, but scripture doesn't.


Prove that with scripture. I'm not going to take your word for that. I don't see that indicated in scripture.

Huh? I thought you indicated that you think the rapture is a different event from the day of the Lord?

EXACTLY

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said they were concerned that they had missed the rapture, I fully agree.

On the rest, I think we are going in circles.

Much love!

First of all, no one said anyone was actually concerned. Paul was warning them not to be concerned about that IF they heard or read anyone saying that. But, please explain how you fully agree with that when you don't even believe the rapture is referenced in 2 Thess 2:2? How can you think that had anything to do with what Paul was concerned about them possibly believing when you don't even think the rapture is referenced in that verse?

You don't think Paul was telling them to not believe anyone saying that the rapture had already occurred, you said you believe he was telling them not to believe that the day of the Lord, which you see as something different than the rapture, had already come.

 

[David in NJ]

@marks

Do you see yourself as having greater understanding then the Apostles Paul and John???

 

[Johann]

i agree and would add that the knowledge is being used by wicked men for their wickedness/lusts and rebellion

As with all things God declared "Good", the wickedness of men corrupt that which God originally intended for our Good.

We see this very application in Paul's letter to the Romans:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

We FURTHER SEE the Culmination of their knowledge/technology in a vain attempt to overthrow the Second Coming of Christ.

Since you love searching Truth in the scriptures(and you know them) - Psalm 2 , Rev ch19

Dear brother, 01.54 AM here in South Africa and not shy to inform you I love the teaching of Utley-a professor in hermeneutics.

Free Bible Commentaries and Bible Study Tools

Bible commentaries and Bible study tools by Dr. Bob Utley, Professor of Bible Interpretation. Text, MP3 and video lessons and sermons in 48 languages.

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Hundreds of sermons, mp3's and video clips-Texan Baptist minister.

Shalom Achi.
J.

 

[Johann]

@marks

Do you see yourself as having greater understanding then the Apostles Paul and John???

Marks is humble brother.

"to the effect that the day of the Lord has come" This is a PERFECT ACTIVE INDICATIVE, i.e., "The day of the Lord had come." This whole theological issue about eschatology was the major problem Paul was trying to clear up with this church. The remainder of 2 Thess. 2:3-12 is an explanation as to why this statement cannot be true (cf. Matt. 24:23,26). The events that accompany the Second Coming had not yet begun (see Contextual Insights, C.).

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE DAY OF THE LORD

SPECIAL TOPIC: DELAYED SECOND COMING

2:3
NASB  "Let no one in any way deceive you"
NKJV, Peshitta  "Let no one deceive you by any means"
NRSV, REB  "Let no one deceive you in any way"
TEV  "Do not let anyone fool you in any way"
NJB  "Never let anyone deceive you in this way"
This is a strong DOUBLE NEGATIVE with an AORIST ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE + tis, implying a personal agency. Apparently purposeful deception was occurring.

"for it will not come unless" This is a THIRD CLASS CONDITIONAL SENTNECE. Some events must happen first (see Contextual Insights, C.). This Second Coming was not imminent. In this context, two events are mentioned:

the great apostasy
the revealing of "the man of sin"
SPECIAL TOPIC: A DELAYED SECOND COMING

NASB  "the apostasy comes first"
NKJV  "the falling away comes first"
NRSV  "the rebellion comes first"
TEV  "the final Rebellion takes place"
NJB  "the Great Revolt has taken place"
Peshitta  "unless it is preceded by a rebellion"
REB  "the final rebellion against God"
This compound term apo + histēmi, literally means "to stand away from." It can be used in a negative sense (rebellion) or a positive sense (away from sin, cf. 2 Tim. 2:19). This word was used in Greek literature (Plutarch and Acts 5:37) of political or military rebellion, but in the Septuagint (cf. Josh. 22:22) and Apocrypha, it often refers to spiritual rebellion. Who is rebelling is uncertain, but they are rejecting God and His Messiah, even trying to replace Him.

The identity of those who apostacize is uncertain. Here are some options from the NT period.

Jewish false Messiahs (i.e., related to the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, cf. Matt. 24:5) and Jewish false prophets (cf. Matt. 24:11)
Jewish or Roman governmental persecution (cf Matt. 24:9)
Greek oriented false teachers (i.e., Gnostics, cf. 1 John 2:18-19; also 1 Tim. 4:1-2; 2 Tim. 3:1-13)
These options caused many loosely attached "believers" to reject the faith. This rejection of "many" (cf. Matt. 24:10) may be characterized as an apostasy with the believing community.

SPECIAL TOPIC: APOSTASY

SPECIAL TOPIC: QUESTIONS ABOUT JESUS' RETURN

SPECIAL TOPIC: GNOSTICISM

NASB  "the man of lawlessness is revealed"
NKJV, Peshitta  "the man of sin is revealed"
NRSV  "the lawless one is revealed"
TEV  "the Wicked One appears"
NJB  "the Rebel. . .has appeared"
REB  "wickedness will be revealed in human form"
There is a Greek manuscript variant here.

"Lawlessness" is found in the Greek uncial manuscripts א, B, the Coptic and Armenean translations, and the Greek texts used by Origen and Marcion (according to Tertullian)
"Sin" is found in manuscripts A, D, F, G. K, L, P, and the Vulgate and Syriac translations and was known by most early church fathers.
"Lawlessness" (anomias) is rare in Paul's writings (cf. Rom. 4:7; 6:19; Titus 2:14). Scribes may have substituted the more familiar term "sin" (hamartias). The term "lawlessness" (i.e., "mystery of lawlessness") is used in 2 Thess. 2:7.
The UBS4 rates "lawlessness" as "almost certain" (B).
Satan is not addressed in v. 3 as he is in 2 Thess. 2:9. This refers to his yielded servant, his human incarnation (a parody of Christ, cf. Rev. 13:1-8). Paul never used the term "Anti-Christ," but 1 John 2:18; 4:3; and 2 John 7 (written after Paul's death) refer to the same person. In 1 John the terms "sin" and "lawlessness" are are equated (cf. 1 John 3:4).

It is possible that Paul's "man of lawlessness" is related to the Jewish apocalyptic personification of "the worthless one" (belial) into a false Messiah, a Satanically inspired world leader. The term may be used in this sense in

Deut. 13:13, one who leads others away from YHWH to false gods
1 Sam. 2:12, one who does not know YHWH
Nahum 1:15, personified evil
Book of Jubilees 1:20, personified spirit
Ascension of Isaiah, 4:18
The VERB is an AORIST PASSIVE SUBJUNCTIVE. The PASSIVE VOICE implies an outside agent. God, not Satan, is in control of history. In God's time (cf. 2 Thess. 2:6) this parody of Christ, this incarnated evil, this servant of Satan will be allowed to manifest himself in history (the term "reveal" was used for Christ's revelation in 2 Thess. 1:7).

The SUBJUNCTIVE MOOD does not imply that it may not occur, but confirms the ambiguous, but future, time of the revelation (cf. 2 Thess. 2:6,8).

Notice the phrases that describe this end-time person.

"the man of lawlessness," v. 3
"the son of destruction," v. 3
"who opposes," v. 4
"who exalts himself," v. 4
"so that he takes his seat in the temple of God," v. 4
"displaying himself as being God," v. 4
This person not only opposes God, but tries to replace Him! The PREPOSITION "anti" originally meant "in the place of" and later came to mean "against." Both of these connotations fit this man of lawlessness. He wants power, control, and worship. The essence of the Fall, human and angelic independence, is personified (cf. Dan. 11:3,16,36).

In so many ways these descriptions characterize fallen human kings and potentates (i.e., like "the Little Horn" of Daniel 7). A good example is Nero!

2 THESSALONIANS 2

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Please read this and give me what you think.
J.

 

[David in NJ]

Dear brother, 01.54 AM here in South Africa and not shy to inform you I love the teaching of Utley-a professor in hermeneutics.

Free Bible Commentaries and Bible Study Tools

Bible commentaries and Bible study tools by Dr. Bob Utley, Professor of Bible Interpretation. Text, MP3 and video lessons and sermons in 48 languages.

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Hundreds of sermons, mp3's and video clips-Texan Baptist minister.

Shalom Achi.
J.

Did you look at Psalm 2:1-6 and Rev 19:19 as they speak of the SAME event

 

[Johann]

Did you look at Psalm 2:1-6 and Rev 19:19 as they speak of the SAME event

Psa 2:1 Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples meditate vanity?
Psa 2:2 Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have been united together, Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah:
Psa 2:3 'Let us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.'
Psa 2:4 He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them.
Psa 2:5 Then doth He speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble them:
Psa 2:6 'And I—I have anointed My King, Upon Zion—My holy hill.'

Rev 19:11 And I saw the heaven having been opened, and lo, a white horse, and he who is sitting upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness doth he judge and war,
Rev 19:12 and his eyes are as a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems—having a name written that no one hath known, except himself,
Rev 19:13 and he is arrayed with a garment covered with blood, and his name is called, The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in the heaven were following him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen—white and pure;
Rev 19:15 and out of his mouth doth proceed a sharp sword, that with it he may smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he doth tread the press of the wine of the wrath and the anger of God the Almighty,
Rev 19:16 and he hath upon the garment and upon his thigh the name written, 'King of kings, and Lord of lords.'
Rev 19:17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, 'Come and be gathered together to the supper of the great God,
Rev 19:18 that ye may eat flesh of kings, and flesh of chiefs of thousands, and flesh of strong men, and flesh of horses, and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all—freemen and servants—both small and great.'
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;
Rev 19:20 and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast—the two—to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;
Rev 19:21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him who is sitting on the horse, which sword is proceeding out of his mouth, and all the birds were filled out of their flesh.


Did you read what I have given you- David?
J.

 

[David in NJ]

Psa 2:1 Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples meditate vanity?
Psa 2:2 Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have been united together, Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah:
Psa 2:3 'Let us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.'
Psa 2:4 He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them.
Psa 2:5 Then doth He speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble them:
Psa 2:6 'And I—I have anointed My King, Upon Zion—My holy hill.'

Rev 19:11 And I saw the heaven having been opened, and lo, a white horse, and he who is sitting upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness doth he judge and war,
Rev 19:12 and his eyes are as a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems—having a name written that no one hath known, except himself,
Rev 19:13 and he is arrayed with a garment covered with blood, and his name is called, The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in the heaven were following him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen—white and pure;
Rev 19:15 and out of his mouth doth proceed a sharp sword, that with it he may smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he doth tread the press of the wine of the wrath and the anger of God the Almighty,
Rev 19:16 and he hath upon the garment and upon his thigh the name written, 'King of kings, and Lord of lords.'
Rev 19:17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, 'Come and be gathered together to the supper of the great God,
Rev 19:18 that ye may eat flesh of kings, and flesh of chiefs of thousands, and flesh of strong men, and flesh of horses, and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all—freemen and servants—both small and great.'
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;
Rev 19:20 and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast—the two—to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;
Rev 19:21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him who is sitting on the horse, which sword is proceeding out of his mouth, and all the birds were filled out of their flesh.


Did you read what I have given you- David?
J.

i read (quickly) Post 177

i am getting ready to retire for the night as i have a big dead tree to cut down
it cannot be cut from the ground = i must climb to the top and piece it down

prayer for safety is appreciated