Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[ewq1938]

The trumpets and vials do occur in the same timeframe.

Not the first 6 trumps. Only the timeframe of the 7th trump is the timeframe of the vials.

 

[dad]

It's not only possible, but it's a fact. All the seals are just showing John events that will happen later in the trumps. No event happens when a seal is opened other than John seeing the future. Jesus returns at the 7th trump and the 6th seal gives us a preview of it.

Interesting. Just wondering how you know nothing in the seals happens right away?

 

[ewq1938]

Interesting. Just wondering how you know nothing in the seals happens right away?

The 7th trump is when the second coming happens. The 6th seal is before the 7th trump but it describes the second coming. Certainly there aren't two second comings so one must be action where the other is information. I believe the seals only give information about trumpet events. Thus we see a glimpse of the second coming from the unsaved's perspective in the 6th seal but that event doesn't actually happen when that seal is opened. Just like the second coming described in the gospels also doesn't mean the second coming happened in those times, but it was merely a glimpse of the future event.

 

[ewq1938]

The 7th trump is when the second coming happens. The 6th seal is before the 7th trump but it describes the second coming. Certainly there aren't two second comings so one must be action where the other is information. I believe the seals only give information about trumpet events. Thus we see a glimpse of the second coming from the unsaved's perspective in the 6th seal but that event doesn't actually happen when that seal is opened. Just like the second coming described in the gospels also doesn't mean the second coming happened in those times, but it was merely a glimpse of the future event.

Also take note that Jesus does not leave heaven and return to the clouds of the Earth when the 6th seal is opened. No, he remains in heaven to open the last seal. He remains in heaven for the first 6 trumpets as well. Only at the 7th trump does he actually leave heaven and return to the clouds of the Earth.

 

[The Light]

Not the first 6 trumps. Only the timeframe of the 7th trump is the timeframe of the vials.

Why is the Euphrates dried up to prepare the way of the kings of the east in Rev16 at the sixth vial, but the event has already happened at the 6 trumpet in Rev 9

Rev 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 9
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

 

[ewq1938]

Why is the Euphrates dried up to prepare the way of the kings of the east in Rev16 at the sixth vial, but the event has already happened at the 6 trumpet in Rev 9

The river did not dry up in the 6th trump. That only happens in the 6th vial.

 

[The Light]

The 7th trump is when the second coming happens. The 6th seal is before the 7th trump but it describes the second coming. Certainly there aren't two second comings so one must be action where the other is information. I believe the seals only give information about trumpet events. Thus we see a glimpse of the second coming from the unsaved's perspective in the 6th seal but that event doesn't actually happen when that seal is opened. Just like the second coming described in the gospels also doesn't mean the second coming happened in those times, but it was merely a glimpse of the future event.

There are two comings. When Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet He will return to the earth. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal he remains in the clouds and all eyes will see Him. He will send his angels to gather the elect.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

You're only following how John wrote the events down, which is not the actual order of events. On the 6th Seal, it is showing the wicked on earth fearing for it is the time of God's Wrath, and they see The Father sitting upon His throne in Heaven. That means the 'veil' of this world is removed for them to see into Heaven. So it is definitely pointing to the day of Christ's 2nd coming, which is the SAME event of the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial.

That reveals that the 'true' order of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are in parallel to each other, NOT in sets one after the other.

At the 7th trumpet Jesus returns to the earth. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, he will remain in the clouds.

rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[ewq1938]

There are two comings.

Wrong. There is one coming left. The 6th seal describes the 7th trump coming.

 

[ewq1938]

At the 7th trumpet Jesus returns to the earth. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, he will remain in the clouds.

No. The one and only coming will start with Him at the clouds, descending to Armageddon to fight from the air and eventually he will step upon the ground.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Strange how you skipped over the Zechariah 13:6-7 verses which directly point to the event of Christ's crucifixion. Just who all makes up believers on Christ's death and resurrection? Are not believing Gentiles included? YES! of course they are included, and that is actually prophecy too in God's Old Testament prophets. It is Christ's Church that will reign in the holy lands with Jesus beginning at His future return, and that won't just be Israelites only. The rebellious of Israel that reject Jesus will be cast out, meaning outside the gates of the holy city, or don't you remember what Jesus said about those bid to the marriage supper but would not come? (Matthew 8:5-12)

That's not wat it means, that is you perceiving it wrong. Zechariah 13 just so happens to be one of my favorite chapters that I delved into many moons ago.

You guys conflate Jesus' death with way too many things that are really end time events, lie Zechariah 13, and some people try and say Dan. 0:27 is Jesus makes a Covenant. The word covenant in Hebrew simply means Agreement, they currently have 7 year agreements with the E.U. via the European Neighborhood Policy. Whilst everyone mistakenly looks to the RCC/Pope or the Islamic Nations, the agreements ate basically in place, awaiting the Rapture and then the Anti-Christ to affirm his TWIST to the agreements that he puts in with CONDITIONS (give up your Nukes and we will be your protector, as the USA is to Hawaii so to speak). Its such common sense, no one is conquering Israel without getting her to give up her nukes first.

Zechariah 13 explained in full......

We know Israel repents in Zechariah 12:10, Zechariah 13 is end times, but its about those who repent, and those who refuse t repent, whereas Zechariah 12 shows more so what drive them unto repentance. The rest of the world meddling in Israel's affairs etc. etc.

Zechariah 13:1 In that day(pointing back to 12:10 when Israel REPENTS) there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David(Jesus blood) and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day(when Israel REPENTS, nit when Jess dies), saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.{{Happens when Israel REPENTS not 2000 years ago !! Amen}}

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. {{ The Rabbis, the false prophet liars will not be allowed to cntinue their lies any more, they have lied about Jesus fir 2000 years, once the 3-5 milion Jews repent they will not just allow them to lie about Jesus any more}}

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. {{ The Rabbis will be ashamed of that which they had once taught. }}

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. {{{This is PROSE in the midst of a prophetic uttering meant to tie Jesus to this end time Prophecy, just like Psalm 22 where David foresaw Jesus on the cross, suffering, and he saw and felt what he was thinking and saying etc. etc. So, we get the ABOVE in verses 1-5, where the prophet Zechariah was telling us a Fountain will be opened ON THAT DAY (when Israel repents) unto the whole house of Israel, for Sin and Uncleanness !! Thus FINALLY they can be washed.......THEN in a sort of soliloquy, we get the Prophet Zechariah telling us about the Lamb who was Slain 2000 yeas before this end time EVENT so that Israel could be washed by his Fountain of Blood !! THEN.......We flash back to the children of Israel repenting in verses 8 and 9. }}}

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zechariah 14:1 the DOTL arrives, in verse 2 we see Israel is conquered, then in verses 3-4 and on we see Jesus returns and kills the Beast ad all his minions.

Israel repents at the VERY END, not 2000 years ago.

 

[The Light]

Wrong. There is one coming left. The 6th seal describes the 7th trump coming.

If you check the facts there are three comings. One when the Lord Himself comes for His Church before the 70th week of Daniel as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Then God will turn His attention to His chosen. The seed of the woman will be raptured from the earth at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. He will send His angels to gather the elect. As the days of Lot, destruction came the day Lot left Sodom. The marriage supper of the Lamb will be in heaven. Then Jesus will come with His armies from heaven for Armageddon etc. That's three comings.

 

[The Light]

No. The one and only coming will start with Him at the clouds, descending to Armageddon to fight from the air and eventually he will step upon the ground.

If you check the facts there are three comings. One when the Lord Himself comes for His Church before the 70th week of Daniel as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Then God will turn His attention to His chosen. The seed of the woman will be raptured from the earth at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. He will send His angels to gather the elect. As the days of Lot, destruction came the day Lot left Sodom. The marriage supper of the Lamb will be in heaven. Then Jesus will come with His armies from heaven for Armageddon etc. That's three comings.

 

[ewq1938]

If you check the facts there are three comings.

No, that is unscriptural.

 

[n2thelight]

Can one not understand that prophecy was basically written for those to whom the end would come

I Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns. What was written in the Exodus, or in Amos is written as examples for our admonition or warning. All of the Scriptures is given as a warning to those who are living in the times of the ends of this world age of the flesh. We will see the end of the flesh age come to a close, and there are many things that will come to pass right before our eyes that were written about in detail way back in the Old Testament time, and Paul is telling you and I to wake up to those warnings.

Each of the events that took place, the opening of the Red sea, the building of the false religious forms, and so on. God is telling us "look little children that is what is going to happen to you at the close of this earth age". We are living in that age, and these things are happening now. Can you learn by this? It is so simple. God did not leave us helpless nor hopeless in these end times, and that is why we must become skilled in all of His Word. It is all an example of what is going to befall us in our generation.

 

[n2thelight]

If you check the facts there are three comings. One when the Lord Himself comes for His Church before the 70th week of Daniel as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Then God will turn His attention to His chosen. The seed of the woman will be raptured from the earth at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. He will send His angels to gather the elect. As the days of Lot, destruction came the day Lot left Sodom. The marriage supper of the Lamb will be in heaven. Then Jesus will come with His armies from heaven for Armageddon etc. That's three comings.

It's sad that you even believe that ..There's only TWO advents of Christ in ALL of scripture, PERIOD!!!!

 

[dad]

The 7th trump is when the second coming happens. The 6th seal is before the 7th trump but it describes the second coming. Certainly there aren't two second comings so one must be action where the other is information. I believe the seals only give information about trumpet events. Thus we see a glimpse of the second coming from the unsaved's perspective in the 6th seal but that event doesn't actually happen when that seal is opened. Just like the second coming described in the gospels also doesn't mean the second coming happened in those times, but it was merely a glimpse of the future event.

That does seem quite sound. I also have thought the same thing. There is a few verses that don't quite seem to fit though, looking at it again. This is AFTER.

Revelation 7:2
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The sealing is, as far as I knew, for the tribulation, to protect some people. In fact it is specifically those 144,000 Jews that witness in the tribulation! Therefore, Jesus could not have returned to earth yet. So what could the sixth seal possibly be referring to if not the second coming? This is a mystery.

Since we're on that issue, I might as well try to offer a possibility, or at least a few thoughts.

Here is the sixth seal

Revelation 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The only other time I recall stars falling is when Satan is cast down with his angels. That is presumably just before the tribulation.

There is a great earthquake that shakes all the world and islands etc. Now what could cause such a thing? A nuclear war maybe. That would also have the leaders and others hiding in shelters and caves etc.
Then the announcement that His wrath had come. I have sided with preachers that I have heard say the whole tribulation is the wrath of God. Therefore a possibility is that this starts the seven years. The verses do not say that Jesus returns here. We have just assumed that because the events here sound like it.

Since it is here that the 144,000 get sealed, (after these things mentioned in the sixth seal) this does make some sense. In fact I am now leaning toward this interpretation.

 

[ewq1938]

That does seem quite sound. I also have thought the same thing. There is a few verses that don't quite seem to fit though, looking at it again. This is AFTER.

Revelation 7:2
And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The sealing is, as far as I knew, for the tribulation, to protect some people. In fact it is specifically those 144,000 Jews that witness in the tribulation! Therefore, Jesus could not have returned to earth yet. So what could the sixth seal possibly be referring to if not the second coming? This is a mystery.

It's referring to the second coming for sure...but it's just a reference not the coming happening when the seal is opened.

Since we're on that issue, I might as well try to offer a possibility, or at least a few thoughts.

Here is the sixth seal

Revelation 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The only other time I recall stars falling is when Satan is cast down with his angels. That is presumably just before the tribulation.

Yet we know the 6th seal is speaking of second coming events. Don't angels come with Jesus? In metaphorical language those angels would be stars falling down from heaven to the Earth. Falling here would not be negative, but just a description of movement from one location to another.

There is a great earthquake that shakes all the world and islands etc. Now what could cause such a thing? A nuclear war maybe. That would also have the leaders and others hiding in shelters and caves etc.

Except those people want the rocks to fall on them so they are not there for safety, "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us"

 

[dad]

It's referring to the second coming for sure...but it's just a reference not the coming happening when the seal is opened.

Whatever it is a reference to, after it happens the 144,000 are sealed.

Yet we know the 6th seal is speaking of second coming events. Don't angels come with Jesus? In metaphorical language those angels would be stars falling down from heaven to the Earth. Falling here would not be negative, but just a description of movement from one location to another.

Now that's a stretch. Satan and a third of the stars will fall, that we know.

Except those people want the rocks to fall on them so they are not there for safety, "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us"

Right, they are scared stitless. Scared to death. Remember that when Jesus returns He will face untold multitudes that are not hiding, but by this time want to fight Him openly! What is scaring them is that they recognize that nothing like this has ever happened and that this must be the end time for real...the wrath of God. People can tell mountains to fall on them all they like, they know that speaking does not make that happen!

Unless you think that the witnesses from the 12 tribes are sealed after Jesus returns to earth (ridiculous idea) you may need to adjust your ideas also.

 

[ewq1938]

Now that's a stretch. Satan and a third of the stars will fall, that we know.

That happens long before the second coming so the only stars falling on the day Christ returns are his own angels, and again, not falling in the sinful sense. I've been making sense this whole time...maybe I am right on this one also.