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Matthias

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You are playing games here-word salads.

The Hebrew word yachid (יָחִיד), meaning "only" or "solitary," could have been used if absolute singularity were the intended meaning. However, yachid is not used in the Shema or in other descriptions of God’s nature, suggesting that echad was chosen to convey a broader, more inclusive sense of unity.

Theological Implications:

While echad in isolation does not prove a Trinitarian understanding, its usage does not preclude a composite unity.

In fact, the consistent application of echad in contexts of collective or relational unity provides a foundation for the Christian interpretation of the term as inclusive of a complex unity within the Godhead.

Your assertion that echad carries no implication of plurality is linguistically inaccurate.


Its usage in biblical Hebrew demonstrates that it can describe both singularity and unified plurality, depending on the context. While echad does not inherently teach the doctrine of the Trinity, its application within the Hebrew Scriptures is compatible with the concept of a complex unity, as understood in Christian theology.

Dr. Michael Brown, a Messianic Jewish scholar, explains that the Hebrew word echad (אֶחָד) translates to "one," similar to the English word. He notes that while echad can denote a singular entity, it is also used in contexts implying a composite unity.

For instance, in Genesis 2:24, a man and woman become "one flesh" (basar echad), indicating a unified entity composed of two individuals. Dr. Brown contrasts echad with yachid (יָחִיד), which signifies an absolute singularity or "only one." He argues that if the Hebrew Scriptures intended to portray God as an absolute singularity, yachid would have been used instead of echad.
ANSWERING ISLAM

This distinction suggests that the use of echad in passages like Deuteronomy 6:4 ("Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one") does not exclude the possibility of a complex unity within the nature of God. Dr. Brown emphasizes that while echad means "one," it does not inherently imply absolute singularity, allowing for interpretations of divine complexity.
ANSWERING ISLAM



J.

I’m not playing a word game here or anywhere else. One means one, not more than one. It works the same way in Hebrew as it does in English, or in any other language.

The Messiah’s God is one person, not more than one person.

The Messiah’s God is echad, not yachid.

Yachid occurs a dozen times in scripture and is never used to describe the Messiah’s God.

If I asked you to hold up echad finger, would you hold up one finger or more than one finger?
 

Behold

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Tempting....the HS is the unsung hero of the Father himself, and sometimes the bane for Trinitarians

Jesus is the Jn1 " Word was God" , who became the SON.

God is not the Son, but "God is A Spirit"... (The Holy Spirit).

"Jesus is THAT Spirit".

So, we see, Father, Son, Spirit..

That is Father, and Word who became the Son, and The Holy Spirit.

That is 3<>ONE

This math works out every time, unless you just dont like Math... Reader
 

APAK

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You are playing games here-word salads.

The Hebrew word yachid (יָחִיד), meaning "only" or "solitary," could have been used if absolute singularity were the intended meaning. However, yachid is not used in the Shema or in other descriptions of God’s nature, suggesting that echad was chosen to convey a broader, more inclusive sense of unity.
You are completely wrong in your assumption and conclusion that echad suggests a broader and more inclusive sense of unity. In fact this thought is evil and poison.

Yachid is only used about 12 times in the entire Bible and then only in a narrow, specific sense. Whilst echad in used hundreds of time to mean only the cardinal numeric one.

We find Yachid is never used to describe God anywhere in the entire Bible!

But it's used to describe Isaac the foreshadowing representation of the Messiah: Gen. 22:2, 12, 16.

It is also used at Judges 11:34 for an only-begotten child.

The ancient Greek Septuagint translates Yachid at Judges 11:34 as monogenes ("only-begotten"): the same NT Greek word repeatedly used to describe Christ.

Monogenes, however, like the Hebrew Yachid, is never used to describe the only true God (who is the Father alone).


Echad in Deut 6:4 - Shema, recited everyday by the genuine Jews/Judahites

We find in English translation:

"The LORD is our God, the LORD alone." - New Revised Standard Version.
"The LORD is our God, the LORD alone!" - New American Bible.

"The LORD is our God, the LORD alone." - The Holy Bible in the Language of Today, Beck (Lutheran).

"Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh." - New Jerusalem Bible.

"Yahweh is our God, - Yahweh alone." - The Emphasized Bible, Rotherham.

"The LORD is our God, the LORD alone." - An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed).

"The Eternal, the Eternal alone, is our God." - A New Translation, Moffatt .


Find some recognized trinitarian authority on Biblical Hebrew if they have written somewhere that echad means "united or plural oneness." I haven't found one yet! They all have stuck to the one, only one God statement alone.
 

Behold

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"The LORD is our God, the LORD alone." - New Revised Standard Version.

Yes..

and also this...

""""""that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11: and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD..",

and this..

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both LORD and Messiah.”
 
J

Johann

Guest
If I asked you to hold up echad finger, would you hold up one finger or more than one finger?
When speaking of God's oneness, what we see is a mix of words, both in the Hebrew and the Greek. There does not appear to be a clear pattern of usage: In the Old Testament, "echad" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "bad" is also used which means a numeric oneness. Similarly, in the New Testament, "hen" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "monos" is also used which means a numeric oneness.

These facts delight Trinitarians and send Anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians alike scurrying for the shadows.

While Trinitarians would expect both kinds of words to be used in reference to God, Anti-Trinitarian are left with their mouths hanging open in bewilderment.

To make matters even worse, the word "monos" is not only used of God's oneness (John 5:44; 17:3), but also Jesus is said to be the "monos Master", "monos Lord" and "monos Sovereign" (1 Timothy 6:16; Jude 4).

This proves that Jn 17:3 no more excludes Jesus from being "true God" than 1 Timothy 6:16 and Jude 4 exclude the Father from being Master, Lord and Sovereign.

(The official interpretation of 1 Timothy 6:16 the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower is that 1 Timothy 6:16 is speaking solely of Christ.) Click here for a detailed look at this powerful argument in John 17:3.

Anti-Trinitarians who reject the fact that "echad" means a unified one between individuals, should always remember that shortly after the rise of Christianity, the Jews replaced "echad" with "yachid" in Deut 6:4.

Obviously these Jews who knew the Hebrew language 2000 years ago, saw something modern Unitarians do not.


So in the end it is a win-win for Trinitarians! It is most devastating to Jews and Anti-Trinitarians that Deut 6:4 uses "echad", the word for a unified one between individuals. The same word echad is used to say that God is one and that husband and wife are one. This laid the ground work for the Trinity to be revealed in Christ and his apostles who could look back to the most important Jewish Bible verse and show them Jesus was there too!

Instead of converting to Christianity, the Jews twisted the word of God and started telling lies about the resurrection of Jesus.

Zechariah prophesied that at the time of the Messiah all will know that God is one: "And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one [echad]." (Zechariah 14:9)
Again the unified word for one is used!

If ever there was a place YACHID would have been used, this would have been it, but no, the unified one was used.
Today Jews live under a veil of darkness unable to come to the truth:

"But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." (2 Corinthians 3:14–16)


OT Proof That Echad Does Not Point to God Being Uni-Personal
The following verse functions as the creed, or confession of faith, which the Israelites were to live by:

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one (echad) Lord:” Deuteronomy 6:4

Oftentimes, anti-Trinitarians will cite this text as proof that God is a singular Person, not just a singular Being, in order to show that Trinitarianism is incompatible with the biblical revelation, particularly with the [O]ld [T]estament’s proclamation of Jehovah being one eternal divine Person.

In this post I am going to provide evidence to the contrary, citing examples to prove that, instead of refuting the fact of God’s eternally existing as a multi-Personal Being, echad actually supports this divinely revealed truth.

Notice carefully what the following passages teach:

“Did not HE that made me in the womb make him? and did not ONE (echad) fashion us in the womb?” Job 31:15

“Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF;” Isaiah 44:24

These inspired texts affirm that the same one God made and fashioned the entire creation all by himself. The passage from Job even uses the very term echad to emphasize this fact.

Herein lies the problem for the unitarian. These same sacred writings emphatically testify that the one eternal Creator and Sustainer of all things is multi-Personal. Note, for instance, the following texts:

“But none saith, Where is God my maker (Eloah ‘Osay), who giveth songs in the night;” Job 35:10

‘Osay is the masculine singular plural participle form of asah, and literally means “my Makers.”

“Remember now thy Creator (Bor’eka) in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;” Ecclesiastes 12:1

Bor’eka is the masculine singular plural participle form of barah, and literally says “thy Creators.”

“For thy Maker (‘Osayik) is thine husband (Bo’alayik); the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.” Isaiah 54:5

‘Osayik is the plural participle form of asah, and Bo’alayik is the plural participle form of baal. The text literally reads, “For thy Makers are thine Husbands.”

We, thus, have the Hebrew Bible explicitly bearing witness to the fact that the Creator and Sustainer of all things is a multi-Personal Being, a point affirmed in the next set of passages:

“By HIS SPIRIT (Rucho) he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.” Job 26:13

“The Spirit (Ruach) of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4 Job 33:4

Here we have God’s Spirit fashioning the heavens and making mankind. And:

“And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I WILL MULTIPLY THY SEED EXCEEDINGLY, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Wherefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.” Genesis 16:7-14


J.
 
J

Johann

Guest
You are completely wrong in your assumption and conclusion that echad suggests a broader and more inclusive sense of unity. In fact this thought is evil and poison.
Nope-I am taking an honest look at the Scriptures and I know it is biblically sound and correct.

Shalom.

J.
 

APAK

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Yes..

and also this...

""""""that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11: and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD..",

and this..

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both LORD and Messiah.”
How naive to trust a translation or of your own doing that LORD - all caps applies to the Son of God. It does not and never has. His, the Son is either Lord or better yet lord to distinguish his 'lower' lordship from his God who is the only All caps LORD.

And his Father, God, made his son a lord and you still attempt to push and elevate his title only meant for his Father as his aswell, with LORD!

How ignorant!

I'm surprised you cling on to this nonsense as some kind of truth. Maybe I should not be surprised as I have read many of your ridiculous posts that show your obvious ignorance of scripture.

Now Behold read scripture that shows truth not lies you continually spout out:

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (KJV)

You just made your verse up by adding in LORD and not Lord didn't you...!

(Php 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (KJV)

You again just made your verse up by adding in LORD and not Lord didn't you...!

Shame on you....
 

Behold

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And his Father, God, made his son a lord and

And your knee is going to bow to this Lord and your Tongue is going to confess Him as Lord.

Get ready.

you still attempt to push and elevate his title only meant for his Father as his aswell, with LORD!

You have no idea what you are trying to teach.

Notice

Matthew 22:44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?..


See the Lord <> Lord?

Where are the Caps?

Now, go and run to your commentaries.... and what tomorrow, or in about an hour, you'll try to use that junk to pretend you are the authority.

Good luck.

Also, do you have any Threads that you've written that are not about your obsession with the Trinity?

Am i missing them?

You just made your verse up by adding in LORD and not Lord didn't you...!

Again..

44 : The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

So, get out your online sites and your best commentary, and you'll still be clueless. @APAK

Now look again.

Jesus made the world.........that is John 1:10 ......... This is confirmed by Colossians 1:16..

Now who made the world in Genesis?

Its the SAME...

Here is the Mystery... It this......Because God Spoke creation into existence, and Pre-incarnate Jesus is the Word......

Now do the math.

God Spoke = the Word, and Jesus is that Word, pre-incarnate.

So, that is the same doing the Creating, yet is 2.
 
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Matthias

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When speaking of God's oneness, what we see is a mix of words, both in the Hebrew and the Greek. There does not appear to be a clear pattern of usage: In the Old Testament, "echad" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "bad" is also used which means a numeric oneness. Similarly, in the New Testament, "hen" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "monos" is also used which means a numeric oneness.

These facts delight Trinitarians and send Anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians alike scurrying for the shadows.

I can’t and don’t speak for all “Anti-Trinitarians” and as a Jewish monotheist nothing you’ve written has sent me scurrying for the shadows. I’ll eventually be commenting on the Greek words hen and heis. It’s an important distinction that I have to use against trinitarians and unitarians in my defense of Jewish monotheism.
To make matters even worse, the word "monos" is not only used of God's oneness (John 5:44; 17:3), but also Jesus is said to be the "monos Master", "monos Lord" and "monos Sovereign" (1 Timothy 6:16; Jude 4).

This proves that Jn 17:3 no more excludes Jesus from being "true God" than 1 Timothy 6:16 and Jude 4 exclude the Father from being Master, Lord and Sovereign.

It doesn’t make matters worse for me. All passages of scripture harmonize with Jewish monotheism.

(The official interpretation of 1 Timothy 6:16 the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower is that 1 Timothy 6:16 is speaking solely of Christ.) Click here for a detailed look at this powerful argument in John 17:3.

Anti-Trinitarians who reject the fact that "echad" means a unified one between individuals, should always remember that shortly after the rise of Christianity, the Jews replaced "echad" with "yachid" in Deut 6:4.

The Jews you are speaking about here are unbelieving Jewish monotheists. It is they, not believing Jewish monotheists who make that substitution. As I stated earlier, there is no question that the Hebrew word is echad, not yachid. Yachid occurs 12 times in the Hebrew Bible and in none of those occurrences is it ever used in reference to the Messiah’s God. If I were speaking to an unbelieving Jewish monotheist I would very quickly establish this with him or her.

Obviously these Jews who knew the Hebrew language 2000 years ago, saw something modern Unitarians do not.

See above. If I run across a unitarian who tells me the word is yachid, I won’t hesitate to point out the error to him or her.

It is most devastating to Jews and Anti-Trinitarians that Deut 6:4 uses "echad", the word for a unified one between individuals.

It isn’t devastating to Jews and Anti-Trinitarians if they understand that echad works in Hebrew exactly like it works in all languages.

The same word echad is used to say that God is one and that husband and wife are one. This laid the ground work for the Trinity to be revealed in Christ and his apostles who could look back to the most important Jewish Bible verse and show them Jesus was there too!

Echad always means one, not more than one. The husband and wife are one couple, not more than one couple. There is no plurality in one. The plurality is found in the couple.

Ot’s the same thing with God. He (not they!) is the one God, not the more than one God.

Yahweh is the one (echad) God and Father of Jesus. Yahweh isn’t the more than one God and Father of Jesus.

The simple response of Jewish monotheists to trinitarians should always be Jesus. He is a unitarian, not a trinitarian.
Instead of converting to Christianity, the Jews twisted the word of God and started telling lies about the resurrection of Jesus.

Once again, we’re talking about unbelieving Jewish monotheists, not believing Jewish monotheists.

If ever there was a place YACHID would have been used, this would have been it, but no, the unified one was used.

See above. Yachid is never used in scripture to describe the Messiah’s God.

Today Jews live under a veil of darkness unable to come to the truth …

That’s right, as long as we remember that we are speaking about unbelieving Jewish monotheists, not believing Jewish monotheists.

Jewish monotheism isn’t trinitarianism. When Jewish monotheists didn’t believe Jesus is the Messiah promised by their God they remained unitarians, not trinitarians. When Jewish monotheists did believe Jesus is the Messiah promised by their God they remained unitarians, they didn’t trinitarians. Trinitarianism arose centuries later, just as Church history documents.

The question in the NT for Jews isn’t: Who is God? The question in scripture for the Jews is: Who is the Messiah, Son of God?

OT Proof That Echad Does Not Point to God Being Uni-Personal
The following verse functions as the creed, or confession of faith, which the Israelites were to live by:

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one (echad) Lord:” Deuteronomy 6:4

This is precisely what the Hebrew says. Jesus himself quotes it that way in Mark 12:29.

Oftentimes, anti-Trinitarians will cite this text as proof that God is a singular Person, not just a singular Being, in order to show that Trinitarianism is incompatible with the biblical revelation, particularly with the [O]ld [T]estament’s proclamation of Jehovah being one eternal divine Person.

The Shema is the creed of Judaism. It is Jesus’ own creed. The Lord who is one Lord is the Messiah’s God and Father, Yahweh.

The Shema is a unitarian creed. The Lord our God who is one Lord is one person, not two persons, nor three persons.

In this post I am going to provide evidence to the contrary, citing examples to prove that, instead of refuting the fact of God’s eternally existing as a multi-Personal Being, echad actually supports this divinely revealed truth.

Notice carefully what the following passages teach … Job 31:15

Job is speaking about the one God. The one God is Job’s God. The one God is also the Messiah’s God. It is the Father who made them both in the womb. The Messiah didn’t make Job in the womb, nor did the Messiah make himself in the womb.

Isaiah 44:24

That’s the Messiah’s God. Compare this with the opening of the Apostles’ Creed and even the Nicene Creed. The Father did it, alone, by himself. That’s quintessential Jewish monotheism. Some unitarians believe it but the majority of unitarians don’t. That’s something that distinguishes me from other unitarians.

These inspired texts affirm that the same one God made and fashioned the entire creation all by himself. The passage from Job even uses the very term echad to emphasize this fact.

Agreed.

Herein lies the problem for the unitarian. These same sacred writings emphatically testify that the one eternal Creator and Sustainer of all things is multi-Personal. Note, for instance, the following texts … Job 35:10

‘Osay is the masculine singular plural participle form of asah, and literally means “my Makers.”

There are words in Hebrew which are plural in form but singular in meaning. If you are committed to this idea then those you use it with must insist that you translate it plural in English. When you do, it becomes obvious to all that hour argument doesn’t work -> “Where is Gods my makers …” Own it or don’t use it.

Ecclesiastes 12:1

Bor’eka is the masculine singular plural participle form of barah, and literally says “thy Creators.”

Same thing. In scripture there is only one creator. He (singular) did it alone, by himself. (See above.)

“Remember now thy creators ...” You have creators. Own it or don’t use it. Jewish monotheism has the creator. I use it. I own it.

Isaiah 54:5

‘Osayik is the plural participle form of asah, and Bo’alayik is the plural participle form of baal. The text literally reads, “For thy Makers are thine Husbands.”

Same thing. You believe in more than one creator and call them husbands. “The Gods (elohim, plural) of the whole earth shall be called.”

We, thus, have the Hebrew Bible explicitly bearing witness to the fact that the Creator and Sustainer of all things is a multi-Personal Being, a point affirmed in the next set of passages:

See above. The creator and sustainer of all things prior to the begetting of Jesus is Yahweh. I will agree, however, that Jesus, the beginning of the new creation, does have a role with Yahweh in creating the new creation.

“By HIS SPIRIT (Rucho) he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.” Job 26:13

“The Spirit (Ruach) of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4 Job 33:4

Here we have God’s Spirit fashioning the heavens and making mankind.

Yes. Yahweh’s Spirit is Father’s Spirit. It is the operational presence and power of the Father. Compare what is said about the Spirit hovering over the water with the Spirit overshadowing the virgin.
 
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Matthias

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@Johann I’m sorry about the light editing that I did to your post. Your post was too large; it contained too many characters. When I replied to it the system wouldn’t let me post due to there being too many characters. I also deleted a few of my responses in order to reduce the total number of characters. Nothing that I carefully edited in your post changed the meaning of your comments. If you think otherwise, you can repost only those sections. It won’t change my response.
 
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Matthias

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@Johann I asked you a question in post #81 that you didn’t answer in post #85.

The question: “If I asked you to hold up echad finger, would you hold up one finger or more than one finger?”

You don’t have to answer it if you don’t want to. This isn’t the Spanish Inquisition.

If you had asked me the question, I would have answered it: One, not more than one.
 

CadyandZoe

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“to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.”

(Jude 1:25, NASB)

Who is “the only God our Savior” in this verse?

Is it not one person, the Father, who Jude has in mind here?

Is it not Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus Messiah, who saves us through the Messiah our lord (Psalm 110:1)?
Consistent with the idea that Jesus is God's image, Jude means to say that God the Father is the savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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J

Johann

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@Johann I’m sorry about the light editing that I did to your post. Your post was too large; it contained too many characters. When I replied to it the system wouldn’t let me post due to there being too many characters. I also deleted a few of my responses in order to reduce the total number of characters. Nothing that I carefully edited in your post changed the meaning of your comments. If you think otherwise, you can repost only those sections. It won’t change my response.
II. God Is At Least Two

Elohim And YHVH Applied To Two Personalities
As if to even make the case for plurality stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:7-8:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God’s God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.

A second example is Hosea 1:7:

“Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”

The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24which reads:

“Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.”

Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.


A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:

For thus says the LORD of Hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he that touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”

Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.


The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton3 and wrote:

“Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.”4



III. God Is Three
How Many Persons Are There?
If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities in the Godhead exist? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures, we find that, in fact, three and only three distinct personalities are ever considered divine.

1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where He is found He is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH Himself. For instance, in Genesis 16:7 He is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH Himself. In Genesis 22:11 He is the Angel of YHVH, but God Himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given.5 A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God’s own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God’s own name is in this angel shows His divine status.

3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to as simply the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2, 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; Psalm 139:7; Isaiah 11:2, etc. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because He contains all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.

So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.

The Three Personalities In The Same Passage
Nor have the Hebrew Scriptures neglected to put all three personalities of the Godhead together in one passage. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

“Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD has loved him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent me.”

It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse 7, the Angel of YHVH in verse 9 and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to Himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel’s redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet, no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

Conclusion
The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then, is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.

If the concept of the Tri-unity in the Godhead is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when he said:

“Behold, I send an Angel before you, to keep you in the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off.”
—Exodus 23:20-23

New Testament Light
In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: “…What is His name, and what is his Son’s name, if you know?” His son’s name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel. Furthermore, He is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.

The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament he is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Old and New Testaments relating to the Tri-unity of God.




So far, neither you nor @APAK has presented a compelling case against what we believe concerning the Triune Godhead.

J.
 

Matthias

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II. God Is At Least Two

Elohim And YHVH Applied To Two Personalities
As if to even make the case for plurality stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:7-8:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God’s God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.

A second example is Hosea 1:7:

“Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”

The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24which reads:

“Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.”

Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.


A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:

For thus says the LORD of Hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he that touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”

Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.


The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton3 and wrote:

“Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.”4



III. God Is Three
How Many Persons Are There?
If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities in the Godhead exist? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures, we find that, in fact, three and only three distinct personalities are ever considered divine.

1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where He is found He is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH Himself. For instance, in Genesis 16:7 He is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH Himself. In Genesis 22:11 He is the Angel of YHVH, but God Himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given.5 A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God’s own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God’s own name is in this angel shows His divine status.

3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to as simply the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2, 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; Psalm 139:7; Isaiah 11:2, etc. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because He contains all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.

So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.

The Three Personalities In The Same Passage
Nor have the Hebrew Scriptures neglected to put all three personalities of the Godhead together in one passage. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

“Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD has loved him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent me.”

It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse 7, the Angel of YHVH in verse 9 and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to Himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel’s redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet, no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

Conclusion
The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then, is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.

If the concept of the Tri-unity in the Godhead is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when he said:

“Behold, I send an Angel before you, to keep you in the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off.”
—Exodus 23:20-23

New Testament Light
In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: “…What is His name, and what is his Son’s name, if you know?” His son’s name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel. Furthermore, He is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.

The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament he is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Old and New Testaments relating to the Tri-unity of God.




So far, neither you nor @APAK has presented a compelling case against what we believe concerning the Triune Godhead.

J.

I’m not going to go through it again. This post of yours is as massive as the last one. I spent 45 minutes responding to it when it shouldn’t have taken more than 10 minutes.

If you want a response from me you’re going to have to reduce the number of characters in your posts.
 
J

Johann

Guest
II. God Is At Least Two

Elohim And YHVH Applied To Two Personalities
As if to even make the case for plurality stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is Psalm 45:7-8:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God’s God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.

A second example is Hosea 1:7:

“Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.”

The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is Genesis 19:24which reads:

“Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.”

Clearly we have YHVH number one raining fire and brimstone from a second YHVH who is in heaven, the first one being on earth.


A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:

For thus says the LORD of Hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he that touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”

Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.


The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton3 and wrote:

“Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.”4



III. God Is Three
How Many Persons Are There?
If the Hebrew Scriptures truly do point to plurality, the question arises, how many personalities in the Godhead exist? We have already seen the names of God applied to at least two different personalities. Going through the Hebrew Scriptures, we find that, in fact, three and only three distinct personalities are ever considered divine.

1. First, there are the numerous times when there is a reference to the Lord YHVH. This usage is so frequent that there is no need to devote space to it.

2. A second personality is referred to as the Angel of YHVH. This individual is always considered distinct from all other angels and is unique. In almost every passage where He is found He is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH Himself. For instance, in Genesis 16:7 He is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13 as YHVH Himself. In Genesis 22:11 He is the Angel of YHVH, but God Himself in 22:12. Other examples could be given.5 A very interesting passage is Exodus 23:20-23 where this angel has the power to pardon sin because God’s own name YHVH is in him, and, therefore, he is to be obeyed without question. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God’s own name is in this angel shows His divine status.

3. A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to as simply the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God among which are Genesis 1:2, 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; Psalm 139:7; Isaiah 11:2, etc. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because He contains all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion and will) and is considered divine.

So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures there is a clear showing that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the Lord YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Spirit of God.

The Three Personalities In The Same Passage
Nor have the Hebrew Scriptures neglected to put all three personalities of the Godhead together in one passage. Two examples are Isaiah 48:12-16 and 63:7-14.

Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:

“Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD has loved him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent me.”

It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.

In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse 7, the Angel of YHVH in verse 9 and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to Himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel’s redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet, no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.

Conclusion
The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then, is that there is a plurality of the Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.

If the concept of the Tri-unity in the Godhead is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when he said:

“Behold, I send an Angel before you, to keep you in the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off.”
—Exodus 23:20-23

New Testament Light
In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: “…What is His name, and what is his Son’s name, if you know?” His son’s name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel. Furthermore, He is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.

The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament he is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Old and New Testaments relating to the Tri-unity of God.




So far, neither you nor @APAK has presented a compelling case against what we believe concerning the Triune Godhead.

J.
rabbinic-judaism-and-the-plurality-of-god/#:~:text=Contact-,Rabbinic%20Judaism%20and%20the%20Plurality%20of%C2%A0God,-In%20this%20short
 

Matthias

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The Messiah’s God is only one person. My God is only one person. Our God is the same one person.

Trinitarianism offers us something that the Messiah himself doesn’t.
 
J

Johann

Guest
I’m not going to go through it again. This post of yours is as massive as the last one. I spent 45 minutes responding to it when it shouldn’t have taken more than 10 minutes.

If you want a response from me you’re going to have to reduce the number of characters in your posts.
I am full of zest, zeal and pathos for our Lord Christ Jesus and never tired to let the readers know what has been concealed to them from the Jewish side-you and me are just going through circular reasoning-mine is biblical, yours circular as a rabbi can give 350 different interpretations on a parashat-simply amazing!

Do you have links from rabbinical sources re this topic?

J.
 

Matthias

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I am full of zest, zeal and pathos for our Lord Christ Jesus and never tired to let the readers know what has been concealed to them from the Jewish side-you and me are just going through circular reasoning-mine is biblical, yours circular …

Mine is Rabbi Jesus.

… as a rabbi can give 350 different interpretations on a parashat-simply amazing!

Do you have links from rabbinical sources re this topic?

J.

Yes.
 

Matthias

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I was giving a lecture one day at a trinitarian college in Kenya. During the lecture a student commented that Jewish monotheists are small in number compared to trinitarians. He was right.

I’ve recently encountered on the forum the trinitarian argument that trinitarianism must be right because it is the majority belief in Christianity. That’s a “safety in numbers“ argument which runs counter to the way Yahweh operates. It’s not a good argument but it is, nevertheless, a helpful one. I’ve addressed the first way it is helpful to Jewish monotheists. The second way it helps Jewish monotheists is that it acknowledges that trinitarianism isn’t the only belief in the history Christianity. The primitive Christians were Jewish monotheists.

Jewish monotheists are much smaller in number than trinitarians in the history of Christianity. Our place is secure no matter the arguments trinitarians offer for our consideration.

Jewish monotheism. I have to defend it against a much larger crowd; a crowd which includes the majority of unitarians.
 
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