There is only one true church

[Jude Thaddeus]

Can you understand that when you say: "SOLA SCRIPTURA does not work because we do not all agree...."

It's self evident that sola scriptura does not work because of the endless division that it caused. Calvin disagreed with Luther and the division hasn't stopped since. 40,000 sola scripturist denominations? Think about it.

That is the SAME as saying: "LORD Jesus Christ does not work because we do not all agree..."

Understand........???

A non-sequitur fallacy. It's not the same. The Lord Jesus Christ was not a sola scripturist. Even the notorious anti-Catholic James White admits the Apostles were not sola scripturists. Sola scriptura was invented by Martin Luther because he was angry with the pope and was mentally ill.
Protestantism bases all of its teachings on a myth that is not found in the Bible.

A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura

Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a “standard of truth”—even the preeminent one—but not in a sense that rules out the binding authority of authentic apostolic Tradition and the Church. The Bible doesn’t teach that.

www.catholic.com

You will automatically dismiss or ignore this link because you are afraid of it.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

NO SUCH THING AS "OFFICE OF POPE"

CHRIST CHOSE DISCIPLES.

FROM THOSE DISCIPLES CHRIST APPOINTED HIS APOSTLES.

see post #203.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please re-examine:

Fact #1 = Sola Scriptura is the Way the Truth and the Life = "the Word that was God from the Beginning"

Fact #1 has never changed and remains as the Foundation of Truth

FACT #2 = People CHOOSE to reject(unbelief) scripture for the following reasons:
a.) heart hardened thru sin
b.) RELIGION = RCC, SAD, Pre-Trib, and on and on it goes
c.) Fear of man = Religion/Social/Political
d.) Partiality / Respect of Persons
e.) lacking the Holy Spirit

These are irrefutable Facts from God's Mouth to our ears..........................................

Can't remember if I replied to the above....sorry.

You say your list is from God's mouth to our ears:

OK

Show me in the NT where it states that we are to depend only on Scripture.
It doesn't exist.

And how do you explain this verse:

Mark 7:6-13
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

7‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’

8“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

We are told in scripture (2 Thesassalians 2:15) that we are to keep Tradition...
correct...
BUT
Not when it conflicts with biblical teachings.

PURGATORY AND INDULGENCES are not biblical teachings.
They were NEVER taught in the early church but were developed over time and thus they are null.

What we hear from God with our ears must be biblical....
not a dogma, doctrine or discipline invented by man.

 

[GodsGrace]

see post #203.

Is this Pope following church Tradition?
Happily, some Bishops have stood up to him.
Not sure how much good that's doing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you understand that when you say: "SOLA SCRIPTURA does not work because we do not all agree...."

That is the SAME as saying: "LORD Jesus Christ does not work because we do not all agree..."

Understand........???

Well David in NJ
You make a good point.
Maybe Jesus failed?
Maybe HE should have written the "books"?
Men are fallible and He left it up to men.

Now,,,,if sola scriptura worked we would all agree on everything.
Is OSAS correct?
Is Free Will correct?
Is Confession to a Bishop correct?
Does God choose us or do we choose God?
Does God call everyone or only His chosen?

So, if you have a definitive answer to the above,
then YES, I agree with sola scriptura.

If you cannot definitely reply to the above because not all
Christian Theologians can agree with each other as to the meaning
of some scripture....

THEN NO
Sola Scriptura does NOT work
and will never work.

What about this is difficult to understand?

 

[amigo de christo]

You're right Amigo....
I misspoke!
In my second sentence, which you said I should rewrite,
what I meant is that most Christians believe that the NT is THE WORD OF GOD....
BUT
they either don't follow it or understand it to some degree.

Thanks for pointing that out.

And, of course, I do believe that the bible does not contradict itself.
I cry this out to the reformed but they don't hear.

The new testament was written letters of some of the apostels to the church . It is chalked full
of spirit inspired truth . In fact in only a spot or two paul makes mention where its his opinion rather than
Thus says the Lord .
It concerns the remaining single part
and the not putting away the unbeliever part .
There he says , not the LORD but i say
the reason . Did you know that by the law the jews would put away such a spouse .
However paul was making the point who knows if we might win them and thus
if they do not desire to depart do not put them away .
Its not bad at all that he wrote that . its meant to make the beleiver realize
there is the chance they can win the spouse .
Now as far as where both peter and paul spoke concerning what they call the HOLY SCRIPS
that was actually what was already recorded in torah and the prophets .
HOWEVER what they wrote was INSPIRED by GOD . thus it too should be highly learned by the church .
The problem with many in the reformed camp
is that they too are still stuck in certain traditions and beleifs of men
which do contradict even the very bible they try so hard to defend .
Not all are bad . i have seen some really do a great job of speaking truth
and leaving out the wrong traditions and beliefs . But that is very very rare indeed .
Now as for the CC , the vatican . THERE is no way i can support such a place .
It aint cause i hate catholics nor do i hate protestants .
IT just because much of what contradicts the actual scrips is found within their doctrine .
And both groups will make a serious defense to justify it rather than to sit and listen and repent .
THIS is also why i have long cried for all to get back into the bible .
The bible in no part contradicts itself .
NOW it may seem like paul and james were at odds concerning faith and what it entials .
THEY WERE NOT .
listen to what paul wrote to timothy .
proving faith without works is dead .
HE who does not provide for his own and specially for those of his own household has denied THE FAITH
and is worse than an infidel .
And james knew darn well it was faith that saves , he just identied the difference between lip service faith
verses actual faith in the heart that do produce good works .

 

[amigo de christo]

Well David in NJ
You make a good point.
Maybe Jesus failed?
Maybe HE should have written the "books"?
Men are fallible and He left it up to men.

Now,,,,if sola scriptura worked we would all agree on everything.
Is OSAS correct?
Is Free Will correct?
Is Confession to a Bishop correct?
Does God choose us or do we choose God?
Does God call everyone or only His chosen?

So, if you have a definitive answer to the above,
then YES, I agree with sola scriptura.

If you cannot definitely reply to the above because not all
Christian Theologians can agree with each other as to the meaning
of some scripture....

THEN NO
Sola Scriptura does NOT work
and will never work.

What about this is difficult to understand?

Sola script does work . .
It just dont work on those whose hearts are not truly AFTER GOD .
but i am telling us all it does work .
And watch this example .
When i say sola scripta , i have often been told well we have to pray and do good works too
and witness . I KNOW . and the BIBLE SAYS THAT .
my point is to get them back into the bible for themselves .

 

[amigo de christo]

Is this Pope following church Tradition?
Happily, some Bishops have stood up to him.
Not sure how much good that's doing.

The problem with many is that even a lot of those early ones who said a truth like sola scripta
WERE NOT EVEN DOING so themselves . rather they were already twisting it
and having men to trust in them not in the actual scrips my friend . I have seen this way too much .
But again if one will get into the bible they will and can learn for themselves .
Just because the problem is man and that many have twisted stuff
dont mean the fact one DOES need to get into the bible for themselves becomes null.
Its a lot like telling a man look there has been an outbreak of ecoli
and then saying YOU CANT EAT FOOD due to the fact some are not properly cooking their food
and are getting ecoli .
SEe what i mean my freind ..
You are not being attacked i am simply trying to help you see something .
Thus when they try and use the bad examples of men who taught sola scripta
to imply WELL you see , we cannot read it for ourselves , That makes no sense at all .
As far as this pope , he might be the most deceptive we have seen in a long time
but he aint the only deceptive pope . My advice is to leave that system and not look back .
The reason many protestants even fall for this particular pope
is because he is one slick fellow and is pumping out a mess of mixture
which in truth , has already in part been pumped out by earlier men unto the protestant realm .
THEY made their hearts ready for the BIG LIE my friend through messages of tolerance unity and a false version of love .
NOW in short time this pope has done what others before it have tried to do but were not fully able too .
THIS ONE IS MERGING THE RELIGOINS VERY FAST .
because as i said in part they have long been made ready for this global message .
He has done in such a short time what no politician on earth or the religoins
were able to do . MY GOODNESS HE IS MERGING THEM . BUT IT IS NOT UNDER GOD my friend .
ITS under another and its to give this Harlot the power over all religoins through what they think is LOVE and of GOD .
The politicians in part are also working along side of this agenda . As have many men within the christain realm
and the false religoin realm , the secular realm , the realm of this earth . I am telling us
and pleading for us all to start over in the bible for ourselves .

 

[amigo de christo]

Well David in NJ
You make a good point.
Maybe Jesus failed?
Maybe HE should have written the "books"?
Men are fallible and He left it up to men.

Now,,,,if sola scriptura worked we would all agree on everything.
Is OSAS correct?
Is Free Will correct?
Is Confession to a Bishop correct?
Does God choose us or do we choose God?
Does God call everyone or only His chosen?

So, if you have a definitive answer to the above,
then YES, I agree with sola scriptura.

If you cannot definitely reply to the above because not all
Christian Theologians can agree with each other as to the meaning
of some scripture....

THEN NO
Sola Scriptura does NOT work
and will never work.

What about this is difficult to understand?

Watch this my friend .
I bet you see the problem with the JW camp .
I mean we know they are not speaking ALL truth and are speaking deceptoins .
BUT when i speak to them
they told me we will beleive this when our watchtower says so .
they bellow a truth concerning the RCC . THEY say the catholics sit under this system
wont really read the bible and if they do its all under what their organization says it means .
WELL GUESS what THEY DOING THE SAME THING
Guess what so do many within the protestant realm itself .
Yet had folks read the scrips for themselves they would have in time left said places .
The reason , the real reason that the men in power long sold
the idea to its own , whatever group it was , that they cannot really learn the bible
unless they sit and learn it from them or etc , IT was for power and control .
Rome knew it was losing power and control and influence over those who were beginning
to get the scrips for themselves .
NOW of course its true that some of these men were fast to set up themselves and to lead .
WHEN THey themselves , most not all , had not really spent the time to learn well enough the scrips .

AND a lot of them desired power too . YOU can see this in how they began to set up their own churches .
Thus their heart was never really right . There is a reason why
men and YES I SAY MEN , who are gonna lead the church , NEED TO REALLY KNOW the TRUTH , the scrips
Before they even dare stand to teach .
AND the other elders before choosing them , MUST have well known it too
and they must be tested by biblical knowledge itself and their actions . NOT through denomintal teachings
LIKE all these schools of theologies do today . THEY TEACH the bible , what parts of it they do teach
to these new upcoming leaders but do so THROUGH THEIR DENOMINATIAL lens .
and as a result every generation has gotten worse and worse . THE BIBLE is more and more being replaced
by the traditions of men . Now once one starts down a path of error
GUESS what , UNLESS one repents of said error , THEY GET WORSE , NOT BETTER . SO GOES THE CHURCHES TOO .

 

[GodsGrace]

The new testament was written letters of some of the apostels to the church . It is chalked full
of spirit inspired truth . In fact in only a spot or two paul makes mention where its his opinion rather than
Thus says the Lord .
It concerns the remaining single part
and the not putting away the unbeliever part .
There he says , not the LORD but i say
the reason . Did you know that by the law the jews would put away such a spouse .
However paul was making the point who knows if we might win them and thus
if they do not desire to depart do not put them away .
Its not bad at all that he wrote that . its meant to make the beleiver realize
there is the chance they can win the spouse .
Now as far as where both peter and paul spoke concerning what they call the HOLY SCRIPS
that was actually what was already recorded in torah and the prophets .
HOWEVER what they wrote was INSPIRED by GOD . thus it too should be highly learned by the church .
The problem with many in the reformed camp
is that they too are still stuck in certain traditions and beleifs of men
which do contradict even the very bible they try so hard to defend .
Not all are bad . i have seen some really do a great job of speaking truth
and leaving out the wrong traditions and beliefs . But that is very very rare indeed .
Now as for the CC , the vatican . THERE is no way i can support such a place .
It aint cause i hate catholics nor do i hate protestants .
IT just because much of what contradicts the actual scrips is found within their doctrine .
And both groups will make a serious defense to justify it rather than to sit and listen and repent .
THIS is also why i have long cried for all to get back into the bible .
The bible in no part contradicts itself .
NOW it may seem like paul and james were at odds concerning faith and what it entials .
THEY WERE NOT .
listen to what paul wrote to timothy .
proving faith without works is dead .
HE who does not provide for his own and specially for those of his own household has denied THE FAITH
and is worse than an infidel .
And james knew darn well it was faith that saves , he just identied the difference between lip service faith
verses actual faith in the heart that do produce good works .

Not a lot for me to say Amigo....
I agree with you.
Some will say that James was a legalist and Paul was for grace and not law.
So Jesus also had Law, but the Law of Christ and NOT the Law of Moses.
So we get THE LAW mixed up.
Then we hear that works are unrighteous and are as dirty rags when all
Jesus spoke of was DOING GOOD and changing our behavior...
how else to tell the difference between a saved and unsaved person??

Then we hear that Jesus taught ideas that Paul did not teach...IOW,
the pit Jesus and Paul against each other...
when they AGREED with each other and there's no difference.
Paul stated in every letter of his that we are to properly BEHAVE AS Christians,
perfectly mirroring what Jesus taught.

And if it were any different then we should listen to JESUS and not Paul,
but, happily, they DID agree and this is as it should be.

BUT, and that's a big BUT....
Sola Scriptura will not work because theologians can't even agree on what some
scripture means.
The Qu'ran works because what it states is VERY CLEAR and there can be no
disgreement.

Jesus did not come to write a book but to change behavior, so we have to rely on what
the Apostles taught.

And this is MY solution. I like to know what the Apostles taught and what those they taught in
turn also taught. I can find no other solution.

 

[GodsGrace]

Watch this my friend .
I bet you see the problem with the JW camp .
I mean we know they are not speaking ALL truth and are speaking deceptoins .
BUT when i speak to them
they told me we will beleive this when our watchtower says so .
they bellow a truth concerning the RCC . THEY say the catholics sit under this system
wont really read the bible and if they do its all under what their organization says it means .
WELL GUESS what THEY DOING THE SAME THING

LOL
I have JWs friends, a married couple, I've told them this many times.
But they INSIST that they follow the bible because this is what they're told
until their brain is washed and they can't even think for themselves anmore!

Guess what so do many within the protestant realm itself .
Yet had folks read the scrips for themselves they would have in time left said places .
The reason , the real reason that the men in power long sold
the idea to its own , whatever group it was , that they cannot really learn the bible
unless they sit and learn it from them or etc , IT was for power and control .

But we also have to say that each denomination has real theologians that study the scriptures and
come with their ideas.
THIS is my whole Point.....
The ideas are always different.

The Nazarene church, which I've attended, believes (or at least they used to) that you could be sanctified 100% in this life because they follow John Wesley.
The Assembly of God church believes you must speak in tongues or you don't have the Holy Spirit.
Both these ideas can be found in the NT ! This is the problem. Anything can be proven by some verse or other.

The CC....well, I DO believe it's the original church, but it's made so many changes and added to the bible that it has gone off
the rails too - and hundreds of years ago - and longer.

Rome knew it was losing power and control and influence over those who were beginning
to get the scrips for themselves .
NOW of course its true that some of these men were fast to set up themselves and to lead .
WHEN THey themselves , most not all , had not really spent the time to learn well enough the scrips .

AND a lot of them desired power too . YOU can see this in how they began to set up their own churches .
Thus their heart was never really right . There is a reason why
men and YES I SAY MEN , who are gonna lead the church , NEED TO REALLY KNOW the TRUTH , the scrips
Before they even dare stand to teach .
AND the other elders before choosing them , MUST have well known it too
and they must be tested by biblical knowledge itself and their actions . NOT through denomintal teachings
LIKE all these schools of theologies do today . THEY TEACH the bible , what parts of it they do teach
to these new upcoming leaders but do so THROUGH THEIR DENOMINATIAL lens .

Well, what you wish is just not going to happen because of the very reason you state.
Each wants power...
man is power-hungry.
No denomination will give in to another.
Each one wants to be right.

and as a result every generation has gotten worse and worse . THE BIBLE is more and more being replaced
by the traditions of men . Now once one starts down a path of error
GUESS what , UNLESS one repents of said error , THEY GET WORSE , NOT BETTER . SO GOES THE CHURCHES TOO .

Agreed.

 

[amigo de christo]

Not a lot for me to say Amigo....
I agree with you.
Some will say that James was a legalist and Paul was for grace and not law.
So Jesus also had Law, but the Law of Christ and NOT the Law of Moses.
So we get THE LAW mixed up.
Then we hear that works are unrighteous and are as dirty rags when all
Jesus spoke of was DOING GOOD and changing our behavior...
how else to tell the difference between a saved and unsaved person??

Then we hear that Jesus taught ideas that Paul did not teach...IOW,
the pit Jesus and Paul against each other...
when they AGREED with each other and there's no difference.
Paul stated in every letter of his that we are to properly BEHAVE AS Christians,
perfectly mirroring what Jesus taught.

And if it were any different then we should listen to JESUS and not Paul,
but, happily, they DID agree and this is as it should be.

BUT, and that's a big BUT....
Sola Scriptura will not work because theologians can't even agree on what some
scripture means.
The Qu'ran works because what it states is VERY CLEAR and there can be no
disgreement.

Jesus did not come to write a book but to change behavior, so we have to rely on what
the Apostles taught.

And this is MY solution. I like to know what the Apostles taught and what those they taught in
turn also taught. I can find no other solution.

Theologians DONT agree . You are spot on rigth about that .
But i never said pick a theologian now did i . I have long warned out against the scholars
and the theologians . Look most of them are gonna do as they do and i cannot stop them or convince them .
BUT i can tell you all to get back into the bible for YOU .
We must do it my friend . There is no organization wherein leaven has not entered into it .
There might be a church or two , a place here and there who are doing what is right .
But i am tell us our organizations are all under the power and influence of the united religoins etc
and its under the influence of you know who , the harlot . they have made inroads into mainstream big time .
They do so with certain bibles even , with foot notes , with pastoral books and etc
even through sycrnated sounds and praise , I know that seems wild huh .
They have come in and specially at or near two thousand with a goal .
And man they have attained a lot of that goal .
what was the goal . TO UNITE the world and its religoins to merge as one under a concept sold as love .
and to the religoins as a concept sold as LOVE and of GOD . IT is merging them .
Now you might say , BUT they dont agree with all their doctrines . YOU WOULD BE RIGHT .
HOWEVER to them doctrine matters less and less and this other form of love seems to be the FOCUS more and more .
THEY GONNA UNITE THIS WORLD under a lie . AND the ones who wont conform .
ones like me . GUESS what we get called . DONT THINK christain , THINK HATER OF HUMANITY
One who is dangerous , one who does not KNOW love , does not know love or GOD . MARK my words
friend . THIS IS ALL A SET UP .

 

[amigo de christo]

LOL
I have JWs friends, a married couple, I've told them this many times.
But they INSIST that they follow the bible because this is what they're told
until their brain is washed and they can't even think for themselves anmore!



But we also have to say that each denomination has real theologians that study the scriptures and
come with their ideas.
THIS is my whole Point.....
The ideas are always different.

The Nazarene church, which I've attended, believes (or at least they used to) that you could be sanctified 100% in this life because they follow John Wesley.
The Assembly of God church believes you must speak in tongues or you don't have the Holy Spirit.
Both these ideas can be found in the NT ! This is the problem. Anything can be proven by some verse or other.

The CC....well, I DO believe it's the original church, but it's made so many changes and added to the bible that it has gone off
the rails too - and hundreds of years ago - and longer.



Well, what you wish is just not going to happen because of the very reason you state.
Each wants power...
man is power-hungry.
No denomination will give in to another.
Each one wants to be right.


Agreed.

IF you think each denomination will not give in
THEN WHY IS IT the sold out prosperity gospel preachers already have . YOU KNOW THEY LOVE MONEY
and power . But they gave in . how so , WHO THEY TRYING TO UNITE US WITH AGAIN . THE RCC .
You forgot something . PROMISES have been made my friend
YOu see these sold out leaders know something . THIS WORLD is changing
and in order to stay atop , YOU GOTS TO CHANGE with it .
THEY KNOW who holds the real power and sway over a lot of places too . THEY have went home to her
and she has promised them a seat at the table of the new love religoin . ITS ALL a sham .
THEY DO desire power and control , THEY JUST KNOW they wont have it
UNLESS THEY AGREE and CONFORM . they doing this my friend . THEY have been
The liberal realm has been as well as the conservative realm .
YOU SEE There really are elites in this world as well as in the churches who do desire power and control
AND BY GOLLY THEY KNOW HOW TO GET IT TOO .
decieve the masses , merge them as one , YOU GET A LOT more money out of that deal too .
And a lot more power and control. But just make sure to give the people the idea
its they who hold the power and control . JUST wait till the digital system cometh home .
THEN we gonna see exactly where this so called we love you humanity and do this for you
REALLY LED THEM TOO . Cause it aint gonna be for humanity its gonna be for them .
Watch out . we are being decieved big time .

 

[amigo de christo]

LOL
I have JWs friends, a married couple, I've told them this many times.
But they INSIST that they follow the bible because this is what they're told
until their brain is washed and they can't even think for themselves anmore!



But we also have to say that each denomination has real theologians that study the scriptures and
come with their ideas.
THIS is my whole Point.....
The ideas are always different.

The Nazarene church, which I've attended, believes (or at least they used to) that you could be sanctified 100% in this life because they follow John Wesley.
The Assembly of God church believes you must speak in tongues or you don't have the Holy Spirit.
Both these ideas can be found in the NT ! This is the problem. Anything can be proven by some verse or other.

The CC....well, I DO believe it's the original church, but it's made so many changes and added to the bible that it has gone off
the rails too - and hundreds of years ago - and longer.



Well, what you wish is just not going to happen because of the very reason you state.
Each wants power...
man is power-hungry.
No denomination will give in to another.
Each one wants to be right.


Agreed.

see i knew you seen it . but do you see this within the CC too .
It has done the same thing for centuries my freind.
Those whose desire is really for power and control and do as they do to be seen of men and get the priase of men
THEY KNOW how to change and adapt to changes in the world . THEY WILL DO IT
to keep themselves in power , to keep themselves getting money .
As does a chameleon change its color to blend in , SO TOO DO THEY . watchout .
Time we trust in GOD not in men . we might love the people but we dont trust in man .
TRUST IN GOD , in HIS DOCTRINE . in the doctrine they left to us .
Test all men . No man is infallible nor is any mans teaching infallible . BUT GOD IS , <HIS CHRIST IS
HIS DOCTRINE IS . yes let us learn the bible well .

 

[GodsGrace]

see i knew you seen it . but do you see this within the CC too .
It has done the same thing for centuries my freind.
Those whose desire is really for power and control and do as they do to be seen of men and get the priase of men
THEY KNOW how to change and adapt to changes in the world . THEY WILL DO IT
to keep themselves in power , to keep themselves getting money .
As does a chameleon change its color to blend in , SO TOO DO THEY . watchout .
Time we trust in GOD not in men . we might love the people but we dont trust in man .
TRUST IN GOD , in HIS DOCTRINE . in the doctrine they left to us .
Test all men . No man is infallible nor is any mans teaching infallible . BUT GOD IS , <HIS CHRIST IS
HIS DOCTRINE IS . yes let us learn the bible well .

Must leave for a while...
will say this.
The CC is becoming more and more liberal.
Some are very happy about this and some are not.
If I were to define myself as Catholic (which I do not) then I'd have to
say that I'd be on the conservative side.

Many are leaving the church.
Many church bldgs are abandoned and becoming ruined.
God is still in charge and in the end it's HIS will that will prevail.

The CC has a lot of assets in bldgs, etc.
but the income is now what it used to be.
Men no longer want to be priests and there's a big shortage.
It makes the work of the present ones very difficult and they cannot
really pastor the churches they're given. I know one that has 8 parishes and
soon another one will have FOURTEEN!!

They keep talking about centralization, but the population won't hear of it.
So, it's not as great as you might think it is.
Like I said, God is still in charge.

 

[amigo de christo]

Not a lot for me to say Amigo....
I agree with you.
Some will say that James was a legalist and Paul was for grace and not law.
So Jesus also had Law, but the Law of Christ and NOT the Law of Moses.
So we get THE LAW mixed up.
Then we hear that works are unrighteous and are as dirty rags when all
Jesus spoke of was DOING GOOD and changing our behavior...
how else to tell the difference between a saved and unsaved person??

Then we hear that Jesus taught ideas that Paul did not teach...IOW,
the pit Jesus and Paul against each other...
when they AGREED with each other and there's no difference.
Paul stated in every letter of his that we are to properly BEHAVE AS Christians,
perfectly mirroring what Jesus taught.

And if it were any different then we should listen to JESUS and not Paul,
but, happily, they DID agree and this is as it should be.

BUT, and that's a big BUT....
Sola Scriptura will not work because theologians can't even agree on what some
scripture means.
The Qu'ran works because what it states is VERY CLEAR and there can be no
disgreement.

Jesus did not come to write a book but to change behavior, so we have to rely on what
the Apostles taught.

And this is MY solution. I like to know what the Apostles taught and what those they taught in
turn also taught. I can find no other solution.

Yes indeed the doctrine of paul and other apostles in that bible DID agree with CHRIST .
And when men , specially leaders who ought to big time know better , try and pit doctrine against doctrine
or apostle against apostel , or even apostel against CHRIST . THEN KNOW and UNDERSTAND that
is NO TRUE SEASONED LEADER .
And often its not just in some minor error , ITS A WOLF decked in wool .
YES at times a leader might dissumulate . As did peter and barnabas who got scared
and seperated out the jews and the gentiles . BUT it was short time and paul arrived and corrected it .
THE KEY IS when said leaders out right teach falsehoods , and refuse to repent of said errors .
YOU GOT A BIG PROBLEM IN THE HOUSE . you got you a wolf up there .
Now before anyone criticises me for implying there is no perfect church , I WOULD
agree there is not perfect people , BUT WHEN THE LEADERS DECIEVE you gots a problem .
YOU see any true seasoned leader would correct his memebers , not decieve them .
And if said memeber is saying things like its not our job to correct , its GOD his job
HOW DO YOU THINK , WHO DO YOU THINK worked through the apostels WHO DID CORRECT .
and who works through those still today WHO correct .
Me thinks many folks forget GOD DOES LOOK out for the church , And often it is through MEN who do correct
and even use the ROD at times when necessary . but they say JUDGE NOT , JUDGE NOT .
as though correcting an erring memember is CODNEMNATION against them . NO IT AINT
IF we love WE DO CORRECT . HERE is the one doing the condeming .
IF after the first or second admontion they wont heed , cast out , they are condmened OF THEM OWN SELVES .
ITS THE ONE IN ERROR who wont repent who is the one condeming himself , NOT THE ONE DOING the CORRECTING .

 

[amigo de christo]

Must leave for a while...
will say this.
The CC is becoming more and more liberal.
Some are very happy about this and some are not.
If I were to define myself as Catholic (which I do not) then I'd have to
say that I'd be on the conservative side.

Many are leaving the church.
Many church bldgs are abandoned and becoming ruined.
God is still in charge and in the end it's HIS will that will prevail.

The CC has a lot of assets in bldgs, etc.
but the income is now what it used to be.
Men no longer want to be priests and there's a big shortage.
It makes the work of the present ones very difficult and they cannot
really pastor the churches they're given. I know one that has 8 parishes and
soon another one will have FOURTEEN!!

They keep talking about centralization, but the population won't hear of it.
So, it's not as great as you might think it is.
Like I said, God is still in charge.

even the conservative realm who seems so anti liberal
is under the sway of this liberal agenda to unify the religoins . ITS amongst , as i said
mainstream big time .
YES i do agree GOD is still in charge .
But do remember this . First it was not THE DESIRE OF GOD for any too perish
only THEY WOULD NOT
and secondily that same GOD will do something , allow something to come upon
those who repent not .
Have you ever heard of this .
THEY rejected the love of the truth whereby they might be saved , Thus GOD sent them a strong delusion
to believe a lie and to be damned .
NOW do remember GOD desired good for them , ONLY THEY WOULD NOT .
JUST as JESUS had told the jews , HOW OFTEN would i have gathered you ONLY YE WOULD NOT .
the problem is man , NOT GOD . GOD already did what was necessary
for the peoples to have eternal life , ONLY MOST WONT COME TO THAT SOLUTION that NAME
and if they do use that name , THEY preach another jesus and another gospel and etc .
We are in the last days my friend . NOW i know there is still a remnant and it might
be larger than i think . BUT BELEIVE ME when i say IT IS SMALL compared to the realm of christendom and those within it .
I am sure we will see some repenting and perhaps standing to speak up against the tides of evil
and this false love spell. FOR GOD has always had a remenant that do not bend the knee to the darkness .
We are in an all out war , this war is climaxing too and a very strong delusoin sent under the guise it is love
IS merging many now . Stay in the bible , stay refreshed , be in prayer and TRUST and HOPE IN GOD , IN CHRIST .

 

[Augustin56]

I know that what the CCC teaches can be found in the bible, somehow, or in the ECFs.
It's just that sometimes the verses are stretched a bit to make them fit.



I can't really think of any except for confession.
That certainly changed starting in the beginning.

I think that John 20:23 may be referring to the same situation as in Corinthians which is spoken of by Paul.
A member of that congregation was removed from their midst due to extreme immorality.
Did Paul feel that person should be forgiven and given access to the brotherhood again?

I say THINK because I'm not sure about this.
Confession is mentioned in the writings of the early fathers...
but it was general and in the church of the time (spoken out loud).
The Didache, for example, mentions confessing our sins, but it doesn't say how.
The later Fathers DO state to do so to a Bishop, but this is when the method was already changing.

Anyway, it's a long conversation and even Jesus said that only God (HE) could forgive sins, so I'm left
not absolutely sure it's necessary to confess to a priest.



Replied to above.



Do you think there are some priests that do not believe in purgatory?
Well, you may not like my answer, but there are.
This would make the sacrifice of Jesus unnecessary, no?
1 Corinthians 3 definitely is not about purgatory.
I'll be happy to go over the verses if you like.
The Matthew verse is the only place in the NT where Jesus says anything like this
and it can be understood in different ways.
Jesus spoke many times about important matters.


You know Augustine, I know what indulgences are.
I just don't think the church, any church, could offer indulgences because a saint was spoken to by God.
And, I think the church incorrectly used them for its own reasons ... some of which were to build churches here in
Europe for the glory of God.
I mean, to offer to have someone spend less time in purgatory because someone paid a sum was pretty awful stuff.

Today, no payment, but they still exist.

I just cannot agree.

I appreciate your well thought out response. You seem to be far more intellectually honest and capable than many I've seen on these boards.

The manner in which the Sacrament of Confession has certainly changed, but the basics have not. The basics include the penitent telling the priest what sins they committed, the priest deciding whether those sins should be absolved or not, and then the priest, if he decides, absolving the penitent's sins, through the authority given him. In the early church, sins were said out loud in front of the congregation. Later, it moved to being done more in private. The issue actually has to do with authority. I think authority is the bottom line for many differences between the Catholic Church and non-Catholics. Authority is given, not taken. Christ clearly gave His Godly authority to forgive sins in John 20:23 (read from 20:19, to get a better context). And we can see how the first Christians understood that by the ECF writings, etc. I would say, too, that the Sacraments are all truly confected by Jesus Christ, THROUGH His ministers, the priests. That's why the Church claims that even priests deep in sin can administer the Sacraments. It's not about them.

With regard to some priests not believing what the Church teaches, I think that is without doubt the case. The Church has always had its Judas Iscariots from the very beginning. Remember, we are at war, not between flesh and blood, but between principalities and powers, light and darkness, good and evil. The enemy has angelic intelligence and is a master strategist and tactician. He knows full well that if he can get to one of the shepherds, he can negatively affect a lot of sheep. But that doesn't affect the Church's doctrines, which stand in tact.

 

[GodsGrace]

I appreciate your well thought out response. You seem to be far more intellectually honest and capable than many I've seen on these boards.

The manner in which the Sacrament of Confession has certainly changed, but the basics have not. The basics include the penitent telling the priest what sins they committed, the priest deciding whether those sins should be absolved or not, and then the priest, if he decides, absolving the penitent's sins, through the authority given him. In the early church, sins were said out loud in front of the congregation. Later, it moved to being done more in private. The issue actually has to do with authority. I think authority is the bottom line for many differences between the Catholic Church and non-Catholics. Authority is given, not taken.

This is definitely about authority.
My argument with Protestantism is that anyone can read the NT and make of it what he will.
Actually, I wonder if this is true or if we all just sit under some authority or other.
But, yes, if we can all come to our own truth - then there is no TRUTH.
Truth must be absolute.
Protestantism is a mess.
Who can know what the truth is within that mess?

My niece decided to become Catholic after being raised Protestant.
I was happy to hear this and thought I might be able to do RCIA with her,
which my priest agreed to, but the Bishop had doubts because she doesn't live here
and would be going back to the US. I think he made a mistake for reasons I won't get
into, but whatever...I feel like the church turned someone away. This is the same Bishop who gives
a blessing to the Biker Convention near here ON HIS BIKE, as he's riding along.
I can hardly stand it anymore.

Anyway, I think all churches teach something or other that I have difficulty with.
Now, the church is becoming more lax and I was actually told by a priest away from my home,
(because these already accept me as I am) that I didn't have to accept all dogma or doctrine and still
consider myself a Catholic. Now, I don't agree with that and do not identify myself as Catholic.
So when I read some posters here with their die-hard teachings,,,it just makes me wonder what good they think
they're doing by being so mean and insistent.

I guess what I'm saying is that I have a little bit of difficulty with authority - at least the way I understand it.
Seems like I have to read everything for myself....guess I'm Protestant in that way.

Christ clearly gave His Godly authority to forgive sins in John 20:23 (read from 20:19, to get a better context). And we can see how the first Christians understood that by the ECF writings, etc. I would say, too, that the Sacraments are all truly confected by Jesus Christ, THROUGH His ministers, the priests. That's why the Church claims that even priests deep in sin can administer the Sacraments. It's not about them.

Agreed.
God is ministering the sacraments -- not the priest.
Although, if you know something or other about the priest, it does tend to make one mistrust the entire church.
Unfortunately, most Catholics do not know their doctrine well and depend too much on what they "see".
I live in a small community and all is known about practically everybody.

With regard to some priests not believing what the Church teaches, I think that is without doubt the case. The Church has always had its Judas Iscariots from the very beginning. Remember, we are at war, not between flesh and blood, but between principalities and powers, light and darkness, good and evil. The enemy has angelic intelligence and is a master strategist and tactician. He knows full well that if he can get to one of the shepherds, he can negatively affect a lot of sheep. But that doesn't affect the Church's doctrines, which stand in tact.

OK.
Except this priest is a Catholic theologian and speaks 6 or 7 languages and has taught even in the middle east.
Since you're willing to listen, I'll also tell you this: A priest here in the next town over told THE CONGREGATION one Sunday, about 4 years ago....that the church APOLOGIZES for teaching about hell because hell does not exist! Now, we conservatives were up in arms but, as you can imagine, many were pretty happy to hear it. I won't go to Mass there anymore.

I think the church is in some trouble and it doesn't quite know how to get out of it.
At least over here.
I think it should hang tight to its Traditions and traditions, but it doesn't listen to me!
And I think this Pope needs to go.

 

[David in NJ]

It's self evident that sola scriptura does not work because of the endless division that it caused. Calvin disagreed with Luther and the division hasn't stopped since. 40,000 sola scripturist denominations? Think about it.

A non-sequitur fallacy. It's not the same. The Lord Jesus Christ was not a sola scripturist. Even the notorious anti-Catholic James White admits the Apostles were not sola scripturists. Sola scriptura was invented by Martin Luther because he was angry with the pope and was mentally ill.
Protestantism bases all of its teachings on a myth that is not found in the Bible.

A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura

Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a “standard of truth”—even the preeminent one—but not in a sense that rules out the binding authority of authentic apostolic Tradition and the Church. The Bible doesn’t teach that.

www.catholic.com

You will automatically dismiss or ignore this link because you are afraid of it.

Can't remember if I replied to the above....sorry.

You say your list is from God's mouth to our ears:

OK

Show me in the NT where it states that we are to depend only on Scripture.
It doesn't exist.

And how do you explain this verse:

Mark 7:6-13
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

7‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’

8“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

We are told in scripture (2 Thesassalians 2:15) that we are to keep Tradition...
correct...
BUT
Not when it conflicts with biblical teachings.

PURGATORY AND INDULGENCES are not biblical teachings.
They were NEVER taught in the early church but were developed over time and thus they are null.

What we hear from God with our ears must be biblical....
not a dogma, doctrine or discipline invented by man.

Here is your irrefutable evidence #1, of 'Sola Scriptura', DIRECT = from God's Mouth to our ears!!!

Matthew 4:4 = “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”