To the only God our Savior

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J

Johann

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Your post was so large that the system wouldn’t allow me to reply to it without truncating it.

Yahweh is the Messiah’s God. Yahweh is the Messiah’s Father. There is no God besides Yahweh.

I like you, and I’ve tried to help you, but it‘s the trinitarians who have made your theology a salvation issue. It is the trinitarians who threw Jewish monotheists out of the church.
The Trinity-or Triune Godhead is biblical and likewise, I like you.


Col_2:9 For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].

Col_2:10 And you N1are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].

Heb_1:9 You have loved righteousness [You have delighted in integrity, virtue, and uprightness in purpose, thought, and action] and You have hated lawlessness (injustice and iniquity). Therefore God, [even] Your God (N1Godhead), has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy and gladness above and beyond Your companions. [Psa_45:6-7]
AMPC


Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while

2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.

3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.

Shalom

J.
 

Matthias

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Trinitarians must always be reminded that trinitarianism destroyed the Jewish dogma.
 

Matthias

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The Trinity-or Triune Godhead is biblical and likewise, I like you.


Col_2:9 For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].

Col_2:10 And you N1are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].

Heb_1:9 You have loved righteousness [You have delighted in integrity, virtue, and uprightness in purpose, thought, and action] and You have hated lawlessness (injustice and iniquity). Therefore God, [even] Your God (N1Godhead), has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy and gladness above and beyond Your companions. [Psa_45:6-7]
AMPC


Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while

2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.

3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.

Shalom

J.

The Trinity isn’t the Messiah’s God; Yahweh is.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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“to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.”

(Jude 1:25, NASB)

Who is “the only God our Savior” in this verse?

Is it not one person, the Father, who Jude has in mind here?

Is it not Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus Messiah, who saves us through the Messiah our lord (Psalm 110:1)?
 
J

Johann

Guest
The Trinity isn’t the Messiah’s God; Yahweh is.
That is why I personally don't like the term "Trinity" but Triune Godhead-which IS biblical and my Bible is as Jewish as yours.


One of the most serious disagreements which Jews have with Christian theology concerns the doctrine of the Trinity. “The Tanakh,” it is claimed, “knows nothing of the Trinity.” The Trinity was invented by the early church and was completely unknown in Judaism, so some would assert. However, these are far from true, and in the following, I endeavor to demonstrate that the Hebrew Scriptures affirm the uniplurality of God in a way which prefigures the three-in-one Godhead revealed more fully in HaBrit HaChadassah.

Before embarking on this examination, a brief overview of exactly what is the Trinity is in order. This is necessary because so many out there (especially those who attack the Trinity) do not seem to have the slightest idea of what Christianity really is teaching on this matter. Let us begin what the Trinity is not. Simply put, the Trinity is not “three gods” (tritheism), as some forms of unitarianism (including Islam) teach. My experience has been that those who make the “three gods” claim, especially if they are Muslim, generally do so out of purposeful ignorance, because they are not willing to actually investigate or receive any insight into what Christians are really saying. The Trinity also is not “one God successively appearing as three different modes,” as is taught by modern day modalists such as the Oneness or “Jesus Only” Pentecostals. Modalism, as a general system, teaches that God is one person which reveals Himself at different times as different manifestations, but would reject that God reveals Himself as three separate and distinct manifestations at the same time. Errors such as these abound, though, because the Trinity is a difficult concept to grasp. For this reason, heresies concerning the Trinity were some of the most numerous and persistent in all the early church period.

In contravention to these, the Trinity is a uniplural monotheistic conception of God. It is monotheistic in that New Testament Christianity quite clearly teaches and affirms the sole existence of God as deity (Romans 3:29-30, Galatians 3:20, I Timothy 2:5). At the same time, the New Testament is quite explicit in teaching the deity of the Father (John 17:1-3, I Peter 1:2, etc.), the Son (John 1:1-3, Titus 2:13, etc.), and of the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4, II Corinthians 3:17-18, etc.). Are these three taught to be separate Gods, and should they be taken as such? Absolutely not. The Trinity, as taught in Scripture and as affirmed by Christianity since its earliest days, consists of three distinct personalities of God which are united in essence and being (Matthew 28:19, II Corinthians 13:14). The three Persons of the Godhead are distinct in function and action, but yet, they share a common essential nature and existence. Thus, while the Father is not the Son is not the Spirit, being distinct personalities of the Godhead, they yet share the common essence of God but are not understood by Christians to be three separate Gods (which would imply heterogeneous essences).

It is for this reason that all three persons of the Godhead can appear together as distinct beings, as in Matthew 3:16-17, a succinct Scriptural refutation of modalism such as taught by the Oneness Pentecostals and other Sabellians. Yet, it can also be said of them, “these three are one” (I John 5:7), as was done by Tertullian and Cyprian so long ago. No picture can be drawn which would completely illustrate this concept, but some can come close. Imagine, if you will, a great river. Our river flows along its course until it reaches a certain point where we cut two additional channels, and the water now flows into all three. One channel leads to a hydroelectric dam, where the water cascades and electricity is generated. The second channel flows into a depression creating a lake where we can fish, swim, and otherwise recreate ourselves. The third channel is used to float logs to a downstream sawmill. After these three channels find their use, they are directed back together, uniting, and continuing on downstream. Though each of these three channels is put to a different use (distinct personality, if you will), they all retain the same essence of being water from this particular river(having the same proportion of dissolved chemicals, oxygen content, etc.) The water in any one channel is the same as that in the other two (but not necessarily the very same as water from some other river in some other channel). They share the same nature and reality, though they each find differing uses, follow differing paths, etc. This is a crude picture of the Godhead, with three personalities of God sharing the same being and essence, yet God manifesting Himself in three distinct ways to interact with mankind according to His purposes.

The point to this article is not to expound upon the New Testament teaching of the Trinity, per se, and as such, I shall refrain from entering too deeply on this subject. However, from the above, it should be easily seen that Christians do not teach either tritheism or modalism. Now, if non-Christians wish to misinterpret what Christians teach on this subject, there is nothing but the threat of cognitive dissonance stopping them. However, the anti-trinitarian of whatever persuasion cannot rightly claim that Christianity has, does, or should teach anything other than the trinitarian uniplurality with which the churches have been familiar for nearly twenty centuries. The reader who has questions and objections about the Christian teaching of the Trinity should find them more than answered at Glenn Miller’s excellent overview of the Trinity.


Now read the article @Matthias

J.
 

David in NJ

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Elohim is always plural in form and can be either singular or plural in meaning. There is no plurality in Yahweh in Jewish monotheism. He is only one person -> the Messiah’s God and Father.

The Messiah isn’t a trinitarian. His God isn’t plural. His God isn’t three in one. The Messiah is a Jewish monotheist, a strict unitarian.
Blessings of the Day to you @Matthias and you are welcome to come over for Fresh Ground Organic coffee if you are in the area.

There is no plurality in Yahweh in Jewish monotheism.
Thus the MAIN impetus of Crucifying the Lord who came down from the FATHER - Gospel of John

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
The Jews answered Him, saying,
“For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

Is this not the same impetus for un-deifying the Lord from Heaven???

The Messiah isn’t a trinitarian.
On the contrary = without the Elohim/THREE from Genesis, no one could be SAVED.

Here are the THREE Elohim in ONE Breath of God

#1 - “If you love Me/Jesus, keep My commandments.
#2 - And I will pray the Father,
#3 - and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

THREE are ONE Elohim = Genesis = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3

SHALOM in the FATHER the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT
 
J

Johann

Guest
Trinitarians must always be reminded that trinitarianism destroyed the Jewish dogma.
Not so-

Benjamin D. Sommer:

In his book The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel, Sommer explores the fluidity of God's manifestations in the Hebrew Bible. He argues that the idea of God having multiple manifestations-while remaining a single deity-is not foreign to ancient Israelite thought.

Sommer states:
“Some Jews regard Christianity’s claim to be a monotheistic religion as inherently self-contradictory... What I have attempted to show is that biblical Israel knew very similar ideas, and these ideas did not disappear from Judaism after the biblical period.”

Sommer suggests that Christianity's Trinitarian theology could be seen as an extension of themes present in ancient Jewish texts.

Michael Wyschogrod:

Wyschogrod, a modern Jewish theologian, acknowledges that Christian Trinitarianism and Jewish monotheism share common roots, even if Jewish tradition ultimately rejects the Trinity. He writes about the immanence of God in the world, particularly through His covenantal relationship with Israel, which parallels Christian ideas of incarnation and the Holy Spirit.
Daniel Boyarin:

In The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ, Boyarin argues that certain elements of Jewish thought, such as the Son of Man figure in Daniel 7, can be understood as a precursor to Christian claims about Jesus. He states:
“The ideas that became Christianity were not so much borrowed as inherited from Judaism.”

Boyarin points to Jewish apocalyptic literature, which envisions figures like the Son of Man, as evidence of a Jewish foundation for the Christian concept of Jesus as both divine and human.

Elliott Wolfson (Jewish Mysticism):

Wolfson explores the Kabbalistic concept of the Sefirot, which describe ten emanations of God that interact with the world. While not Trinitarian, the Sefirot reflect a belief in a complex unity within God’s nature.

Summary:
Ancient Jewish Sources: Early writings like those of Philo and rabbinic discussions on "two powers in heaven" suggest a nuanced view of God's unity and manifestations.

Recent Scholars: Thinkers like Sommer, Wyschogrod, and Boyarin demonstrate that the concept of a complex divine unity is not alien to Jewish tradition.

They emphasize that certain aspects of Jewish theology may provide a framework for understanding Christian Trinitarian beliefs.
While traditional Judaism rejects the Trinity, these examples show that some ancient and modern Jewish thought offers insights that resonate with Christian theological concepts.

Other way 'round.

J.
 

Matthias

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I don’t mind trinitarians posting in this thread. In fact, I welcome and encourage them to.

There is a vast difference between Jewish monotheism and trinitarianism. The vast gulf between them is best seen when they are placed side by side. I want cor that to happen, but I’m limited in where I can make it happen.

This board, by definition, and most of its trinitarian members - with a few exceptions, do not consider Jewish monotheists to be Christian.

My lord, the Messiah (Jesus), the Son of my God (Yahweh), is a Jewish monotheist. I am a Jewish monotheist too.

I read scripture through the lens of, with the mindset of, Jewish monotheism. I am a disciple of my lord

“A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.”

(Luke 6:40, NET)

My lord (Psalm 110:1), my teacher, is aJewish monotheist. His Jewish dogma is my Jewish dogma.

Gregory of Nyssa, one of the greatest figures in the history of trinitarianism, proudly and confidently acknowledges that his dogma - the doctrine of the Trinity - destroyed the dogma of my teacher.

Trinitarians have Gregory of Nyssa, among others, as their teacher. I don’t, though I’ve paid close attention to what your teachers are teaching you.
 

Matthias

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Blessings of the Day to you @Matthias and you are welcome to come over for Fresh Ground Organic coffee if you are in the area.

Thank you.

Thus the MAIN impetus of Crucifying the Lord who came down from the FATHER - Gospel of John

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
The Jews answered Him, saying,
“For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

Is this not the same impetus for un-deifying the Lord from Heaven???

Jesus is a man. He was begotten by Yahweh in the womb of his mother, a virgin. Jesus didn’t make himself God. The accusation of the unbelieving Jews is false.

Just as Yahweh made Moses God to Pharaoh, so Yahweh made Jesus God to mankind. That is why trinitarian scholars speak about Jesus as “the new Moses.”

On the contrary = without the Elohim/THREE from Genesis, no one could be SAVED.

That’s incompatible with Jewish monotheism.

Here are the THREE Elohim in ONE Breath of God

#1 - “If you love Me/Jesus, keep My commandments.
#2
- And I will pray the Father,
#3
- and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus refers to himself as the other helper, the comforter. He comes to his followers in spirit.

As a Jewish monotheist I don’t see the Trinity in this grouping. What I see are two persons - Yahweh and Jesus - and the spirit of of truth.

THREE are ONE Elohim = Genesis = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3

I agree with, and have quoted, trinitarian scholars - both Catholic and Protestant - who don’t agree with what you see in Genesis. As a Jewish monotheist, the only God I see in Genesis is Yahweh (the God and Father of my lord) speaking with his angelic council.

SHALOM in the FATHER the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT

Shalom in the name of my lord Jesus Messiah.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Nope-
Jewish recognition of a TrinitySF
BySeth Fitzgerald

General Topics
As an introduction to this paper, let me be very clear. I am by no means an Orthodox Jew, nor do I partake in any sect of Rabbinic Judaism, though I am Jewish. I am a Christian (not a Catholic). But before you read this and are immediately put off by this fact, allow me to take the opportunity to at the very least, show you my thoughts and findings.

It is a common belief among religious Jews alike that the doctrine of the Trinity is merely a Christian invention, and before the rise of Christianity, early Jews never thought of or even considered the idea of a multi-personal G-d, and only thought of G-d as being a completely unified single figure (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Christians either made up the Trinity to explain how Jesus revealed himself, or they stole it from the pagans. This, however, is simply untrue.

And if one took the time to carefully study early Jewish writings you'll find that indeed many Jewish authors struggled with the idea of three powers in the Tanakh who all seemed to be G-d. I will publish more papers exclusively elaborating on the presence of the Trinity in the Tanakh alone, but I'll continue.


דברים ו׳:ד׳
(ד) שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽד׃
Deuteronomy 6:4

(4) Hear, O Israel! יהוה is our God, יהוה alone.

Many ancient Jews and Jewish scholars today recognize the fact that there seemed to be multiple powers in heaven. Jewish Scholar and Theologian Dr. Benjamin D. Sommer has stated in a lecture series on one of his published works The Bodies of God And the World of Ancient Israel that the concept of the Trinity isn't at all foreign to the Near East or in Judaism. In that lecture, he states:

"I'm actually rather uncomfortable with my own conclusion here, but as a Scholar, I got to call 'em as I see 'em..."
he goes on to say,
"...one of the conclusions that I came to, to my shock when I finished this book is that we Jews have no theological objection to the doctrine of the Trinity."

He goes on to explain that Kabbalistic texts, specifically Sefer HaBahir explains that the same concept appears in Jewish literature and mysticism. Even in a published paper by Hadar Cohen, simply titled Sefirot which in actuality is a quotation of the works by Rabbi David Seidenberg. He took the time to explain what they actually are, "God emanates ten vessels through which the world is created, called sefirot, which are both parts of God and created by God." Clearly, this concept functions in a monotheistic context, although there are slight differences between the two teachings.

ספר הבהיר קכ״ה
(קכה) ואמאי קרי ליה ספירות, משום דכתיב (תהלים י"ט ב) השמים מספרים כבוד אל:

Sefer HaBahir 125
What are the Sefirot?
The Sefirot – God emanates ten vessels through which the world is created, called sefirot, which are both part of God and created by God. These vessels are channels of light or water, and they also are light. They are God and of God, but they cannot define God or limit God – what is truly God is wholly beyond these descriptions, beyond the first sefirah, called Keter or crown, denoted by the term Ein Sof – without limit, without end.
_______
So as Dr. Benjamin D. Sommer points out, there are plenty of clear passages in the Tanakh where we see different "persons" or "powers" of G-d who are all distinct, yet still one G-d.

Early Jews wrote about this nature of G-d because they recognized it throughout the texts. To be fair, not all of them interpreted (or will interpret) these passages the same way a traditional Christian Trinitarian would.

But the point is that they do recognize the existence of other powers alongside G-d and multiple powers who are all called G-d (by the Divine Name). This is written about in the Talmud: Sanhedrin 38b:19. The passage describes a debate between a "heretic" and Rav Idit regarding Exodus 24:1. The "heretic" argued that it is odd that G-d said "Come up to YHWH" instead of "Come up to me." Now the Rabbi in response could have simply said that G-d's usage of the third person is not unusual. But the Rabbi instead replies that G-d was actually speaking of a different "power." namely the Metatron, the highest of all angels (keep in mind the word "angel" simply means messenger, and does not by default imply a created being (see Genesis 32:3). The early Rabbis recognized that the Torah taught there were different figures called G-d (by the Divine Name). Then eight verses later in that same chapter in Exodus, the text makes it clear that they were in fact going up to G-d.
סנהדרין ל״ח ב:י״ט
אמר רב נחמן האי מאן דידע לאהדורי למינים כרב אידית ליהדר ואי לא לא ליהדר אמר ההוא מינא לרב אידית כתיב (שמות כד, א) ואל משה אמר עלה אל ה' עלה אלי מיבעי ליה א"ל זהו מטטרון ששמו כשם רבו דכתיב (שמות כג, כא) כי שמי בקרבו
Sanhedrin 38b:19
Rav Naḥman says: This one, i.e., any person, who knows how to respond to the heretics as effectively as Rav Idit should respond to them, but if he does not know, he should not respond to them. The Gemara relates: A certain heretic said to Rav Idit: It is written in the verse concerning God: “And to Moses He said: Come up to the Lord” (Exodus 24:1). The heretic raised a question: It should have stated: Come up to Me. Rav Idit said to him: This term, “the Lord,” in that verse is referring to the angel Metatron, whose name is like the name of his Master, as it is written: “Behold I send an angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Take heed of him and obey his voice; do not defy him; for he will not pardon your transgression, for My name is in him” (Exodus 23:20–21).
שמות כ״ד:א׳
(א) וְאֶל־מֹשֶׁ֨ה אָמַ֜ר עֲלֵ֣ה אֶל־יהוה אַתָּה֙ וְאַהֲרֹן֙ נָדָ֣ב וַאֲבִיה֔וּא וְשִׁבְעִ֖ים מִזִּקְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וְהִשְׁתַּחֲוִיתֶ֖ם מֵרָחֹֽק׃
Exodus 24:1
(1) Then [God] said to Moses, “Come up to יהוה, with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel, and bow low from afar.
שמות כ״ד:ט׳-י״ב
(ט) וַיַּ֥עַל מֹשֶׁ֖ה וְאַהֲרֹ֑ן נָדָב֙ וַאֲבִיה֔וּא וְשִׁבְעִ֖ים מִזִּקְנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃ (י) וַיִּרְא֕וּ אֵ֖ת אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וְתַ֣חַת רַגְלָ֗יו כְּמַעֲשֵׂה֙ לִבְנַ֣ת הַסַּפִּ֔יר וּכְעֶ֥צֶם הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם לָטֹֽהַר׃ (יא) וְאֶל־אֲצִילֵי֙ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א שָׁלַ֖ח יָד֑וֹ וַֽיֶּחֱזוּ֙ אֶת־הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים וַיֹּאכְל֖וּ וַיִּשְׁתּֽוּ׃ {ס} (יב) וַיֹּ֨אמֶר יהוה אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֗ה עֲלֵ֥ה אֵלַ֛י הָהָ֖רָה וֶהְיֵה־שָׁ֑ם וְאֶתְּנָ֨ה לְךָ֜ אֶת־לֻחֹ֣ת הָאֶ֗בֶן וְהַתּוֹרָה֙ וְהַמִּצְוָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר כָּתַ֖בְתִּי לְהוֹרֹתָֽם׃
Exodus 24:9-12
(9) Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel ascended; (10) and they saw the God of Israel—under whose feet was the likeness of a pavement of sapphire, like the very sky for purity. (11) Yet [God] did not raise a hand against the leaders of the Israelites; they beheld God, and they ate and drank. (12) יהוה said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and wait there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the teachings and commandments which I have inscribed to instruct them.”

On top of this, other than the alleged Metatron. Early Jews also knew and recognized the existence of someone known as the "Holy Spirit" interceding between G-d and Israel. Dr. Michael L. Brown (another Jewish Scholar and Theologian) says:
"Lamentations Rabbah 3:60, 9 relates after the Roman emperor Hadrian indiscriminately executed two Jews, the Holy Spirit kept crying out, "You have seen, O LORD, the wrong done to me. Uphold my cause! You have seen the depth of their vengeance, all their plots against me" (Lamentations 3:59-60). This provides an example of the Spirit making intercession. According to Leviticus Rabbah 6:1, the Holy Spirit is a defense counsel who speaks to Israel on behalf of the Lord and then speaks to the Lord on behalf of Israel. In all these citations, which can be easily multiplied (see, e.g., Genesis Rabbah 84:11; Song of Songs Rabbah 8:16; Lamentations Rabbah 1:48), there can be no question that we are dealing with a "who" and not just with a "what," with a personal dimension of God and not just with an impersonal power, with God himself and yet with a "separate" entity who can mediate between God and man. And these citations closely parallel some of the New Testament descriptions of the Holy Spirit, although virtually all the Rabbinic texts cited were written many years later."

Early and modern Jewish scholars have wrestled with the fact that the scriptures teach that there is only one G-d. But there are three distinct figures who all seem to be G-d. Thus we can see that the doctrine of the Trinity came out of the Jewish scriptures, it was not an idea stolen from pagans or made up by Christians, but revealed from what Jesus taught of himself and what the Jewish scriptures had already established.


We all wrestle-but Christians did not "invent" the Triune Godhead.

Shalom

J.
 

Matthias

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Not so-

Benjamin D. Sommer:

In his book The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel, Sommer explores the fluidity of God's manifestations in the Hebrew Bible. He argues that the idea of God having multiple manifestations-while remaining a single deity-is not foreign to ancient Israelite thought.

Sommer states:
“Some Jews regard Christianity’s claim to be a monotheistic religion as inherently self-contradictory... What I have attempted to show is that biblical Israel knew very similar ideas, and these ideas did not disappear from Judaism after the biblical period.”

Sommer suggests that Christianity's Trinitarian theology could be seen as an extension of themes present in ancient Jewish texts.

Michael Wyschogrod:

Wyschogrod, a modern Jewish theologian, acknowledges that Christian Trinitarianism and Jewish monotheism share common roots, even if Jewish tradition ultimately rejects the Trinity. He writes about the immanence of God in the world, particularly through His covenantal relationship with Israel, which parallels Christian ideas of incarnation and the Holy Spirit.
Daniel Boyarin:

In The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ, Boyarin argues that certain elements of Jewish thought, such as the Son of Man figure in Daniel 7, can be understood as a precursor to Christian claims about Jesus. He states:
“The ideas that became Christianity were not so much borrowed as inherited from Judaism.”

Boyarin points to Jewish apocalyptic literature, which envisions figures like the Son of Man, as evidence of a Jewish foundation for the Christian concept of Jesus as both divine and human.

Elliott Wolfson (Jewish Mysticism):

Wolfson explores the Kabbalistic concept of the Sefirot, which describe ten emanations of God that interact with the world. While not Trinitarian, the Sefirot reflect a belief in a complex unity within God’s nature.

Summary:
Ancient Jewish Sources: Early writings like those of Philo and rabbinic discussions on "two powers in heaven" suggest a nuanced view of God's unity and manifestations.

Recent Scholars: Thinkers like Sommer, Wyschogrod, and Boyarin demonstrate that the concept of a complex divine unity is not alien to Jewish tradition.

They emphasize that certain aspects of Jewish theology may provide a framework for understanding Christian Trinitarian beliefs.
While traditional Judaism rejects the Trinity, these examples show that some ancient and modern Jewish thought offers insights that resonate with Christian theological concepts.

Other way 'round.

J.

Trinitarianism is incompatible with Jewish monotheism. You know and have said, rightly, that Jewish Monotheism is unitarian.

Jewish mysticism approaches trinitarianism but falls just short. I reject Jewish mysticism and trinitarians should too.
 

David in NJ

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I don’t mind trinitarians posting in this thread. In fact, I welcome and encourage them to.

There is a vast difference between Jewish monotheism and trinitarianism. The vast gulf between them is best seen when they are placed side by side. I want cor that to happen, but I’m limited in where I can make it happen.

This board, by definition, and most of its trinitarian members - with a few exceptions, do not consider Jewish monotheists to be Christian.

My lord, the Messiah (Jesus), the Son of my God (Yahweh), is a Jewish monotheist. I am a Jewish monotheist too.

I read scripture through the lens of, with the mindset of, Jewish monotheism. I am a disciple of my lord

“A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.”

(Luke 6:40, NET)

My lord (Psalm 110:1), my teacher, is aJewish monotheist. His Jewish dogma is my Jewish dogma.

Gregory of Nyssa, one of the greatest figures in the history of trinitarianism, proudly and confidently acknowledges that his dogma - the doctrine of the Trinity - destroyed the dogma of my teacher.

Trinitarians have Gregory of Nyssa, among others, as their teacher. I don’t, though I’ve paid close attention to what your teachers are teaching you.
I read scripture through the lens of, with the mindset of, Jewish monotheism. I am a disciple of my lord
This what you say of yourself is true

The Jews who walked with the Jewish Messiah full well KNEW the 1st Commandment and OBEYED it to their death.

The True Living God commands us to not have any gods before Him - Deuteronomy 5:7
I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
‘You shall have no other gods before Me

The Apostle John was a Jew who walked with the Lord Jesus Christ did he not @Matthias ???
 

Matthias

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Jewish recognition of a TrinitySF
BySeth Fitzgerald

General Topics
As an introduction to this paper, let me be very clear. I am by no means an Orthodox Jew, nor do I partake in any sect of Rabbinic Judaism, though I am Jewish. I am a Christian (not a Catholic). But before you read this and are immediately put off by this fact, allow me to take the opportunity to at the very least, show you my thoughts and findings.

It is a common belief among religious Jews alike that the doctrine of the Trinity is merely a Christian invention, and before the rise of Christianity, early Jews never thought of or even considered the idea of a multi-personal G-d, and only thought of G-d as being a completely unified single figure (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Christians either made up the Trinity to explain how Jesus revealed himself, or they stole it from the pagans. This, however, is simply untrue.

And if one took the time to carefully study early Jewish writings you'll find that indeed many Jewish authors struggled with the idea of three powers in the Tanakh who all seemed to be G-d. I will publish more papers exclusively elaborating on the presence of the Trinity in the Tanakh alone, but I'll continue.


דברים ו׳:ד׳
(ד) שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽד׃
Deuteronomy 6:4

(4) Hear, O Israel! יהוה is our God, יהוה alone.

Many ancient Jews and Jewish scholars today recognize the fact that there seemed to be multiple powers in heaven. Jewish Scholar and Theologian Dr. Benjamin D. Sommer has stated in a lecture series on one of his published works The Bodies of God And the World of Ancient Israel that the concept of the Trinity isn't at all foreign to the Near East or in Judaism. In that lecture, he states:

"I'm actually rather uncomfortable with my own conclusion here, but as a Scholar, I got to call 'em as I see 'em..."
he goes on to say,
"...one of the conclusions that I came to, to my shock when I finished this book is that we Jews have no theological objection to the doctrine of the Trinity."

He goes on to explain that Kabbalistic texts, specifically Sefer HaBahir explains that the same concept appears in Jewish literature and mysticism. Even in a published paper by Hadar Cohen, simply titled Sefirot which in actuality is a quotation of the works by Rabbi David Seidenberg. He took the time to explain what they actually are, "God emanates ten vessels through which the world is created, called sefirot, which are both parts of God and created by God." Clearly, this concept functions in a monotheistic context, although there are slight differences between the two teachings.

ספר הבהיר קכ״ה
(קכה) ואמאי קרי ליה ספירות, משום דכתיב (תהלים י"ט ב) השמים מספרים כבוד אל:

Sefer HaBahir 125
What are the Sefirot?
The Sefirot – God emanates ten vessels through which the world is created, called sefirot, which are both part of God and created by God. These vessels are channels of light or water, and they also are light. They are God and of God, but they cannot define God or limit God – what is truly God is wholly beyond these descriptions, beyond the first sefirah, called Keter or crown, denoted by the term Ein Sof – without limit, without end.
_______
So as Dr. Benjamin D. Sommer points out, there are plenty of clear passages in the Tanakh where we see different "persons" or "powers" of G-d who are all distinct, yet still one G-d.

Early Jews wrote about this nature of G-d because they recognized it throughout the texts. To be fair, not all of them interpreted (or will interpret) these passages the same way a traditional Christian Trinitarian would.

But the point is that they do recognize the existence of other powers alongside G-d and multiple powers who are all called G-d (by the Divine Name). This is written about in the Talmud: Sanhedrin 38b:19. The passage describes a debate between a "heretic" and Rav Idit regarding Exodus 24:1. The "heretic" argued that it is odd that G-d said "Come up to YHWH" instead of "Come up to me." Now the Rabbi in response could have simply said that G-d's usage of the third person is not unusual. But the Rabbi instead replies that G-d was actually speaking of a different "power." namely the Metatron, the highest of all angels (keep in mind the word "angel" simply means messenger, and does not by default imply a created being (see Genesis 32:3). The early Rabbis recognized that the Torah taught there were different figures called G-d (by the Divine Name). Then eight verses later in that same chapter in Exodus, the text makes it clear that they were in fact going up to G-d.
סנהדרין ל״ח ב:י״ט
אמר רב נחמן האי מאן דידע לאהדורי למינים כרב אידית ליהדר ואי לא לא ליהדר אמר ההוא מינא לרב אידית כתיב (שמות כד, א) ואל משה אמר עלה אל ה' עלה אלי מיבעי ליה א"ל זהו מטטרון ששמו כשם רבו דכתיב (שמות כג, כא) כי שמי בקרבו
Sanhedrin 38b:19
Rav Naḥman says: This one, i.e., any person, who knows how to respond to the heretics as effectively as Rav Idit should respond to them, but if he does not know, he should not respond to them. The Gemara relates: A certain heretic said to Rav Idit: It is written in the verse concerning God: “And to Moses He said: Come up to the Lord” (Exodus 24:1). The heretic raised a question: It should have stated: Come up to Me. Rav Idit said to him: This term, “the Lord,” in that verse is referring to the angel Metatron, whose name is like the name of his Master, as it is written: “Behold I send an angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Take heed of him and obey his voice; do not defy him; for he will not pardon your transgression, for My name is in him” (Exodus 23:20–21).
שמות כ״ד:א׳
(א) וְאֶל־מֹשֶׁ֨ה אָמַ֜ר עֲלֵ֣ה אֶל־יהוה אַתָּה֙ וְאַהֲרֹן֙ נָדָ֣ב וַאֲבִיה֔וּא וְשִׁבְעִ֖ים מִזִּקְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וְהִשְׁתַּחֲוִיתֶ֖ם מֵרָחֹֽק׃
Exodus 24:1
(1) Then [God] said to Moses, “Come up to יהוה, with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel, and bow low from afar.
שמות כ״ד:ט׳-י״ב
(ט) וַיַּ֥עַל מֹשֶׁ֖ה וְאַהֲרֹ֑ן נָדָב֙ וַאֲבִיה֔וּא וְשִׁבְעִ֖ים מִזִּקְנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃ (י) וַיִּרְא֕וּ אֵ֖ת אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וְתַ֣חַת רַגְלָ֗יו כְּמַעֲשֵׂה֙ לִבְנַ֣ת הַסַּפִּ֔יר וּכְעֶ֥צֶם הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם לָטֹֽהַר׃ (יא) וְאֶל־אֲצִילֵי֙ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א שָׁלַ֖ח יָד֑וֹ וַֽיֶּחֱזוּ֙ אֶת־הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים וַיֹּאכְל֖וּ וַיִּשְׁתּֽוּ׃ {ס} (יב) וַיֹּ֨אמֶר יהוה אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֗ה עֲלֵ֥ה אֵלַ֛י הָהָ֖רָה וֶהְיֵה־שָׁ֑ם וְאֶתְּנָ֨ה לְךָ֜ אֶת־לֻחֹ֣ת הָאֶ֗בֶן וְהַתּוֹרָה֙ וְהַמִּצְוָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר כָּתַ֖בְתִּי לְהוֹרֹתָֽם׃
Exodus 24:9-12
(9) Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel ascended; (10) and they saw the God of Israel—under whose feet was the likeness of a pavement of sapphire, like the very sky for purity. (11) Yet [God] did not raise a hand against the leaders of the Israelites; they beheld God, and they ate and drank. (12) יהוה said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and wait there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the teachings and commandments which I have inscribed to instruct them.”

On top of this, other than the alleged Metatron. Early Jews also knew and recognized the existence of someone known as the "Holy Spirit" interceding between G-d and Israel. Dr. Michael L. Brown (another Jewish Scholar and Theologian) says:
"Lamentations Rabbah 3:60, 9 relates after the Roman emperor Hadrian indiscriminately executed two Jews, the Holy Spirit kept crying out, "You have seen, O LORD, the wrong done to me. Uphold my cause! You have seen the depth of their vengeance, all their plots against me" (Lamentations 3:59-60). This provides an example of the Spirit making intercession. According to Leviticus Rabbah 6:1, the Holy Spirit is a defense counsel who speaks to Israel on behalf of the Lord and then speaks to the Lord on behalf of Israel. In all these citations, which can be easily multiplied (see, e.g., Genesis Rabbah 84:11; Song of Songs Rabbah 8:16; Lamentations Rabbah 1:48), there can be no question that we are dealing with a "who" and not just with a "what," with a personal dimension of God and not just with an impersonal power, with God himself and yet with a "separate" entity who can mediate between God and man. And these citations closely parallel some of the New Testament descriptions of the Holy Spirit, although virtually all the Rabbinic texts cited were written many years later."

Early and modern Jewish scholars have wrestled with the fact that the scriptures teach that there is only one G-d. But there are three distinct figures who all seem to be G-d. Thus we can see that the doctrine of the Trinity came out of the Jewish scriptures, it was not an idea stolen from pagans or made up by Christians, but revealed from what Jesus taught of himself and what the Jewish scriptures had already established.


We all wrestle-but Christians did not "invent" the Triune Godhead.

Shalom

J.

Compare these people with the Messiah.

The Messiah’s God is only one person. The deity of these people isn’t one person.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Trinitarianism is incompatible with Jewish monotheism. You know and have said, rightly, that Jewish Monotheism is unitarian.

Jewish mysticism approaches trinitarianism but falls just short. I reject Jewish mysticism and trinitarians should too.
Too close to truth-right? And you read in part-disappointing-I can cite more Jewish scholars re the Triune Godhead.

J.
 

David in NJ

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Jewish recognition of a TrinitySF
BySeth Fitzgerald

General Topics
As an introduction to this paper, let me be very clear. I am by no means an Orthodox Jew, nor do I partake in any sect of Rabbinic Judaism, though I am Jewish. I am a Christian (not a Catholic). But before you read this and are immediately put off by this fact, allow me to take the opportunity to at the very least, show you my thoughts and findings.

It is a common belief among religious Jews alike that the doctrine of the Trinity is merely a Christian invention, and before the rise of Christianity, early Jews never thought of or even considered the idea of a multi-personal G-d, and only thought of G-d as being a completely unified single figure (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Christians either made up the Trinity to explain how Jesus revealed himself, or they stole it from the pagans. This, however, is simply untrue.

And if one took the time to carefully study early Jewish writings you'll find that indeed many Jewish authors struggled with the idea of three powers in the Tanakh who all seemed to be G-d. I will publish more papers exclusively elaborating on the presence of the Trinity in the Tanakh alone, but I'll continue.


דברים ו׳:ד׳
(ד) שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה ׀ אֶחָֽד׃
Deuteronomy 6:4

(4) Hear, O Israel! יהוה is our God, יהוה alone.

Many ancient Jews and Jewish scholars today recognize the fact that there seemed to be multiple powers in heaven. Jewish Scholar and Theologian Dr. Benjamin D. Sommer has stated in a lecture series on one of his published works The Bodies of God And the World of Ancient Israel that the concept of the Trinity isn't at all foreign to the Near East or in Judaism. In that lecture, he states:

"I'm actually rather uncomfortable with my own conclusion here, but as a Scholar, I got to call 'em as I see 'em..."
he goes on to say,
"...one of the conclusions that I came to, to my shock when I finished this book is that we Jews have no theological objection to the doctrine of the Trinity."

He goes on to explain that Kabbalistic texts, specifically Sefer HaBahir explains that the same concept appears in Jewish literature and mysticism. Even in a published paper by Hadar Cohen, simply titled Sefirot which in actuality is a quotation of the works by Rabbi David Seidenberg. He took the time to explain what they actually are, "God emanates ten vessels through which the world is created, called sefirot, which are both parts of God and created by God." Clearly, this concept functions in a monotheistic context, although there are slight differences between the two teachings.

ספר הבהיר קכ״ה
(קכה) ואמאי קרי ליה ספירות, משום דכתיב (תהלים י"ט ב) השמים מספרים כבוד אל:

Sefer HaBahir 125
What are the Sefirot?
The Sefirot – God emanates ten vessels through which the world is created, called sefirot, which are both part of God and created by God. These vessels are channels of light or water, and they also are light. They are God and of God, but they cannot define God or limit God – what is truly God is wholly beyond these descriptions, beyond the first sefirah, called Keter or crown, denoted by the term Ein Sof – without limit, without end.
_______
So as Dr. Benjamin D. Sommer points out, there are plenty of clear passages in the Tanakh where we see different "persons" or "powers" of G-d who are all distinct, yet still one G-d.

Early Jews wrote about this nature of G-d because they recognized it throughout the texts. To be fair, not all of them interpreted (or will interpret) these passages the same way a traditional Christian Trinitarian would.

But the point is that they do recognize the existence of other powers alongside G-d and multiple powers who are all called G-d (by the Divine Name). This
And if one took the time to carefully study early Jewish writings you'll find that indeed many Jewish authors struggled with the idea of three powers in the Tanakh who all seemed to be G-d. I will publish more papers exclusively elaborating on the presence of the Trinity in the Tanakh alone, but I'll continue.
100% TRUE

The monotheist Jews, throughout History are the ones who persecuted and killed the Prophets who Spoke by the Spirit of MESSIAH

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify,
and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

@Johann - can you count to 'three' in this passage???

i SEE two groupings of 3
 

Matthias

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This what you say of yourself is true

Thank you. It never ceases to amaze me when people say that what I say about myself isn’t true. Your comment is refreshing.

The Jews who walked with the Jewish Messiah full well KNEW the 1st Commandment and OBEYED it to their death.

Those of them who believed that Jesus is the Messiah whom their God had promised and raised up did. Those who didn’t believe Jesus is the Messiah whom their God promised and raised up didn’t.

As we see, Jewish monotheism alone isn’t enough. Without the belief that a fellow Jewish monotheist (Jesus of Nazareth) is the Messiah, the Jewish monotheist is unbelieving, disobedient, and cut off from the God of Jewish monotheism.

The True Living God commands us to not have any gods before Him - Deuteronomy 5:7
I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
‘You shall have no other gods before Me

The Apostle John was a Jew who walked with the Lord Jesus Christ did he not @Matthias ???

Certainly. John, like Jesus and all of the other apostles, is a believing and obedient Jewish monotheist.

I think it’s more than reasonable to read the writings of Jewish monotheists with the mind of believing Jewish monotheists.
 

Matthias

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Too close to truth-right? And you read in part-disappointing-I can cite more Jewish scholars re the Triune Godhead.

J.

Too close to the truth? You can quote many Jewish scholars who have converted to trinitarianism. We both can. They gave up Jewish unitary monotheism when they became trinitary monotheists.

Jesus hasn’t converted to trinitary monotheism. He remains a Jewish unitary monotheist. His God is, always has been, and always will be only one person, the Father.
 
J

Johann

Guest
100% TRUE

The monotheist Jews, throughout History are the ones who persecuted and killed the Prophets who Spoke by the Spirit of MESSIAH

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify,
and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

@Johann - can you count to 'three' in this passage???

i SEE two groupings of 3
I don't want to go into this but to show @Matthias he might want to reread the Sages and scholars-Jewish scholars and what THEY are saying since most of this information is concealed from the average Christian.

Not only this, I have my own Jewish Bible and know the difference between yachid and echad.

God bless.

Johann.
 
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David in NJ

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Thank you.



Jesus is a man. He was begotten by Yahweh in the womb of his mother, a virgin. Jesus didn’t make himself God. The accusation of the unbelieving Jews is false.

Just as Yahweh made Moses God to Pharaoh, so Yahweh made Jesus God to mankind. That is why trinitarian scholars speak about Jesus as “the new Moses.”



That’s incompatible with Jewish monotheism.



Jesus refers to himself as the other helper, the comforter. He comes to his followers in spirit.

As a Jewish monotheist I don’t see the Trinity in this grouping. What I see are two persons - Yahweh and Jesus - and the spirit of of truth.



I agree with, and have quoted, trinitarian scholars - both Catholic and Protestant - who don’t agree with what you see in Genesis. As a Jewish monotheist, the only God I see in Genesis is Yahweh (the God and Father of my lord) speaking with his angelic council.



Shalom in the name of my lord Jesus Messiah.
THANK YOU @Matthias for your invitation to speak with you on here

Jesus is a man. He was begotten by Yahweh in the womb of his mother, a virgin. Jesus didn’t make himself God. The accusation of the unbelieving Jews is false.
No scripture in the NT says that the Word who became flesh was begotten by Yahweh/Lord

the Apostle John, a Jew of Elohim, KNEW who the Word was BEFORE HE came to earth, thus John wrote his Gospel in TRUTH
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His Glory,
the Glory as of
the only begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.

There is no "Lord" that begot the only begotten Son of God here in the Gospel

There are THREE Elohim in the Gospel of TRUTH = FATHER/WORD/HOLY SPIRIT
 

David in NJ

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I don't want to go into this but to show @Matthias he might want to reread the Sages and scholars-Jewish scholars and what THEY are saying since most of this information is concealed from the average Christian.

Not only this, I have my own Jewish Bible and know the difference between yachid and echad.

God bless.

Johann.
Thus, our Heavenly FATHER placed us together in MESSIAH so that we can have the HOLY SPIRT and thus we speak
 
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