Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[The Light]

Ok, here is where you need your big boy logic pants on. When you see the 144,000 that are sealed in Rev 7, that means they are sealed with the spirit of God and are Christians. That sealing of the 144,000 has to occur earlier in the seals, before Christ returns at the 6th seal. How do we know that?

We know we are in the great tribulation, in Rev 14 by this verse.

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

We know we are in the great tribulation in Rev 6 by this verse.

Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So logic should tell us that if the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth, BEFORE the great tribulation, they have to be SEALED BEFORE the great tribulation. That means that the sealing of the 144,000 occurs BEFORE the 6th seal and not after the sixth seal. Further, absolute proof of this is the great multitude. That great multitude is the gathering from heaven and earth. The majority of the dead and alive raptured from the earth after the tribulation are of the 12 tribes. Since the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth prior to the great tribulation you know that they are part of those gathered from heaven at the gathering at the 6th seal and thus are part of the great multitude. Therefore they do not go through the wrath of God.

We can go further. We see the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, prior to the wrath of God. That lines up perfectly with the coming of Jesus in Rev 14 just prior to the wrath of God.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Then the trumpets and seal line up and occur during the same timeframe. They are different views or more information of what happens during the wrath of God.

Revelation reads just like the Genesis 7 flood story. Noah enters the ark with his family and the animals, and then the flood comes. Then what happens? You get another version with more information. Noah and all enter the ark and 7 days later the flood comes. Then you get another version. On the selfsame days Noah, his family and all the animals enter the ark. Thats more information. That tells you that it does not take 7 days to load the animals, it all happens on the same day. Then the flood comes.

Revelation is the same type pattern. Seals, Jesus comes in the clouds, wrath, wrath ends and Jesus sets up His kingdom. Then seals, Jesus comes in the clouds, wrath, wrath ends and Jesus returns to the earth.

I'd like to add:
No matter how many great TV preachers tell you that the tribulation is the wrath of God, they are incorrect.

 

[dad]

It certainly appears that the 144,000 are sealed after the coming of Jesus, after the tribulation, after the 6th seal. Is that truly the case? ...

That is the question.

Then we jump to Rev 7 and see that the 144,000 are sealed.

Right. After the things we just saw including the sixth seal.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Jesus has come for the harvest and the gathering has occurred that happens just before the day of the Lord, which begins with the wrath of God.

Is His throne not in heaven? The multitude was before His throne. It does not say on earth. Also, one of the things that happened before was that the wrath was announced as having arrived. Then, after that, we see the 144,000 sealed in a scene before the throne of God.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So everything is laid out perfectly. Now let's toss in the verse that throws smoke on the situation.

Except Paul there was talking about the Rapture.

This makes it appear that those 144,000 are going THROUGH the wrath of God because they have been sealed. But do they? Let's jump to the end of the wrath of God.

Well if it really made it clear why are you asking?

The 7th angel sounds and the wrath of God is over. The dead are judged and rewards are given. WRATH IS OVER, IT IS FINISHED. DONE, COMPLETE.

Revelation 11:17

Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Revelation 11:18

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


That is after the tribulation, when He reigns. Why seal witnesses then?

Now we are at Rev 12 which shows the dragon attempting to kill the Christ child and then tells of the woman Israel in a place of protection. Then the dragon goes after the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. This is happening during the tribulation. WE ARE BACK IN THE 1ST 6 SEALS.

Rev 13 tells us about the beasts. We are still in the seals.

That is before Jesus returns.

Rev 14 tells of the 144,000 being redeemed from the earth and being the first fruits of the second harvest.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

What do you think that means? The 144,000 are redeemed but do go through the tribulation. The protection for them is needed in the tribulation.

 

[dad]

When you see the 144,000 that are sealed in Rev 7, that means they are sealed with the spirit of God and are Christians.

They are saved Jews in the tribulation period. Many people are saints in this time Jew and Gentile. Not all, apparently have the sort of protection the 144,000 have.

That sealing of the 144,000 has to occur earlier in the seals, before Christ returns at the 6th seal. How do we know that?

We know we are in the great tribulation, in Rev 14 by this verse.

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

That verse is saying that people killed in that terrible time are blessed.

We know we are in the great tribulation in Rev 6 by this verse.

Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I won't argue with that either. The seals are stuff that happens in that last 7 years.

So logic should tell us that if the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth, BEFORE the great tribulation,

No. Logic tells me that they are an important and powerful witness in the Tribulation and go through it.

they have to be SEALED BEFORE the great tribulation. That means that the sealing of the 144,000 occurs BEFORE the 6th seal and not after the sixth seal.

Yet in Rev 7 the 144,000 are sealed, so that then has to be, by your logic, before the tribulation. Yet it is said to happen after that sixth seal.

Further, absolute proof of this is the great multitude. That great multitude is the gathering from heaven and earth. The majority of the dead and alive raptured from the earth after the tribulation are of the 12 tribes.

Who says? How would we know the numbers? There are a lot more Gentiles than Jews in the world.

Since the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth prior to the great tribulation you know that they are part of those gathered from heaven at the gathering at the 6th seal and thus are part of the great multitude. Therefore they do not go through the wrath of God.

Where does it say the 144,000 are taken off the planet in or before the tribulation?

We can go further. We see the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, prior to the wrath of God. That lines up perfectly with the coming of Jesus in Rev 14 just prior to the wrath of God.

Not prior to the wrath of God. Prior to the worst of that wrath, the winepress of it.
Clear back in Rev 6 we see the wrath was here. Later with the vials we see that those are the worst or completion of the wrath.

Then the trumpets and seal line up and occur during the same timeframe. They are different views or more information of what happens during the wrath of God.

We are trying to see how they line up. They do not, for example line up to say the wrath of God is only after the Tribulation.

Revelation is the same type pattern. Seals, Jesus comes, wrath. Then seals, Jesus comes and wrath.

The vials are before He returns. So it is probably a little more like...the wrath comes as seals are opened, and trumpets sounded and vials poured.

 

[Davy]

Davy, the verses you are posting occur at the end of Gods wrath at the 7th trumpet or the 7th vial which are the same timeframe.

No, they occur ON the time of God's wrath upon the wicked, on the "day of the Lord". Jesus said He comes "as a thief", as He is Who gave the 'thief in the night' metaphor for the "day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5; 2 Peter 3:10). And because 2 Peter 3:10 reveals man's works are burned off this earth on that "day of the Lord", BOTH of those events, God's consuming fire, and Christ's coming appearing in the clouds, happens together. That is the "sudden destruction" Apostle Paul taught on that day in 1 Thessalonians 5. The 6th Seal timing when the wicked see The Father sitting on His Throne in Heaven, and is that same time with Jesus' coming in the clouds pouring out God's cup of wrath. That event also is when Paul's 'change' at the 'twinkling of an eye' on the "last trump" happens for those still alive. It will be like shroooooom.... and the heavenly is suddenly revealed to all on earth, with God's consuming fire ending this present world, and we are all changed to the "spiritual body" and immediately are gathered to Jesus on His way to the Mount of Olives, for Zechariah 14 reveals Jesus brings ALL His elect saints there with Him. This is why the 7th Vial is poured out into the "air", and not upon the earth. The so-called 'rapture', or actually "caught up" per the KJV, is dependent upon that 'change' at the "twinkling of an eye" on the "last trump", a change to the "spiritual body", which is HOW those in Christ are gathered to Him at His coming. None are gathered in the 'flesh'. This is why God's consuming fire and the cup of wrath happen at the same time that all alive are suddenly changed.

 

[Davy]

Great. That was news to you?

It's about CHRIST'S CHURCH, WHICH IS GOD'S ISRAEL, not your... concept of Israel.

 

[The Light]

It's about CHRIST'S CHURCH, WHICH IS GOD'S ISRAEL, not your... concept of Israel.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[Davy]

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Like I said, it is about GOD's concept of HIS Israel, which is Christ's Church!

Any of the Jews that still refuse Christ after His coming will be separated among the goats on Jesus' left-hand. And after the future 1,000 years, if they still reject Him, they will go into the "lake of fire" which is the "second death". So either now, or once God removes their blindness, ALL MUST accept Jesus Christ to be saved.

 

[dad]

It's about CHRIST'S CHURCH, WHICH IS GOD'S ISRAEL, not your... concept of Israel.

That depends on what you mean by 'it is about'. The tribulation is not about the church which is gone. It is about wrath and gathering that last harvest of believers including Jews. He is not bringing me 'back to the land' or restoring me to Israel etc. Those promises are for you know who. Denial changes nothing, and neither does capitol letters.

 

[Keraz]

Those promises are for you know who.

Gods Promises are to His faithful believers, every Christian person. Ethnicity is of no consequence.
The Parable of the Landowner: Ethnic Israel is rejected and the true Israelites is now the Church, every faithful Christian:
Matthew 21:33-46 Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it, built a watchtower and rented it out to vine-growers then went on a journey. When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers? They said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them: Did you never read in the Scriptures; The Stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is the Lord’s doing and it is amazing to us.

Therefore I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, who will produce the fruit of it. And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.

In this perfectly clear parable, paralleled by Isaiah 5:1-7, Jesus prophesied that the Jews, as a nation, were going to be replaced by something new; faithful Christians who do what they can to spread the Gospel and who fulfill their appointed tasks.
"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end" did happen in 70 AD.

Now the Jewish nation are back, but still rejecting Jesus and they face the third swing of the Sword, Ezekiel 21:14, their final judgement, Isaiah 6:11-13, and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27


The entire leadership of the early Christian Church and most of the Elders in the churches were Jewish. They became Christians who stopped keeping the Sabbath and abandoned the Mosaic system of Judaism. They began worshipping God on their seventh day of the working week, the Lord's day. Colossians 2:16-17

Jesus was a Jew, but most Jews rejected Him as the Messiah. then and now. Salvation is now open to both Jew and Gentile equally. Everyone must believe, repent, confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized for the remission of their sins. There is only one way to get saved!

Jews have no special route to heaven that Gentiles do not have. They all must believe and become true Christian believers to be saved.
Paul always began his evangelism in a new city by preaching in the Jewish synagogues. When the Jews rejected the gospel, he turned to the gentiles: But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said: It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; but since you Jews repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. Acts 13:45-46

1 Peter 2:7-10 So for you who have faith, the Cornerstone [Jesus] is of great value, but for the faithless it is a stone they trip over. They trip and fall because they refuse to believe the Word and this is the fate appointed for them.

But you Christians are now the chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated people, a nation claimed by God for His own. We are called out of darkness into His glorious Light. Once Christians were not a people, now you are God’s people…..
Notice that the; you are a chosen, holy nation of priests, that was originally applied to ethnic Israel at the foot of Mt. Sinai, Exodus 19:6, is now applied to Christians to the exclusion of ethnic Israel, unless they too, become Christian.

The fate appointed for them:
Jeremiah 12:14 has the clearest prophecy of God’s intentions for the apostate Jewish State of Israel.: …I shall uproot the evil neighbors from My Land and also Judah as well. But if they learn the ways of My [Christian] people, then; their families can join My people there.
Only a remnant of Jewish Israel will survive; Romans 9:27

 

[dad]

Gods Promises are to His faithful believers, every Christian person. Ethnicity is of no consequence.

No consequence to salvation. Total consequence as to inheriting Israel, being gathered and protected there etc.

Therefore I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, who will produce the fruit of it.

Indeed it was. That was the plan. They lost their place except those of them who believed in Jesus. Later they would be restored and have their place again.

Jews have no special route to heaven that Gentiles do not have.

Of course not. God keeping His promises to the remnant of believing Israel in the end has zero to do with any special route.

 

[ewq1938]

No consequence to salvation. Total consequence as to inheriting Israel, being gathered and protected there etc.


Indeed it was. That was the plan. They lost their place except those of them who believed in Jesus. Later they would be restored and have their place again.

That is not guaranteed though. They have to accept Christ to be returned to the tree and while some do accept Christ, the majority live and die rejecting him.

 

[The Light]

That is after the tribulation, when He reigns. Why seal witnesses then?

What do you think that means? The 144,000 are redeemed but do go through the tribulation. The protection for them is needed in the tribulation.

Boy, I guess I was wrong. I thought you needed your big boy logic pants on and were ready to jump in the deep end with the sharks. Appears more like ankle deep in the kiddie pool. I overestimated. My mistake.

You keep thinking that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same.
Let's just ask Jesus...one more time.

Hey Jesus. How will we know when the tribulation is over?

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Thanks Jesus.

Hey John. Where are the signs of the sun being darkened, the moon not giving her light and the stars falling from heaven in Revelation?

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Wow. That's simple. That means that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. That means that the tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same timeframe.

Until you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal, there is no way that you can understand Revelation.

 

[dad]

That is not guaranteed though. They have to accept Christ to be returned to the tree and while some do accept Christ, the majority live and die rejecting him.

The guarantee is after they get saved. All Israel will be saved. Until then, they have a lot of trouble to go through.

 

[ewq1938]

The guarantee is after they get saved. All Israel will be saved. Until then, they have a lot of trouble to go through.

Faithless israel will not be saved. They are exactly like gentiles who reject Christ.

The only people who are of the true Israel are Christians, Jew and Gentiles all one in the body of Christ.

 

[dad]

Faithless israel will not be saved. They are exactly like gentiles who reject Christ.

The bible says all Israel will be saved. Overruled. All the ones left alive that finally repent in the end.

The only people who are of the true Israel are Christians, Jew and Gentiles all one in the body of Christ.

Sounds like the no true Scotsman fallacy. We are one body now, as the church or Bride. Most Jewish people will not believe and join us. God has a plan for Israel also, and His promises to them are just as valid as anything promised to you. Those left behind are not in Christ until they come to faith.

…that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. (Deuteronomy 30:3-5)

That is not a promise to you or I. It is for the children of Abraham and Jacob.

Isaiah 43:5-7 the regathering of Israel to the land is described: “Fear not; for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the end of the earth; every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yea, whom I have made.”

Isaiah 60:21: “Thy people also shall be all righteous; they shall inherit the land for ever.

Jeremiah 30:7
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
Jeremiah 30:8
For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jeremiah 30:9
But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Jeremiah 30:10
Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord ; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jeremiah 30:11
For I am with thee, saith the Lord , to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

etc etc

 

[Davy]

The tribulation is not about the church which is gone.

You are dangerously in error about that. Nowhere in God's written Word is it written that Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation". Instead, Jesus showed His coming and gathering of His saints is AFTER... the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). Thus you are fibbing again.

 

[The Light]

You are dangerously in error about that. Nowhere in God's written Word is it written that Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation". Instead, Jesus showed His coming and gathering of His saints is AFTER... the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). Thus you are fibbing again.

Davy. There is somewhere where it is written that He will come in a day and hour that you think not. Also it is not fibbing when someone is honestly incorrect about something. However, in this case the man is spot on, and correct. The Church will be gone, raptured to heaven, before the seals of the 70th week of Daniel are opened. God will be regrafting the twelve tribes across the earth into the olive tree. They are the seed of the woman, Israel.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Davy. There is somewhere where it is written that He will come in a day and hour that you think not. Also it is not fibbing when someone is honestly incorrect about something. However, in this case the man is spot on, and correct. The Church will be gone, raptured to heaven, before the seals of the 70th week of Daniel are opened. God will be regrafting the twelve tribes across the earth into the olive tree. They are the seed of the woman, Israel.

Amen, there is also this


Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

How can we be kept from the hour of trial. if we go through it??

Sorts of contradicts itself.

 

[Keraz]

Amen, there is also this

What the believers in a rapture to heaven should carefully consider is: their belief is rejected by very many good and faithful Christians. It looks to me that about half do and half don't, but of course many actually don't hold to either side, they just say: Your will be done, Lord.

How can we be kept from the hour of trial. if we go through it??

Statements like this demonstrate a serious lack of understanding about how the Lord promises protection for all who: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

 

[dad]

You are dangerously in error about that. Nowhere in God's written Word is it written that Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation". Instead, Jesus showed His coming and gathering of His saints is AFTER... the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). Thus you are fibbing again.

We do know we are taken up into the air to meet Him. The gathering when He returns to earth is not the Rapture event as far as many millions of believers feel. You are in no position to cast stones. There is a gathering when he returns also. Probably another one at the end of the 1000 years for the saints in trouble then.
The issue of the Rapture is pretty well settled and not the topic here. You would be unable to offer an opinion on whether the war of Eze by Gog is before the Rapture or after since you do not believe in it at all, and simply try to include it in the second coming events.