To the only God our Savior
- Thread starter Matthias
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Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of God, was, is, and will always be a Jewish monotheist. His God is only one person, the Father. That will never change or cease being true. We all know that a person whose God is only one person is a unitarian.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You and i both agree that we do not like our words twisted.
You just added your own words to the Lord's and HE will require it of you - not the place to be my friend @Matthias
Here is your proof text of MANY that has been given to you:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that The Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21But he who does the truth comes to The Light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Every passage of scripture is consistent with the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism.
If I could prove from the scriptures that echad is numerically 1, would the trinitarians become persuaded?
While I wait for a trinitarian response, I’m reminded of Justin Martyr. Trinitarians are fond of claiming him as one of their own.
This is the apologist who says in his writings that God is not numerically one. Would we conclude from his statement that Justin Martyr is a Jewish monotheist? We shouldn’t. He isn’t.
No, Justin Martyr said God is numerically two, and that they are not co-equal. Would we conclude from his statement that Justin Martyr is a trinitarian? We shouldn’t. He isn’t. But trinitarians commonly do.
While I wait for a trinitarian response, I’m reminded of Justin Martyr. Trinitarians are fond of claiming him as one of their own.
This is the apologist who says in his writings that God is not numerically one. Would we conclude from his statement that Justin Martyr is a Jewish monotheist? We shouldn’t. He isn’t.
No, Justin Martyr said God is numerically two, and that they are not co-equal. Would we conclude from his statement that Justin Martyr is a trinitarian? We shouldn’t. He isn’t. But trinitarians commonly do.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
If it were true, the monotheistic Jews would not of killed the only begotten SON of God
Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is [o]your God. 55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going[p] through the midst of them, and so passed by.
I can see that too .
If you find yourself before The Son would you worship him ?
Would it be the same worship as you would afford The Father ?
It is true and monotheistic Jews didn’t kill the only begotten Son of ... Who is God?
The pagan Romans killed Jesus, at the request amd insistence of unbelieving Jewish monotheists; not at the request of believing Jewish monotheists.
Jesus the Jewish monotheist conversing with Jewish monotheists who did not believe he is the Messiah.
I would handle that circumstance as it was handled in 1 Chronicles 29:20; David being a type of the Son.
David and the Father (Yahweh) were both worshipped, and no one confused David with Yahweh.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Montheistic Jews, back then and today with monotheistic jw's, would never submit and bow their knee and heart
unto Yahweh YAHshua HaMAshiach
Only One Lord/Yahweh and One Elohim/ABBA and One Ruach HaKodesh
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.
Psalm 110:1 ensures in my mind the correctness of your assertion.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Gotta go - thank you for the pleasant interaction on your Thread
Yes. The Messiah’s God, Yahweh (the deity title, Adonai, is used here rather than the tetragrammaton, God’s personal name) is at the Messiah’s right hand, as well as at the right hand of others. The Messiah is backed by Yahweh. When the unbelieving Jews asked Jesus where he got his authority from the answer is from the one whom they said was their God. Yahweh was with Jesus, not with his Jewish monotheist enemies.
Psalm 110:1 makes a clear distinction between Yahweh and “my lord”, the Messiah.
Well , I did not make it clear in my post . If you were before The Son and The Father individually , both not present at the same time .
Now I am left wondering if you or any of us would be able to see a perceive a difference between The Son and The Father if we are presented with only One of Them .
You are playing games here-word salads.
The Hebrew word yachid (יָחִיד), meaning "only" or "solitary," could have been used if absolute singularity were the intended meaning. However, yachid is not used in the Shema or in other descriptions of God’s nature, suggesting that echad was chosen to convey a broader, more inclusive sense of unity.
Theological Implications:
While echad in isolation does not prove a Trinitarian understanding, its usage does not preclude a composite unity.
In fact, the consistent application of echad in contexts of collective or relational unity provides a foundation for the Christian interpretation of the term as inclusive of a complex unity within the Godhead.
Your assertion that echad carries no implication of plurality is linguistically inaccurate.
Its usage in biblical Hebrew demonstrates that it can describe both singularity and unified plurality, depending on the context. While echad does not inherently teach the doctrine of the Trinity, its application within the Hebrew Scriptures is compatible with the concept of a complex unity, as understood in Christian theology.
Dr. Michael Brown, a Messianic Jewish scholar, explains that the Hebrew word echad (אֶחָד) translates to "one," similar to the English word. He notes that while echad can denote a singular entity, it is also used in contexts implying a composite unity.
For instance, in Genesis 2:24, a man and woman become "one flesh" (basar echad), indicating a unified entity composed of two individuals. Dr. Brown contrasts echad with yachid (יָחִיד), which signifies an absolute singularity or "only one." He argues that if the Hebrew Scriptures intended to portray God as an absolute singularity, yachid would have been used instead of echad.
ANSWERING ISLAM
This distinction suggests that the use of echad in passages like Deuteronomy 6:4 ("Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one") does not exclude the possibility of a complex unity within the nature of God. Dr. Brown emphasizes that while echad means "one," it does not inherently imply absolute singularity, allowing for interpretations of divine complexity.
ANSWERING ISLAM
J.
It isn’t the Trinity, and it isn’t the Son. Unless we are willing to say that the Holy Spirit is a third person who is God, that leaves only one person, the Father.
Would the trinitarians dare say that it is the Holy Spirit? I don’t think so, even at this level of conversation. I’ve never had one say it yet, but that doesn’t mean that I never will.
I see. It wouldn’t alter the way I would handle it. Together or apart, I would worship both. The only one whom I would worship as God would be the Father.
Now I am left wondering if you or any of us would be able to see a perceive a difference between The Son and The Father if we are presented with only One of Them .
That’s an interesting thought. When we see and hear the Son, we see and hear the Father in him.
If we were to ask the person we were presented with if he is the Father, I would expect the person to say yes, if the person is the Father, or no, if the person isn’t the Father.
Tempting....the HS is the unsung hero of the Father himself, and sometimes the bane for Trinitarians
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