This Makes More Sense To Me Now

[Charlie24]

"next to hell" is misleading so is using "compartment". Hades is far from Abraham's bosom and not merely compartments next to each other. Also, a person who is saved is saved, not needing anything else. All the OT saints were saved and in heaven the moment they died.

This is what the Greek means, it does not directly mean heaven as many think.

It's an enclosure, compartment, whatever!

Strong's Concordance
paradeisos: a park, a garden, a paradise
Original Word: παράδεισος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paradeisos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ad'-i-sos)
Definition: a park, a garden, a paradise
Usage: Paradise.
HELPS Word-studies
3857 parádeisos – an ancient Persian word meaning "enclosure, garden, park."

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie,

That is certainly the way that time-bound people are likely to see it, but as it is written "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"--meaning there is no chronology of time with God or Paradise. God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever" and the confusion here is understanding the transition between the created world of time, with eternity.

This is why things considered yet to be future are even written in [past] tense. Just as we "were" crucified with Christ, none of these events are actually chronologically in order as they are perceived to be from the world's perspective--as they are of God and not of the world.

I don't agree with theories, I get my information from the Scripture.

 

[ScottA]

I don't agree with theories, I get my information from the Scripture.

Not a theory. Agreement is not required. Scripture is from God as I quoted, and so is what I have told you, as it is also written even if not understood.

 

[Charlie24]

Not a theory. Agreement is not required. Scripture is from God, and so is what I have told you, as it is also written even if not understood.

Yes, Scott, and in that Scripture of God you will find the answers, if God has given that answer.

Not in your theories of what you think it should be. That is the wisdom of men that lead us off course.

 

[ScottA]

Yes, Scott, and in that Scripture of God you will find the answers, if God has given that answer.

Not in your theories of what you think it should be. That is the wisdom of men that lead us off course.

I said it is not a theory, but from God.

Strike two.

 

[Charlie24]

I said it is not a theory, but from God.

Strike two.

Strike three, you can count me out!

 

[ScottA]

Strike three, you can count me out!

Done

 

[Timtofly]

I know, I threw in some humor in there.
He implied that these horns were shofars and obviously the last one would then be blown by a human. I know people interpret the last trumpet differently and either assign it to the Feast of Trumpets last blast on earth, likely in Jerusalem or as some mysterious separate "Trump of God" that is not in any series of calls at all. Why would it be the last if it wasn't part of a series?
What we do have in the Book of Revelation is a series of Trumpets blown by angels that release judgments on earth - what a coincidence. Do you think maybe scripture was pointing us in this directiontion? I see the correlation, don't you? And as I explained, many things happen at this 7th Trumpet blast. Just my two cents, I won't debate it further, take it or leave it and believe what you will.

Do those 7 Trumpets release judgments, or are they calling Israel to assembly, and events happen during that assembly?

 

[quietthinker]

Now let me see, I'll have the false ones on my right and the really false ones on my left, ie at the recycle depot!
Anybody wants to trumpet you'll have to get past the tin pot orchestra first!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Do those 7 Trumpets release judgments, or are they calling Israel to assembly, and events happen during that assembly?

Both. It is a time of judgment and warning. They are the final alarm warnings. When disaster strikes, people get sober and flood the churches right. Well, they will flood the Synagogues.

 

[Timtofly]

ya, wandering in the wilderness can be vexing, huh
what did you go out into the wilderness to see?

best of luck with that though, honestly

“beheading” surely has an allegorical meaning too, fwiw
that is really quite apt for this particular line of discussion imo…not sure how to illustrate the beheaded here w/o offending someone though :)

When you can come up with some symbolic phrase that explains literal beheadings let us know.

 

[Timtofly]

That's strange, because Christ said in Luke 16 that the angels carried Lazarus into Abraham's bosom, and there was a great gulf between him and the rich man who was in hell. That one could not pass from one to the other.

Abraham's bosom was in a compartment next to hell where all the saved were kept because even though saved, Christ had not won the victory over Satan and man still belonged to Satan.

This is where the thief on the Cross went. It was called Paradise.

When Paul spoke of Himself being called by the Spirit into Paradise, this is many years after Christ had released the captives in Paradise and they ascended into heaven. Paradise was now in heaven, with I suppose that space being an enlargement of hell.

It happened at the Cross, not years later when Paul wrote it on a piece of paper. Paradise was never Abraham's bosom. That is the point. After Jesus said, "It is finished", Paradise was opened to Adam's redeemed flesh. The thief was the first post Cross soul entering Paradise instead of Abraham's bosom. The thief was redeemed at the point of the Atonement, then he died and his soul entered a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Abraham's bosom was already empty when he died. What is the saying, "Pass Abraham's bosom collect the resurrection, and land in Paradise"? The thief asked the right question at the right time.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Paradise was never Abraham's bosom

Jesus described two locations in Luke 16:23-31, one Hades and the other Paradise, both existing throughout the Old Testament times.
This was not a parable. If it was, there would not be specifice names of familiar people used..Why describe spiritual locations to mean symbolically something else if they did not exist? What moral truth would be gained from describing something abstract? Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptures of fictional abstract territories. These places existed. All those of faith went to Paradise. The wicked inbelievers went to Hades, a dark cave/ dungeon in the underworld.
Abraham's bosom is just that. He was there and would greet you with a hug, his arm around you and so you were at his bosom. I am sure you will meet him some day and you will be at his bosom.
* correction, Paradise is just a synonym for Heaven and that is where Abraham was.

 

[ewq1938]

Heaven was open to those in Paradise when Jesus died. He brought them all to heaven.

Abraham's bosom is heaven, just another name for it. Jesus did not move any of the saved dead because they did not need to move anywhere.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Except that…there are 2 harvests in Rev…oh wait…yes, makes sense to me.

Three Harvests in the Harvest chapter, Rev. 14. The Wheat is the 144,000 they had to go through tribulation in order to be harvested because wheat has to be crushed before it can be sifted. Barley does not have to be crushed thus we the Church are the First fruits of the Barley, that an be both Jews and Gentiles, Israel are the wheat, though some Gentiles also had to go through the tribulation in order to repent, but the 144,000 will be the first-fruits of the Father. (the 144,000 = 5 million). The Grapes are the wicked as seen in Rev. 14:17-20. In Rev. 14:14 we get a FLASHBACK unto the Pre Trib Rapture, Jesus harvested the Barley (his bride).

Rev. 1 is an overview, and about Jesus' Glory. Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age. Rev. 4:1 the Rapture, everything after that the HEREAFTER. Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in heaven before Jesus opens the Seals. Rev. 6 is the Seals which only prophecy of God's coming wrath. Rev. 7 is the 1290 where the Jews Flee Judea, just before the Wrath falls. Rev. 8 is the Wrath's start, the Asteroid that hits is the first four Trumps. Rev. 9 is Trumps 6 and 7 or Woes 1 and 2. Rev. 16 (we can say 15:16 go together) is the 7 Vials which is the 3rd Woe. That ends the 70th week, Jesus returns in Rev. 16:19. All the other books are THIBGS THAT HAPPENED during chapters 8, 9 and 16, during God's Wrath AND the Anti-Christs reign which both cover the exact same 42 month time frame.

So, Rev. 10 is prose about the 7 Trumps being 7 Thunders. Rev. 11 is all about the Two-witnesses 1260 days of their Ministry. Rev. 12 is about the Dragon and his AC chasing Israel for 1260 days. Rev. 13 is about the Beasts rise and 42 month rule. Rev. 14 is The Harvest Chapter. Rev. 17 is Gid explaining the Harlot as ALL False Religion of All Time, and that Apollyon is the Scarlet Colored Beast who arises from the pit that HE WAS........WAS NOT........YET IS. Rev. 18 is about God's punishment that falls upon the Whole World (Babylon) who God says gets His Great Wrath in Revelation 16:19, and as we see in the 6th Vial, those who come against God are the Kings of the Whole World. Its not one city, its not Babylon, Jerusalem, nor Rome, Babel means confusion, what could be more apt a name fir this blind world the Babylon the Great, I mean they fight against their own loving Creator, no one has ever been so deceived and confused.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh man, I can’t even read that. I got confused with only Israel being the wheat and it just became more and more muddled in my brain after that. Sorry. I tried.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When you can come up with some symbolic phrase that explains literal beheadings let us know.

Yes! And use two or three verses to support it!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Oh man, I can’t even read that. I got confused with only Israel being the wheat and it just became more and more muddled in my brain after that. Sorry. I tried.

So 1, 2, 3 is hard to understand?

Barley comes first, followed by the Wheat and Grapes. Its complex, but its not rocket science sister. Hosea 4:6 says my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. We can't get knowledge by saying, well that's over my head. Its simple stuff tbh, its only hard when we don't put forth effort to obtain knowledge.

God Bless

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Abraham's bosom is heaven, just another name for it. Jesus did not move any of the saved dead because they did not need to move anywhere.

Actually, I suspected that, just wasn't sure. Paradise is just another name for Heaven, I'll have to retract that assumption. For some reason I thought no one would be allowed in heaven until Christ's death and resurrection, THEN His blood was imputed to all the OT prophets and people of faith. But Enoch was taken up to be with the Lord. And Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mt. off Transfiguration. They we evidently in heaven as well. And the person caught up to the third heaven, Paradise. Makes more sense.
And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows how he was caught up into Paradise (the third heaven) and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 12 Cor. 12:3-4
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matt.17:3
>>So Jesus' blood was imputed to ,the OT faithful outside of our time domain. There wasn't a division of Hades separated by a gulf - Heaven is separated by a gulf from Hades. Ot people did not wait. In that spiritual realm, it was made manifest already ... I guess.
Then the question of where Christ went when He died has been a sort of myth I guess?
"(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?"Eph. 4:9 was interpreted as Him descending to Hades. Likely this was just a reference of Him descending from Heaven and emptying Himself into the womb of Mary.
But then again, He stated to the thief, that they would be in Paradise today. That's where they went, to Heaven
Now about Abraham's bosom. A bosom was considered a lap, close to the chest of, as if a person gave you a hug, had there arm around you, as we see here: "Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved." John 13:23
Thanks for that correction.

 

[WPM]

Abraham's bosom is heaven, just another name for it. Jesus did not move any of the saved dead because they did not need to move anywhere.

Not true! It was in Hades. It was emptied when Jesus defeated sin, the grave, satan and Hades 2000 years ago. Paradise is heaven.