This Makes More Sense To Me Now

[Truth7t7]

The first resurrection is the dead in Christ, which is Israel because they died before salvation had come.

The second resurrection is the living in Christ, who are those saved before they die, by being born again.

"First the Jew and also the Greek."

"First the natural, and afterward the spiritual."

The First Resurrection, On The Last Day Explained

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[quietthinker]

Maybe it does also have a spiritual meaning. If it does, I haven’t seen it. But I think it also happens literally. There have been some literal fulfillment’s on earth of prophecy you know.

There is a crowd which uses the text, 'rightly dividing the word of truth' regularly, and like other crowds with their particular mantra's, it is exploited to underpin a particular angle, nevertheless the text is pertinent. We are asked to be careful how we hear; recognising and identifying the literal and the metaphorical when it applies.

 

[bbyrd009]

No one goes around saying, hmm…”none of my bones are broken” or “I count all my bones” must mean bones are “kumquats” and broken must mean “whoozits.”

well, you kinda lost me there, but i would say that "bones" has no obv allegory, whereas "beheaded" does

Everyone accepts quite fine that it happened literally.

not sure what "it" is here, sorry

but do they now? Iow if "everyone" is doing...that, might be time to um pause and reflect

Meh, what I went out there to see has been sidetracked to what God wants from me in that wilderness.

has it now :)

you know what Yah wants now, huh? I would ask what that might be, as an aside

 

[stunnedbygrace]

well, you kinda lost me there, but i would say that "bones" has no obv allegory, whereas "beheaded" does

not sure what "it" is here, sorry

but do they now? Iow if "everyone" is doing...that, might be time to um pause and reflect
has it now :)

you know what Yah wants now, huh? I would ask what that might be, as an aside

He wants my undivided trust in Him and no trust in my flesh or the flesh of others or trust in institutions or 401k’s. We are Israel in the desert having our trust tested in order to grow it. That’s what He wants from me. That’s all.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

well, you kinda lost me there, but i would say that "bones" has no obv allegory, whereas "beheaded" does

I don’t see an allegory in either. I understand you do, I just don’t. I think the men are literally beheaded. That doesn’t mean I don’t think there’s absolutely no (I personally wouldn’t use allegory) spiritual meaning too, it just means I don’t see one. But then, I’m certainly not allseeing.

 

[ScottA]

The First Resurrection, On The Last Day Explained

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You have quoted well, but explained poorly.

If I asked you to explain when the last day is...you have given no answer. So I will answer:

First of all, it should be understood that there is a chronology of time in the world, but not with God (as He is "the same yesterday, today, and forever"). So part of what is to be understood is that chronology of the world, but more importantly, that non-chronological reality of God--which is rather where salvation resides.

The scriptures then define when the "Last Day" is, as taking place at "the time of the End." By definition, the scriptures--leaving no room for error, name Jesus as "The First and the Last" and also "the Beginning and the End", naming His time as "the time of the End." Which is to say...His day, is the Last Day.

The entire matter of salvation begins and ends with Christ, and as He said at the End--His End, "It is finished." From that point on salvation is according to the non-chronological terms of God, while the world has and continues to tick away from "the Beginning" to "the End." Which of course, has evaded everyone since "the Beginning", without "the renewing of your mind." Nonetheless, these things are true...that is unless you want to believe that God is not "the same yesterday, today, and forever", in which case, you are on your own. Believe as you will. But I caution you--it is not your will that salvation resides in, but God's.

Thus, what Jesus said is true: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Mark 13:30
​

Still, how is one to comprehend the past and the future of the whole world as all occurring in the space of that one generation--that generation to whom Jesus identified, saying, "You (not those in the distant future) will see" these things, "shortly take place?" How indeed? Again, I will answer...not because it is mine to say, but because it is written:

These events would all appear to occur at once, and it is true...only not in the way that it is commonly believed. Most not seeing or hearing that these things did already occur assume that they are yet to come--not actually "in Christ", but at the end of time--not in His time, but in their time. Which is kinda true too, because the clock stops for us all on our own last day...and "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord"--which cannot be reconciled as true for every person living in different times over thousands of years--unless we take to heart what is actually written: That just as "by the one man’s offense many died"...but not seemingly at one time, but rather just as Paul also wrote of when Christ returns, saying "but each one in his own order"--so too is the life and death of all people who all come into and also leave this world in their own time, beginning to end.

Thus, the Beginning and the End (Christ) of all the world and all people was then manifest in the time of the End, that is, in the time of Jesus. Therefore it is not written that we each go to the cross "in our own order" or time--but that we "were crucified with Christ" in His time. Which if it were to be written also of those who went before, it would have said, "will be crucified with Christ", but it was instead only promised, then written for our clarification, that we "by no means precede those who are asleep." But as it was, they came first. Which is another matter also not fully understood:

Matthew 19:30
But many who are first will be last, and the last first. (Jesus speaking)
​

Which is to say that the first to come into the world are not the first to come into the kingdom of God, but rather the born again of the spirit of God are first, and Israel who was first to come into the world, for the most part came before salvation had come, and therefore being first, they are last to enter the kingdom of God, but actually "precede" us in coming into the presence of the Lord in death, for having died first.

​

All of which is either believed by understanding that the events of God are not according to the chronology of the world, but rather the world according to God who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever"--or not believed. In which case, the "renewing of your mind" will have to wait until you "see Him as He is." For many, that means not until death.

 

[Truth7t7]

You have quoted well, but explained poorly.

If I asked you to explain when the last day is...you have given no answer. So I will answer:

​

​

(The Last Day)

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don’t see an allegory in either. I understand you do, I just don’t. I think the men are literally beheaded. That doesn’t mean I don’t think there’s absolutely no (I personally wouldn’t use allegory) spiritual meaning too, it just means I don’t see one. But then, I’m certainly not allseeing.

yeh…you are still in the mode where you seek facts—if youll allow me—and fwiw i suggest that they are going to prolly become less and less satisfying, as you move on to impressions

 

[ewq1938]

I don’t see an allegory in either. I understand you do, I just don’t. I think the men are literally beheaded.

That's the normal and natural way to interpret it...not changing it into something else.

 

[Charlie24]

A thread about that would be something I would read. :)

I'll have to go back and pinpoint the OT verses to do that. I don't remember where they are but I can find them.

I might start that thread if I get the time, it would take some research to put it together, haven't discussed this in many years.

 

[ScottA]

​

(The Last Day)

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Yes, this is what happens in the heavens when Jesus returns coming "but each one in his own order" (each one in their of time in history), which has occurred "in Christ"...in the same way as "we were crucified with Christ." Which is to say, that salvation being of God who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever", and actually has no worldly chronology as it would appear in the world, all things have occurred in Christ in His time--meaning retroactively for us who come after Him, and ex-ante (before the event) for those who came before.

None of which will make any sense unless one first believes that we "were" crucified with Christ, and that "just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men"--not at the same time "but each on in his own order"; and also that having gone to the Father, if Jesus has come "into" anyone since then--He has returned as He said--that is "in the flesh" (theirs) to whom He gave to be His body.

 

[Timtofly]

Lazarus died and the angels carried him into Abraham's bosom, which was another name for Paradise.

Paradise is not another name for Abraham's bosom. Paradise is that heavenly city Abraham looked for where the tree of life was. Abraham's bosom was the valley of the shadow of death called sleep that was separated from sheol the place of the lost. Abraham's bosom was below. Paradise is called the third heaven by Paul. It is a city with the name that means Garden. After the Millennium reign of Christ, Paradise will be called New Jerusalem and descend from heaven to earth.

Paradise was banned until the Cross. That is why souls were waiting in Abraham's bosom. At the Cross they were resurrected, given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They ascended to Paradise with Jesus on Sunday morning from all over the earth. Many were in Jerusalem. But not all. Abraham was not buried in Jerusalem. Abraham came out of his tomb in Hebron 19 miles away. Do you not think others were in their graves even further away? When the Second Coming happens all of the redeemed on earth are not expected to fly to Jerusalem to be there. We don't even know when the Second Coming will happen. Don't you think God can gather us from all over the earth?

The OT redeemed were the firstfruits of Christ released out of Abraham's bosom and taken to Paradise where the tree of life is. Lazarus was resurrected a few days earlier as proof that Jesus was telling the truth. That was the moment of resurrection, not thousands of years later.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, this is what happens in the heavens when Jesus returns coming "but each one in his own order" (each one in their of time in history), which has occurred "in Christ"...in the same way as "we were crucified with Christ." Which is to say, that salvation being of God who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever", and actually has no worldly chronology as it would appear in the world, all things have occurred in Christ in His time--meaning retroactively for us who come after Him, and ex-ante (before the event) for those who came before.

None of which will make any sense unless one first believes that we "were" crucified with Christ, and that "just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men"--not at the same time "but each on in his own order"; and also that having gone to the Father, if Jesus has come "into" anyone since then--He has returned as He said--that is "in the flesh" (theirs) to whom He gave to be His body.

Your claim in response is "False" the fire isn't isolated to "Heaven" as you suggest, this physical earth will be dissolved by the Lords fire in judgement at his return (Gone) (The End)

 

[ScottA]

Your claim in response is "False" the fire isn't isolated to "Heaven" as you suggest, this physical earth will be dissolved by the Lords fire in judgement at his return (Gone) (The End)

That is not what I said.

What I said was that it all occurs during Jesus' time (past tense)--meaning, even the dissolving of this world and earth. It is at that time that "old things have passed away, old things have become new"...just as it is also true that "we were crucified with Christ."

Which is why I also explained how all things are retroactive or ex-ante regarding all the times of this world coming to fulfillment "in Christ" in His time.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is not what I said.

What I said was that it all occurs during Jesus' time (past tense)--meaning, even the dissolving of this world and earth. It is at that time that "old things have passed away, old things have become new"...just as it is also true that "we were crucified with Christ."

Which is why I also explained how all things are retroactive or ex-ante regarding all the times of this world coming to fulfillment "in Christ" in His time.

Once again your claims in response are "False"

The Lord's literal fire will dissolve this physical earth in final judgement at his return (Gone) (The End) just as post #107 teaches

Your historical symbolic allegory in denial of the future literal seen is "laughable", your complete theology is based around symbolic allegory, in denial of the literal as per my observations

Did Jesus die on the cross of Calvary and shed his blood, or was that symbolic allegory also?

 

[Timtofly]

It says they fought over moses’ body. Is your thought that he was taken rather than died? Deuteronomy says Moses died and was buried in Moab but no one knew exactly where, just opposite a valley, and that he died at 120 years of age.
I think (which is my own musings), that the angel buried him.

But I think there is sufficient scripture that he did actually die.

Moses wrote that he died before he left for the wilderness. Does not mean what he wrote happened. He wanted them to think he was dead, and told them not to go looking for him. Obviously Moses probably expected to die. He had disobeyed God. But his disobedience was not a death sentence. He could not enter the Promised Land.

Is claiming death, literally avoiding the fact he could not join them, because He disobeyed? Should he have written, "I get to go to Paradise sooner than expected, because I disobeyed God"? Moses wrote his own epitaph, so they would not go looking for him. They went any way and found nothing.

Moses was in perfect health. It was not that he had to die. It was that he had no more purpose on earth, and God took him to Paradise. But it was not with a view like Elijah was given for a witness. Moses disobeyed God. EIijah did not. But Elisha did have to keep following Elijah until the end. Moses told them not to follow him until the end. Had Moses obeyed God, it might have been totally different. He may have served in the Promised Land another 40 years, and taken up to Heaven in view of many. A blessing instead of a disgrace because he disobeyed God in one command given to him.

 

[Charlie24]

Paradise is not another name for Abraham's bosom. Paradise is that heavenly city Abraham looked for where the tree of life was. Abraham's bosom was the valley of the shadow of death called sleep that was separated from sheol the place of the lost. Abraham's bosom was below. Paradise is called the third heaven by Paul. It is a city with the name that means Garden. After the Millennium reign of Christ, Paradise will be called New Jerusalem and descend from heaven to earth.

Paradise was banned until the Cross. That is why souls were waiting in Abraham's bosom. At the Cross they were resurrected, given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They ascended to Paradise with Jesus on Sunday morning from all over the earth. Many were in Jerusalem. But not all. Abraham was not buried in Jerusalem. Abraham came out of his tomb in Hebron 19 miles away. Do you not think others were in their graves even further away? When the Second Coming happens all of the redeemed on earth are not expected to fly to Jerusalem to be there. We don't even know when the Second Coming will happen. Don't you think God can gather us from all over the earth?

The OT redeemed were the firstfruits of Christ released out of Abraham's bosom and taken to Paradise where the tree of life is. Lazarus was resurrected a few days earlier as proof that Jesus was telling the truth. That was the moment of resurrection, not thousands of years later.

That's strange, because Christ said in Luke 16 that the angels carried Lazarus into Abraham's bosom, and there was a great gulf between him and the rich man who was in hell. That one could not pass from one to the other.

Abraham's bosom was in a compartment next to hell where all the saved were kept because even though saved, Christ had not won the victory over Satan and man still belonged to Satan.

This is where the thief on the Cross went. It was called Paradise.

When Paul spoke of Himself being called by the Spirit into Paradise, this is many years after Christ had released the captives in Paradise and they ascended into heaven. Paradise was now in heaven, with I suppose that space being an enlargement of hell.

 

[ScottA]

Once again your claims in response are "False"

The Lord's literal fire will dissolve this physical earth in final judgement at his return (Gone) (The End) just as post #107 teaches

Your historical symbolic allegory in denial of the future literal seen is "laughable", your complete theology is based around symbolic allegory, in denial of the literal as per my observations

Did Jesus die on the cross of Calvary and shed his blood, or was that symbolic allegory also?

You are struggling with the transition of the times of this world with eternity. That's completely understandable, as it has eluded all people of all time until now--however must come to pass, just as it is written. Thank you for being thorough, as it has all been thoroughly misunderstood for all this time.

You also struggle with reality and what is "literal" and what is not. God is literal--but you respond as if the world is literal. But, no, the world and people were merely "created" "in our image", just as it is written. Even Christ was an "image" created, as it is written, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

But you don't need to get or understand any of this--you can just live and die, as people have done since the beginning. However, again, as it is written, "knowledge shall increase" and "He will lead you unto all truth." Take it or leave it--but this is what is foretold of our time.

So, yes, your worldly "literal" understanding is indeed "laughable"...but it need not be. Indeed, what is true with God is "false" in worldly terms.

In which case, you should go back and read again what I have explained about the things of God being timeless and the things of this world being chronological, and what is written in [past] tense that you may eventually see and understand that it has been clearly stated all this time--that is, that all things of this world were created for and by Jesus as a revelation of all that is in Him that was made manifest in the smaller sense during His time of becoming flesh and dwelling among us, and that it is all actually, literally "finished" just as He said.

And, yes, fire from heaven is literal. But the world does not "pass" away, but is and has always been "passing" away...with every person who also passes away--who, yes, are "image"-ry, just as they were "created." All of which is written...so deny it all and die if you will--but reality resides rather in God's will, not ours.

 

[ScottA]

That's strange, because Christ said in Luke 16 that the angels carried Lazarus into Abraham's bosom, and there was a great gulf between him and the rich man who was in hell. That one could not pass from one to the other.

Abraham's bosom was in a compartment next to hell where all the saved were kept because even though saved, Christ had not won the victory over Satan and man still belonged to Satan.

This is where the thief on the Cross went. It was called Paradise.

When Paul spoke of Himself being called by the Spirit into Paradise, this is many years after Christ had released the captives in Paradise and they ascended into heaven. Paradise was now in heaven, with I suppose that space being an enlargement of hell.

Charlie,

That is certainly the way that time-bound people are likely to see it, but as it is written "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"--meaning there is no chronology of time with God or Paradise. God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever" and the confusion here is understanding the transition between the created world of time, with eternity.

This is why things considered yet to be future are even written in [past] tense. Just as we "were" crucified with Christ, none of these events are actually chronologically in order as they are perceived to be from the world's perspective--as they are of God and not of the world.

 

[ewq1938]

Abraham's bosom was in a compartment next to hell where all the saved were kept

"next to hell" is misleading so is using "compartment". Hades is far from Abraham's bosom and not merely compartments next to each other. Also, a person who is saved is saved, not needing anything else. All the OT saints were saved and in heaven the moment they died.