Thoughting again!....oh no, is that allowed?
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
A theophany is a physical manifestation of God in an human form. The angel of the Lord appeared for the purpose of man to see an image, since God is invisible and so God himself spoke through this manifestation as in the burning bush as in other visitations as well.
Examine this verse. God is speaking, the angel is just a manifestation of Yahweh.
“‘Look, I am about to send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, because he will not forgive your transgression, for my name is in him. But if you listen attentively to his voice and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes.” —Exodus 23:20–22
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Angels and prophets speak the words of God, even using the 1st person, but are not God. It gets confusing sometimes.
Regarding the burning bush, I was wondering about the pillar of cloud during the day and fire at night the led the Hebrews out of Israel. Was that also a theophany but not God himself?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Don't agree with me when you don't understand what I am saying.
A theophany or Christophany is not the same as an angel, like Michael or Gabriel. A visitation by an angel, of which there may be several hundred million btw, is not the same as a visitation by the Lord Himself, manifesting himself in appearance as an angel. The differentiation is in the phrase, "angel of the Lord". When the Lord speaks, it is not Grabriel or any other angel.
"And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night." Exodus
So is the Lord a cloud or fire? No, He is not an angel either.
While I am on the subject, think of this theophany if you saw this image and heard God speak. Wouldn't one look at his face and think, this what God looks like, what He sounds like, His face would be imprinted in your mind. But then if Gabriel visited you, he looks and sounds different, wouldn't you get confused? Or if anytime any angel appeared to someone, they may now down thinking it was God. The angel would correct this person if they bowed down to him. Yet with an actually visitation from The Lord, He would say, TAKE OFF YOU SANDALS, YOU ARE ON HOLY GROUND. And The LORD would receive worship.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You do make it hard to agree with you.
Based on my quote above ...
... I have no idea how what you wrote relates to my post above. It's like you are being pendantic about theophany. How about if you respond to my point, how Judges 2 is an example of Angels and prophets speak the words of God, even using the 1st person, but are not God. It gets confusing sometimes.
NayborBear
Active Member
I'll agree with ya that there are "reasons."
Yet, I'll disagree as to the reasons being very good! Very Acceptable, or "agreeably consensual" in an "eyes half open" (normal, so as avoid too much controversy) apostisetic "man church" sorta way. Led by blind, or willingly blind shepherds into a/the ditch. Which never gets to this point for the sake of the God and Father of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, for those who faithfully(?) assemble!
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I agree with you that angels and prophets spoke God's word, but that was not what I was trying to convey.
You agreed with my post as if you understood it, then went into angels and prophets speak the word of God but are not God. I was trying to distinguish the difference between a theophany and a real angel, like Michael. God appeared to Moses manifesting Himself as an angel and spoke directly to Moses. A real angel speaks what God tells him to speak, but it is not God's voice. That's all, just wanted to clear it up.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It is what I am trying to convey.
(I'm not sure I'm buying into the idea that God is manifesting Himself as an angel.)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Not if the Archangel is not an angel at all. No, we can't all just agree. I realize ecumenism is the order of the day, but we can't all be one on some of these and other finer points, and even some of the (much) larger issues. There will always be a small number who will follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, according to the dictates of their consciences, and regardless of popular opinion. Remember you heard this on this day: All who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, whether it be mild and verbal, as is done here, or severely with pseudo-righteous indignation. :)
Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
(Acts 5:35-39)
(Acts 5:35-39)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
How would a person who doesn't understand you know that he doesn't and therefore should not agree with you? How absurd
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
And here we go...
"You don't agree with me; therefore you don't believe God is God and the Bible is the inspired word of God."
It's kind of a sickness with you, isn't it?
The Truth According To kcnalp
"Not if the Archangel is not an angel at all."
What in scripture would lead one to believe that?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I recall some believing Archangel Michael is actually Jesus. But that doesn't hold to scripture.
Whom did you quote?
If you want to call defending the Bible a sickness that's your problem. You can't defend YOUR doctrines so you use personal insults. Jesus is my Savior. If you choose Michael for your savior that's your problem. A VERY big problem! Jesus is my God. If Michael is your god that's your problem.
Acts 4:10-12 (NKJV)
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
Michael isn't mentioned.
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If we are willing to trade pride for love.Can't we disagree with one another without throwing barbs at one another?
Much love!
NayborBear
Active Member
It sounds fairly obvious to me (anyways), that you have not "experienced" such a theophany or christophany, (trying to glean the definitions of these 50 cent words from you're describing 'em), or you wouldn't be talking like you are. You would know the difference/s!
Just as is described by Jesus: "The sheep know MY voice!" There would be no asking! There would be no looking at, or for His face! There would be no confusion!
There would be just you and He! With you being like a dead man such as were the guards at Jesus' tomb when the stone was rolled away. Or, like Daniel was when he was so hard pressed in restraining his bowels, when in the Holy presence of God!
As you view your flesh body melting like so much candle wax spreading across the floor. As your heart and spirit are in His hand. But, there is no fear at this point! None!
The fear comes shortly after the beginning of this "experience", when this "tsunami of love" starts coming unto/into you. And just keeps cutting through you like a hot knife through butter. At first is quite enjoyable! But? when this tsunami keeps growing higher and deeper, (kinda like Jonah before the great fish rescue) and every thought you thought could "keep until the grave" gets blown away? It gets very scary!
As far as Angels are concerned? To me, anyways, they all have the same voice or voices.
Which is why, to "turn a phrase" of the democrats: "vote early....vote often!"
"Test the spirit/s early.....test the spirits often!"
But, we do agree that Angel/s as well as the Gift of the Holy Spirit, will warn you concerning worshiping them!
But as far as God telling one to take off ones' shoes as one is standing on Holy Ground?
No worries! God has that detail covered! :)
And then comes the "educational" parts, and exercises.
After spending $500.00 on a coupla Moody home school courses?
What must have been an Angel sent by God delivers me this message!
"You want them to teach you?
"Or Me?"
Revelation 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
And yet? After some almost 40 years of this? I'm still a work in progress!
Hebrews 10:3
It is a frightful and reverent thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
IOW? If/when God calls ya? The sooner ya answer Him? The better off we all shall be! :)
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
You are right, He is not. The angel of the Lord is a manifestation not of Him, just of an angel for us to see
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