Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[Ronald Nolette]

How so? Darius gave the decree around 520BC. That was 516 years before Jesus was born. You are not understanding the issue here. There were 2 sets of weeks, 7 and 62. 49 years and 434 years. The work stopped after 49 years. That is why Artaxerxes had to restart it. So 434 years after the 487 date. That is why only 2 people were still alive waiting, Anna and Simon. Everyone else was dead and forgot about the prophecy. When the wise men showed up, they had to dig through the manuscripts. Then Herod killed those at least 2 years of age to cover the "missed time". But one cannot pinpoint to the exact date. The 69 weeks were already up. Only the life of Christ on earth both as Christ and Prince would complete the 70th week. Revelation 10:6-7 is when time is up.

I do not know where you get your history but the dates they gave you are woefully wrong!. The Darius you spoke of did rule in 522 till 486 but he is not the ruler who issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

It was Artaxerxes ( Ahasuerus) who issued the decree to restore Jerusalem in 457 B.C. Remember the decree is two fold: restore and rebuild. Restore (shub) was to reestablish local autonomy of Jerusalem which this decree accomplished, and then with Nehemiah returning, Jerusalem was rebuilt (bana) in the 52 days!

This is the historical timeline and is well proven.

Cyrus gave permission to rebuild the temple not the city.

Darius I (Darius trhe Great) in c. 520 B.C. reaffirmed the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the temple, not the city.

 

[Timtofly]

I do not know where you get your history but the dates they gave you are woefully wrong!. The Darius you spoke of did rule in 522 till 486 but he is not the ruler who issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

It was Artaxerxes ( Ahasuerus) who issued the decree to restore Jerusalem in 457 B.C. Remember the decree is two fold: restore and rebuild. Restore (shub) was to reestablish local autonomy of Jerusalem which this decree accomplished, and then with Nehemiah returning, Jerusalem was rebuilt (bana) in the 52 days!

This is the historical timeline and is well proven.

Cyrus gave permission to rebuild the temple not the city.

Darius I (Darius trhe Great) in c. 520 B.C. reaffirmed the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the temple, not the city.

Read Ezra. It is all there. I did not say Cyrus. I said Darius.

Artaxerxes did not issue a decree. He allowed Darius' decree to resume after the work had stopped. Do I need to post a copy of the whole book of Ezra?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Read Ezra. It is all there. I did not say Cyrus. I said Darius.

Artaxerxes did not issue a decree. He allowed Darius' decree to resume after the work had stopped. Do I need to post a copy of the whole book of Ezra?

YOu need to reread Daniel 9. the decree to RESTORE and REBUILD not just rebuild. Restore meant to allow local autonomous rule. So it was Artexerxes who issued both decrees, thus starting the prophecy.

with Gods word close enough is not good enough!

 

[Timtofly]

YOu need to reread Daniel 9. the decree to RESTORE and REBUILD not just rebuild. Restore meant to allow local autonomous rule. So it was Artexerxes who issued both decrees, thus starting the prophecy.

with Gods word close enough is not good enough!

"Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power. Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia"

"And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

So you are claiming only the wall was Jerusalem, not the temple and actual buildings, and actual people?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power. Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia"

"And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

So you are claiming only the wall was Jerusalem, not the temple and actual buildings, and actual people?

YOu are focusing on just one part of teh prophecy- the rebuilding. But the prophecy had two components- restore and rebuild. they are tow totally different thigns.

 

[Timtofly]

YOu are focusing on just one part of teh prophecy- the rebuilding. But the prophecy had two components- restore and rebuild. they are tow totally different thigns.

I just pointed out 3 different decrees. That is hardly focused on one. You are focused on a single one to give a specific result.

You could have at least claimed I was not focused enough?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I just pointed out 3 different decrees. That is hardly focused on one. You are focused on a single one to give a specific result.

You could have at least claimed I was not focused enough?

Well I told you , you were just focusing on te4h rebuild part of the one decree and to the restore. But it was only Artaxerxes who issued a decree to both rebuild and restore.

Half fulfillment is not biblical fulfilment.

 

[dad]

Well I told you , you were just focusing on te4h rebuild part of the one decree and to the restore. But it was only Artaxerxes who issued a decree to both rebuild and restore.

Half fulfillment is not biblical fulfilment.

That is what I heard also. The amazing thing is that no matter what decree people want to use, I think they all end up somewhere in the life of Jesus. Is that right? If not, we could certainly eliminate any decrees that fall outside of the target.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That is what I heard also. The amazing thing is that no matter what decree people want to use, I think they all end up somewhere in the life of Jesus. Is that right? If not, we could certainly eliminate any decrees that fall outside of the target.

No several end the 483 years long before Jesus was even born! Then they have to play twister with Scripture to answer the prohecy that after 48s years Jesus dies. The various reasonings they give would even make the Watchtower blush with the level of human philosophy used.

 

[dad]

No several end the 483 years long before Jesus was even born! Then they have to play twister with Scripture to answer the prohecy that after 48s years Jesus dies. The various reasonings they give would even make the Watchtower blush with the level of human philosophy used.

Basically they do not believe in prophesy, or the reality of God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Basically they do not believe in prophesy, or the reality of God.

Well a revised allegorical prophesy, which is not Gods! It is sad. I was one of them once. then I realized teh danger of reinterpreting the word of God to fit an agenda instead of fitting my agenda with teh Word of God as it is written recognizing the symbols, but knowing the bible consistently defines the symbols.

 

[Timtofly]

Well I told you , you were just focusing on te4h rebuild part of the one decree and to the restore. But it was only Artaxerxes who issued a decree to both rebuild and restore.

Half fulfillment is not biblical fulfilment.

And you never quoted any verses, so it is your interpretation, no?

You can be dogmatic on your date. It also is a pointless endeavor. Having fulfillment is that the life of Jesus happened after the 69 weeks. You cannot have 101% fulfillment, by getting a perfect fit of your choosing, can you? The point I made is no less 100% fulfillment than trying to force fit any other interpretation.

 

[dad]

And you never quoted any verses, so it is your interpretation, no?

You can be dogmatic on your date. It also is a pointless endeavor. Having fulfillment is that the life of Jesus happened after the 69 weeks. You cannot have 101% fulfillment, by getting a perfect fit of your choosing, can you? The point I made is no less 100% fulfillment than trying to force fit any other interpretation.

To be clear, when do you think the 483 years ended?

 

[Timtofly]

To be clear, when do you think the 483 years ended?

I am one of those who point out they ended 434 years after Artexerxes allowed the work to continue. But I am not going to be dogmatic on the specific year. Funny how no one in the OT actually put the BC year as a reference point. But seriously, we have Scripture that claims 2 witnesses, Anna and Simon, who were almost if not at 100 years of age, as being the only two humans still expecting the birth of a Messiah.

Trying to be specific seems to be overthinking the point. But each person is allowed their own interpretational bias. The 69 weeks finished. Now the Messiah could be born, could live, be the Atonement, and ascend back into heaven. That is what this point was all about, no?

 

[dad]

I am one of those who point out they ended 434 years after Artexerxes allowed the work to continue. But I am not going to be dogmatic on the specific year. Funny how no one in the OT actually put the BC year as a reference point. But seriously, we have Scripture that claims 2 witnesses, Anna and Simon, who were almost if not at 100 years of age, as being the only two humans still expecting the birth of a Messiah.

Trying to be specific seems to be overthinking the point. But each person is allowed their own interpretational bias. The 69 weeks finished. Now the Messiah could be born, could live, be the Atonement, and ascend back into heaven. That is what this point was all about, no?

So you understand that the prophesy told the number of years till Messiah? The prophesy was, after all, all about Jesus. That He would come in so many years, and that He would then be killed (cut off)

 

[Timtofly]

So you understand that the prophesy told the number of years till Messiah? The prophesy was, after all, all about Jesus. That He would come in so many years, and that He would then be killed (cut off)

No, the prophecy pointed out after 490 years, 70 weeks, that God would grant a list of promises.

Nothing was stipulated to happen at any certain time. That a Messiah a Prince would come was pointed out. The mention of a birth is found in other Scriptures. The 70th week was not a given time frame. Verse 27 is not the 70th week.

My interpretation is that Jesus is the 70th week. Half as Messiah, and half as Prince.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

We know the Messiah part has happened. We are waiting for the Prince part.

Is it luck that even, from some people's estimation, that the full 69 weeks can fit in the same amount of time as 62 weeks? I mean the fact is, 62 is smaller than 69. It certainly is not more than. People who don't want to gap 70 weeks certainly have to "fix" the 7 and 62 part. I mean who states a continuous 70 by using the terms 7 and 62 which is still short a whole week? Scripture already puts a gap between 49 and 50. Is having a gap or not having a gap in this set of verses that critical? Or totally besides the whole point of the 6 promises given?

Jesus has not come to earth as Prince yet. That is technically part of the whole scenario, no?

 

[dad]

Nothing was stipulated to happen at any certain time.

So if I say that 'after' I post I will fly to Germany, that is a certain time. So when the prophesy says 'from' the issuing of a commandment, that denotes a certain starting point. The whole prayer starts off as Daniel was realizing that a time specific prophesy was coming to an end.

in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

So Daniel was talking about time. He asked God not to delay, knowing the 70 years was almost up.

Daniel 9:19
O lord, hear, O Lord, forgive; O Lord, attend and do; do not delay, for Thine own sake, O my God, for Thy name is called on Thy city, and on Thy people.'

Ten Gabriel explains there is a specific time determined to wrap it all up. Not just what Jeremiah prophesied about. There is an exact period of time settled and decided already and that time is seventy groups of seven years. That is specific. That is certain. In this prophesy, unlike that of Jeremiah, it deals with the end of the world. Just looking at the prophesy we can see that there is no other possible explanation.

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy ‘sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

The world and Jerusalem can not see everlasting righteousness now. Nor any time in the past. Some people believing in the world does not bring in everlasting righteousness. Only Jesus returning to earth can do that. Not all prophesy is fulfilled when a few people get saved somewhere now. So this prophesy includes Jesus atoning, therefore it involves Jesus coming and being born and dying here also.That is very specific.

Daniel 9:25
"Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,' and sixty-two ‘sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

This is a prophesy involving a certain time until a certain event. (Jesus coming here)
When you said 'Nothing was stipulated to happen at any certain time' that is clearly outrageously blatantly false.

Not only are we specifically told Jesus would come, but it goes on with other specifics!

Daniel 9:26
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

So we are told Jesus would be put to death. Specifically. Also that wars would always continue until the end. Those are specific.

When do wars (there and everywhere else) cease? Only when the Prince of peace comes.

Then it goes on to talk about the final group of seven years when a specific covenant for seven years is made.

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.' In the middle of the ‘seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

This is the abomination Jesus specified was in the end!

 

[Keraz]

Daniel 9:24 Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city – to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, vision and prophecy ratified and the Most Holy place anointed.

Daniel 9:25-27 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Anointed One, the ruler comes – there will be seven sevens and sixty two sevens. It will be rebuilt with streets and drains, but in troubled times. After the 62 sevens, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come, will destroy the city and sanctuary. The end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with the many for one ‘seven’. In the middle of the seven, he will put an end to the sacrifice and offering. In the Temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out upon him.
Reference REB, NIV, KJV.

Verse 24 - The Angel Gabriel’s message for the end of this age:

1/To complete and finalize the transgressions of the wicked peoples.[Time of the Gentiles]

2/ To make an end to disobedience against God. [Punishment of His enemies]

3/ To make reconciliation for iniquity. [Forgiveness for His people]

4/ To usher in the age of Righteousness. [The Christians– ‘a light to the nations’]

5/ To fulfil prophesy. [The promises to the Patriarchs and to Israel]

6/ To sanctify the Temple. [The Third Temple, built by the people of New Israel, Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5]


Verse 25: 70 times 7 = 490 years. The first 7 ‘weeks’ = 49 years, starts from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem in the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes. This was in 445BC. Jerusalem’s walls and streets were rebuilt ‘even in troublous times’. As Nehemiah and Ezra describe.

Verse 26 Then another 62 ‘weeks’ = 434 years, plus the 49, makes a total of 483 prophetic years until ‘Messiah, the Prince, is cut off’.
‘There shall be nothing for Him’, means that at that time He did not receive the Millennium Kingdom. ‘The people of the ruler to come, will destroy Jerusalem, including the Temple’, refers to the Roman destruction in 69/70AD. This gives us the clue to the origin of the Anti Christ, who will lead a restored Roman Empire.

Then, there has been a gap of nearly 2000 years, till the present day.

The end period; the 70th of the 7 ‘weeks’ = 7 years will be made up of 2 periods of 1260 days each. It will be the closing time of this age, ‘the end shall be with a flood’. Flood is better translated as – an overflowing; of troubles. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Verse 27 The Anti Christ will make a 7 year treaty with the ‘many’. That is, the holy people of God: every born again Christian, living in their own Land. There will be a faithful group who will oppose this agreement, so this treaty is made with many, but not all of His people, the Christian Israelites of God. Daniel 11:32, Isaiah 28:14-15.

The Anti-Christ will break this after 1260 days, which will commence the Great Tribulation. He sets up his own image in the Temple, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then after the final 1260 days, he will meet his end. Daniel 11:45, Revelation 19:20.

 

[dad]

Verse 24 - The Angel Gabriel’s message for the end of this age:

1/To complete and finalize the transgressions of the wicked peoples.[Time of the Gentiles]

2/ To make an end to disobedience against God. [Punishment of His enemies]

3/ To make reconciliation for iniquity. [Forgiveness for His people]

4/ To usher in the age of Righteousness. [The Christians– ‘a light to the nations’]

No. Having believers on earth does not usher in a new world or righteousness. Jesus returning does that.

5/ To fulfil prophesy. [The promises to the Patriarchs and to Israel]

There are tons of prophesies about the end involving Israel that have to be fulfilled.

6/ To sanctify the Temple. [The Third Temple, built by the people of New Israel, Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5]

? The third temple is built by 'the new Israel'??

Verse 25: 70 times 7 = 490 years. The first 7 ‘weeks’ = 49 years, starts from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem in the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes. This was in 445BC. Jerusalem’s walls and streets were rebuilt ‘even in troublous times’. As Nehemiah and Ezra describe.

Let's look at that. If your idea of what commandment marked the start of the prophesy was correct, what year would it end? if you start in 445 BC, then we had 483 years till Jesus was here, that would mean the prophesy ended when exactly? 37 or 38 AD?

Verse 26 Then another 62 ‘weeks’ = 434 years, plus the 49, makes a total of 483 prophetic years until ‘Messiah, the Prince, is cut off’.
‘There shall be nothing for Him’, means that at that time He did not receive the Millennium Kingdom. ‘The people of the ruler to come, will destroy Jerusalem, including the Temple’, refers to the Roman destruction in 69/70AD. This gives us the clue to the origin of the Anti Christ, who will lead a restored Roman Empire.

Jesus was 33 years old when He was cut off. I am not sure your numbers work.

Then, there has been a gap of nearly 2000 years, till the present day.

The end period; the 70th of the 7 ‘weeks’ = 7 years will be made up of 2 periods of 1260 days each. It will be the closing time of this age, ‘the end shall be with a flood’. Flood is better translated as – an overflowing; of troubles. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Verse 27 The Anti Christ will make a 7 year treaty with the ‘many’. That is, the holy people of God: every born again Christian, living in their own Land. There will be a faithful group who will oppose this agreement, so this treaty is made with many, but not all of His people, the Christian Israelites of God. Daniel 11:32, Isaiah 28:14-15.

So now it sounds like you are claiming born again Christians will be the occupants of the land of Israel in the end. (rather than Jewish people)

 

[Keraz]

So now it sounds like you are claiming born again Christians will be the occupants of the land of Israel in the end. (rather than Jewish people)

Yes I am, as that is what the Bible Prophecies. Didn't you bother to look at Isaiah 62:1-5?

Isaiah 49:14-23 Zion says: The Lord has forsaken me. The Lord says: Can a woman forget her child? I shall never forget you. I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands. Your dwellings are always before My eyes.

Your people will hasten back, while your enemies depart. Look around, your children gather and come to you. They will be as ornaments in the Land.

Once the Land was desolate. Your enemies are now far away. The children born while the Land was occupied by foreigners will now say: This place is too small for us. Zion will say; who bore these children, when I was deserted, where did they come from?

The Lord says; I shall signal to the nations, they will carefully transport My people to their Promised Land. Kings will be your sponsors and great people will serve and honour you. You will know that I am the Lord, none who trust in Me will be disappointed.

Zion: The holy Land, forsaken and desolate, Jeremiah 22:6-7, Hosea 4:3, that is how it will be after the next prophesied event: The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, an explosion of the sun, directed at the Middle East that will clear and cleanse the entire area. Currently most of the holy Land is occupied by atheists or false religion worshippers. The Jews will be judged, Zechariah 13:7-9, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7

‘the enemies depart, they are now far away’: Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11 tell us how the surrounding nations and entities all hate Israel and want to ‘wipe them off the map’. Those attackers will all be killed, some by their own weapons; Psalms 7:12-16, and the rest of the inhabitants will flee. Jeremiah 49:4-5 & 35-37

‘Your people will hasten back’: A part of Judah has returned, but very few are true believers and Judah now faces judgement. A remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:13 All true Christians are now the Lord’s people: Romans 9:24-26, Psalms 24:3-5, Malachi 3:16-17

‘The Lord’s people, all those who put their trust in Him’: Christians from every race, nation and language, will be gathered and transported to all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Isaiah 66:18b-20, Psalms 107, Jer. 23:3-4, Zechariah 9:16 On that Day their God will save them, they will sparkle like jewels in the Land.

‘The Promised Land’: will be regenerated and become fruitful. Joel 2:21-24, Psalms 126:1-5

Ezekiel 36:8-12 You, mountains of Israel, put forth your branches and bear fruit, for the homecoming of your people is near. Isaiah 51:3

Isaiah 35:1-10 Let the desert be glad, let it flower and rejoice!...Be strong, My people, fear not: your God comes to save you with His vengeance and retribution. Then; understanding will be given to all who couldn’t see or comprehend the Prophetic Word.

A highway will appear and by that road, the Lord’s redeemed people will travel into their heritage. His holy people, set free will enter Zion with shouts of praise for their Redeemer. Gladness and joy will come upon them and suffering and sorrow will be gone.

Psalms 48:11-14 The hills of Zion rejoice, Judah’s cities are glad. Walk about the holy Land, count the towers. Note the fortifications and buildings, so that you can tell about them to the coming generations. For this God is our God, our guide and protector, now and forever.

Psalms 69:35-36 For God will deliver Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah. The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His Name will dwell there.

Isaiah 55:11-13 You will go out with joy and be led forth in peace....the Land will rejoice at your coming. Reference: Revised English Bible, some verses abridged.

That all this happens before the Return of Jesus in His glory, is made clear by Isaiah 49:23, ‘you will know that I am the Lord’’. And in many other prophesies, where it says how His people will know the Lord. Ezekiel 38:23
First, His people will gather and settle in all of the holy Land. Those who serve the Lord will inherit the Land. Psalms 126:1-5

All this is prophesied to happen as all the faithful Christians prepare for the eventual Millennial reign of Jesus.