How could they live in their bodies of flesh after being martyred for their faith? They lived and reigned with Christ in their bodies of flesh during this time symbolized a thousand years BEFORE they were martyred for their faith! Once our flesh breathes its last, man will not have a body of flesh again before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. NONE shall be bodily resurrected before the last trumpet sounds that there should be TIME no longer.
They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament
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How could they live in their bodies of flesh after being martyred for their faith? They lived and reigned with Christ in their bodies of flesh during this time symbolized a thousand years BEFORE they were martyred for their faith! Once our flesh breathes its last, man will not have a body of flesh again before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. NONE shall be bodily resurrected before the last trumpet sounds that there should be TIME no longer.
If we are not with Christ in heaven a spiritual body of believers there, why did Christ say NOTHING shall separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord? Your doctrine has us separated from the love of God we have through Christ once we physically die. I believe Christ when He tells us whether we live or die we are eternally/forevermore with Him. Christ does not mislead us, when we are absent from the physical body we shall be present with the Lord in heaven a spiritual body of believers there, still living souls. Just as in life we were a physical, spiritual body of believers while alive in our bodies of flesh or living souls.
Correct! Only our spirit returns to God in heaven AFTER our physical flesh has died. It has always been the purpose of Christ to give eternal/everlasting life to whosoever lives and believes in Him. They shall NEVER DIE!
So do I, and, and we are not living in our bodies (zao) when we have died.
The only body of believers the New Testament calls "Christ's body" are those who are on earth in their bodies and belong to Him. New Jerusalem is only seen coming down from God out of heaven after the resurrection of the bodies of believers when the 7th trumpet sounds.
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Where it says they shall never die Jesus had just said whoever dies (when the body dies) shall live in the body (zao) and whoever lives in the body (zao) shall never die. He is talking about the resurrection - and denying this also rips what Jesus said from the context of the passage, which was Lazarus' death and resurrection.
It's to do with eternal life in the body.
@rwb It's not my doctrine. It's God's gospel, written in the scriptures, and you are lying when you say or imply that I said or implied the human spirit will not be with Christ when the body dies.
Spirit is spirit. There is only one human, comprised of body, soul and spirit.
You need to produce the scripture which calls the family of spirits in Christ who are in heaven after having died, "the body of Christ".
After death, and before the resurrection of the body
M ankind was created to live on the created earth, in a created body. We were not created to "go to heaven when we die". That's not God'...
zaoislife.blogspot.com
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Jesus isn't describing Sheol or Hades. He is telling a parable, employing Jewish mythology concerning Hades.
Sheol is not a place where people walk around. Sheol is just another word for the grave. It's nothing but dirt.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Jesus said it himself. I believe what Jesus said. "TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise." Where were they THAT DAY if not the tomb? After his resurrection he told Mary, "I have NOT YET ascended to my Father."
When someone speaks in the first person, they imply no distinction between body and spirit. When Jesus told Mary that he didn't ascend to the Father, he made no distinction between his body and his spirit. If Zoe were to tell me that she went to the store, she isn't saying that she went to the store in spirit only.
Think about it logically. Jesus was bodily in the tomb for three nights. She came to the tomb hoping to find someone to roll away the stone so that she might anoint his body with oil and spices. She sees a man, whom she supposed was the gardener. It turned out to be Jesus instead.
If your version were true, Jesus stated the obvious when he said, "I have not ascended to the Father." Duh, Captain Obvious! You just got up from a dirt nap, and you say you have not ascended yet? We all know that Jesus. Tell us something new.
No, that isn't what happened at all. Mary could see with her own eyes that Jesus hadn't gone to be with the Father yet. Jesus is giving her NEW information concerning his ascension, i.e., he hasn't ascended yet. He didn't go anywhere because he was dead.
I didn't say anything about the kingdom that would lead anyone to conclude that Jesus came into his kingdom THAT DAY.
Jesus is not talking about ruling in Paradise. He will take David's throne on Mt. Zion, which is located on Earth, in Israel, in Jerusalem.
Where does the Bible say that? Where did you get your ideas about life and death?
They cannot have lived and reigned with Christ in the flesh during TIME, which a thousand years symbolizes after they have physically died. Because NONE shall be bodily resurrected until the last/seventh trumpet sounds that TIME shall be no longer! The only way these martyred saints could have lived and reigned with Christ in TIME, symbolized a thousand years, is if they lived and reigned with Him in TIME, symbolized a thousand years BEFORE they were martyred! They were alive in their bodies of flesh BEFORE they were beheaded, and they shall not be physically alive again before an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds, and TIME shall be no longer!!!
EXACTLY! No, we are not living in our bodies of flesh after we have physically died! That's what I've been repeatedly telling you, but you seem to want life in the mortal flesh after death anyway! These martyred saints have lived and reigned with Christ while they were physically alive. Since they died in faith, only their body of flesh died, and their spirit returned to God ALIVE in heaven a living soul.
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This is what we refer to as reading our doctrine into the text. Where does John say anything about a body in this text? He doesn't! He writes only "yet shall he live:" John is showing us how he can see (Rev 20) LIFE after physical death for all who die in faith. They still have life (zao) even after physical death, because "whosoever liveth and believeth in ME shall NEVER die." Death of our flesh does not mean we are without life, because our spirit through the Spirit of Christ within gives us LIFE EVERNALLY and we shall NEVER die!
John 11:25-26 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
What would be the purpose for our spirit to be with Christ after our flesh is dead if it is without LIFE? There is no logic in believing our spirit remains with Christ after physical death if we are not spiritually alive!
We are a physical, spiritual body of Christ as long as we are physically alive. When our body dies and returns to dust, we are still a spiritual body of believers of Christ, without physical form until we receive our resurrected immortal bodies of flesh when the last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer.
1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Philippians 3:20-21 (KJV) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
It is not a parable. It is not called a parable. It is not even implied as a parable. Jesus was not using Jewish mythology. Certainly you must think Jusus is stupid, and has to rely on human wisdom and theology? If it was not true, it would have been satire. This claim about the account of Lazarus is like saying 3rd grade little league baseball players are the source of NFL game plays.
Besides mythology is not a parable. Mythology is just human guesswork. Jesus did not say the place was called Abraham's bosom. That is just a nickname, I use and obviously most readers understand. Jesus said Lazarus was resting on Abraham's breast or bosom, as if being comforted by a Patriarch spokesman. Not that Lazarus was in a place called Abraham's bosom. Perhaps it should be called Job's Place or Noah's Ark?
Still not sure why people go out of their way to deny the very Word of God, and insist we understand Jewish mythology instead? Then some want to say Paradise and the tree of life is down in sheol as well.
Sheol is not just a hole in the earth, but then again, you don't accept the soul is eternal and went into sheol prior to the death burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact in Revelation 20, sheol is emptied as if a holding cell of the dead, and is also placed in the LOF. Is Revelation 20 a parable?
You have the paradigm backwards. You think the body in the grave is eternal, and obviously all other humans as well, as they make sure that body can return, and soul ceases to exist. God says the soul is eternal and the body ceases to exist as it returns to basic molecules and recycled into creation.
Even Martha with an OT Jewish mindset claimed the body of Lazarus would come to life at the resurrection of the last day, but then told Jesus, not today, because that same body, had been dead for 4 days and was decaying rotten flesh that stinketh. Funny how some people think one thing, and then don't want this event to happen because they are too practical.
That's another false doctrine based on (your own) total eisegetical insertion of (your own) opinion into a text which states that there will be no more delay - no more time given for the beast - and the 7th trumpet will sound at its appointed time.
All the doctrine you build on the basis of your own opinions and private interpretations of the scripture such as you do above, becomes false doctrine.
The worst part of your false doctrine though is your teaching of a kingdom of Christ in heaven comprised of spirits, ostensibly with "spiritual bodies".
The human spirit without the human body does not have another body. Spirit is spirit. Remember that we are not the Creator - God is - so think of GOD'S creation, not your own imagination.
God created humans, and humans are comprised of body, soul, and spirit.
The only body your soul now has, is your body.
The only body your spirit now has, is your body.
When your body dies, your spirit does not get "another" body. Your spirit will go be with Christ who is in the bosom of God the Father, because He is in you and you are in Him through faith in Him,
and you will be longing for the resurrection of your body so that you can function as a whole human being again - because your human spirit has no limbs without your human body.
The human spirit is spirit, and the only body your spirit will ever have, is your body - either the one you are in now, or the one that will be raised from the dead when Christ returns (future-tense raising from death). All the doctrine you build on the basis of your own opinions and private interpretations of the scripture such as you do above, becomes false doctrine.
The worst part of your false doctrine though is your teaching of a kingdom of Christ in heaven comprised of spirits, ostensibly with "spiritual bodies".
The human spirit without the human body does not have another body. Spirit is spirit. Remember that we are not the Creator - God is - so think of GOD'S creation, not your own imagination.
God created humans, and humans are comprised of body, soul, and spirit.
The only body your soul now has, is your body.
The only body your spirit now has, is your body.
When your body dies, your spirit does not get "another" body. Your spirit will go be with Christ who is in the bosom of God the Father, because He is in you and you are in Him through faith in Him,
and you will be longing for the resurrection of your body so that you can function as a whole human being again - because your human spirit has no limbs without your human body.
That's the way God created Adam and Eve, and you are sorely mistaken in your belief that the Kingdom of heaven is a Kingdom of Christ in heaven that is being built and populated by human spirits without human bodies (or human spirits with other "bodies", i.e the "spirit bodies" that only exist in your imagination).
The Kingdom of heaven - Christ's Kingdom - is now on the earth that God created, in that He dwells in His body, and the Kingdom of heaven/Christ is to be on the earth that God created, when He makes all things new.
1 Corinthians 12
27 And you are the body of Christ, and members in part.
28 And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
Ephesians 4
11 And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
The body of Christ is on earth.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians.
15 For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Question: Does Paul call say that those who had fallen asleep are alive in Christ in the above verses? Or does Paul call them the dead in Christ?
Do you want to correct Paul's theology too?
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; all of you are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
What Paul means by "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." can and must only be interpreted by the context of what he is talking about - he is not talking about "life in heaven after death" but the resurrection of the body when Christ returns.
We are not "raised from the dead" into 'spiritual bodies' when we are born of the Spirit of God. Eternal life is imparted to us through the quickening of (God's) Spirit and our spirits become united with Christ - where we will be in spirit after we die, until the resurrection of the dead when the dead body is raised a spiritual body so that our spirits can be reunited with our bodies and we can function as human beings again - the human beings that God created us to be.
God created humans to live on earth and humans are comprised of body, soul and spirit. God has not changed His purpose for creating Adam. Death (the body dying and Adam's spirit no longer existing on earth in his body) is the enemy of God.
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John's gospel was written in Greek, and the Greek word zao implies "in the body". The words "in the body" are included in the Greek word used, which is zao. Your (false) doctrine removes it:
John 6:39-40, 44
And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing
but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
1 Corinthians 15:35-36
"But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come? Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies."
1 Corinthians 15:44:
"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."
The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
"For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive in the body [záō] and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead [νεκρός nekrós] in Christ shall rise [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] first [πρῶτον prōton]. Then we who are alive in the body [záō] and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."
John 11:21-27
-- Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now, whatever You will ask of God, God will give You. Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again [anístēmi]. Martha said to Him, I know that he shall rise again [anístēmi] in the resurrection of the body [anástasis] at the last day.
Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection of the body [anástasis] and the (eternal) life [zōḗ]! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live in the body [záō]. And whoever lives in the body [záō] AND believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
She said to Him, Yes, Lord, I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who has come into the world. --
You doctrine tells a lie about the creation of God and the gospel of God by creating an imaginary body for the human spirit that is another body, separate from the only body God created humans with.
The only soul you now have and will ever have lives in your body (soma).
The only spirit you now have and will ever have lives in your body (soma).
When your body dies, your spirit does not come out of it and go to Christ with another body or in another body. Everlasting life implies everlasting life in the body. Why do you think our Savior came, took our sin upon Himself, experienced death for us, experienced the quickening of His dead body for us, and rose again from the dead?
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You need to agree with God and with what God created before you can understand this.
Death - the death of the body is the enemy of God because God created humans, and humans are comprised of body, soul and spirit. The only body your soul now has, is your body that God created, that you inherited from Adam. The only body your spirit now has is your body.
1 Cor.15:44 is not saying the dead body will be raised as a spirit with a body (and Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead human body in that passage, not about the human spirit).
When your body dies you spirit will no longer be united with your body and your spirit is spirit, it does not have any other body, and you will be longing for the day of the resurrection of your body.
You do not even understand why the resurrection of the body is so important to God, because you doctrine has changed the gospel.
You betray the fact that you don't even understand that when Paul speaks about the natural body being raised a spiritual body, he is talking about the human body being raised, not the spirit being "raised". It's your body that will be raised a spiritual body. Your spirit is not even going to be raised when your body is raised. It does not need to be "raised" if you are in Christ, because it was born of God in the day that God imparted eternal life to you - eternal life which means eternal life to be experienced in the body. God created you to be body, soul and spirit. Adam's separation from the Spirit of God led to his death in the body.
The reason you were dead in sins before God quickened you when your spirit was born of God, is because your body was dead in sin (and still is):
-- If Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit of Christ is life because of Christ's righteousness. But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you. -- Romans 8:10-11
Your spirit does not have "another" body except the body you now have that is dead and will die.
The separation of the spirit and body is death, and your "eternal life in a spirit with another body" is gnostic doctrine. It's not what God created, and your gnostic interpretation of the scriptures causes you to read a lot of things into passages of scripture that are not there - such as reading Paul's statement in 1 Cor.15:44 as "it is sown a natural body BUT will be raised a spirit body. i.e "a spirit with another body."
Note: No Christian scholars who translate any of the main and accepted English translations of the Bible will agree with your interpretation of 1 Cor.15:44. They will all tell you that Paul is talking about the same human body (soma) that died being raised as a spiritual human body (soma) - the subject of 1 Cor.15:44 is the human body (soma), NOT the human spirit or "a" human spirit-body (pneuma-soma) that somehow comes from a dead human body.
God created humans body, soul and spirit. Not body, soul, spirit, and "body-of-the-spirit". The human spirit is spirit, and lives in the human body. Death (which is the death of the body) is the enemy of God.
The reason you were dead in sins before God quickened you when your spirit was born of God, is because your body was dead in sin (and still is):
-- If Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit of Christ is life because of Christ's righteousness. But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you. -- Romans 8:10-11
Your spirit does not have "another" body except the body you now have that is dead and will die.
The separation of the spirit and body is death, and your "eternal life in a spirit with another body" is gnostic doctrine. It's not what God created, and your gnostic interpretation of the scriptures causes you to read a lot of things into passages of scripture that are not there - such as reading Paul's statement in 1 Cor.15:44 as "it is sown a natural body BUT will be raised a spirit body. i.e "a spirit with another body."
Note: No Christian scholars who translate any of the main and accepted English translations of the Bible will agree with your interpretation of 1 Cor.15:44. They will all tell you that Paul is talking about the same human body (soma) that died being raised as a spiritual human body (soma) - the subject of 1 Cor.15:44 is the human body (soma), NOT the human spirit or "a" human spirit-body (pneuma-soma) that somehow comes from a dead human body.
God created humans body, soul and spirit. Not body, soul, spirit, and "body-of-the-spirit". The human spirit is spirit, and lives in the human body. Death (which is the death of the body) is the enemy of God.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
A parable is a story intended to make an important point. In this case, Jesus told the Pharisees a fable intended to teach a moral lesson. We recognize it to be a fable based on the fact that it employs fabulous language.
The idea that Jesus was teaching human wisdom doesn't follow from his use of Hebrew mythology to tell a fable.
It is a fable, a tale with a moral lesson. There is nothing satirical about it.
How so?
You are mistaken to think that a parable needs to have a particular format. It doesn't. But all of Jesus' parables are fictional stories. And some fictional stories, such as fables, teach a moral lesson. I maintain that the story of Lazarus is a fable, teaching that the present life is the time to do business with God, and that the Law of Moses is fair warning.
Josephus wrote about Hades and the Hebrew belief in "Abraham's bosom," which had two compartments for the righteous and unrighteous dead. Jesus borrowed elements from that myth in order to tell a fable about a rich man and Lazarus. The fable is a fictional story. Jesus borrowed images from Hebrew mythology to create his fable.
I haven't denied the word of God. Jesus tells a fable to teach a moral principle. That fable is recorded in Luke 16, which is the word of God. But why don't you provide scripture to back up YOUR claims?
I reviewed all the places in the Bible where the term is used. And in every case, it refers to a room in the dirt motel. It is nothing more than the grave.
There is no Biblical evidence to support the idea that soul is eternal. The concept of an eternal soul came from Greek Philosophy -- not the Bible.
In Revelation 20 it says that Hades gave up the dead; it also says that the sea gave up the dead. Hades is dirt and the Sea is water. Those in Hades have been granted a dirt burial, while those in the Sea were granted a burial at sea. Neither Hades nor the Sea are places where people get up and walk around.
You might provide scripture where God actually says that the soul is eternal.
What's the difference between there shall be no more delay as some manuscripts have it or there shall be time no longer as the KJV has it? It still says when the seventh trumpet begins to sound the mystery that had been hidden shall be known. The mystery, as I've already shown you is that Gentiles have completed the Kingdom of God. That means the Kingdom of God is complete, and is the only reason that Satan is loosed for his little season.
The Gospel of the Kingdom of God is sent out unto all the nations of the world that through Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit creation might be saved. Again when Christ says the life we have in Him from the moment we believe is NEVER ENDING....I believe Him!
Now, after explaining that zao means to have life, you add it "implies" in the body. Life is life whether physical or spiritual, it is still life. And when there is life (soul) it's because the spirit LIVES on after the flesh of believers has breathed its last.
Again, this simply confirms what I've been saying all along! When the flesh dies, it will not again become a physical body before an hour coming when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer and there shall be no more delay! That's why you cannot have bodies of flesh seen physically alive after death during this imagined period of one thousand years of more time. NONE who have physically died shall have a body of flesh again until time is no more and there is no longer delay!
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