There is only one true church

[Deus vult]

You win today's . . . . View attachment 48086

There's lots of stuff they teach that isn't even close to being biblical as in they do stuff Jesus and His Apostles never taught.

Those following unbiblical catholic doctrine go south when they croak.




I simply compared what God's Word teaches with what the catholic so called "church" teaches and it's easy to see the Lord is right and the catholics are wrong.

Some folk have to learn the hard way apparently, so enjoy!
View attachment 48087

"I simply compared what God's Word teaches with what the catholic so called "church" teaches and it's easy to see the Lord is right and the catholics are wrong." And whose interpretation of God's Word does that belong to?

You say that Catholic doctrine is not found in Scripture and is spiritually bankrupt. Let me ask you, are your parents perfect? No. Does that change the truth that they are still your parents? No. The fact is that the Bible (OT alone does not count) was not canonized until about the 4th century. I am also willing to wager that you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. And speaking of doctrines not found in Scripture, the doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere explicitly mentioned in the Bible..it is instead inferred from the Bible. The word 'trinity' itself is not in Scripture. So you too, follow doctrines that are not in Scripture.

 

[Deus vult]

Mary is not worshipped by the Catholics and Orthodox, either. She is venerated because who doesn't even honor their own mother? She is the queen of heaven because she gave birth to God. Mary is not dead, the saints are not dead...they are in heaven and are alive because God is of the living. Asking the saints to pray for us is like asking a family member to pray for you.

 

[PS95]

Keep in mind who the prophets were. They were the people God chose to speak for Him and convey instructions to His people, the Jews.
Same as Scripture. Scripture is one of the two main methods of conveying the Word of God. Strictly speaking, the Word of God is not a book. It is a Person. Namely, Jesus Christ. See the beginning of the Gospel of John. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Clearly, John is referring to Jesus Christ here.

I suppose I can go with that. The apostles prophecied, but Paul also taught some things which weren't from the Lord, but seemes to be his opinion. - so it's hard for me to consider it prophecy. Know what I mean?
I agree with you about the Word!

So, yes, the Bible is one of the two main methods of spreading the Word of God, like the prophets. The other is Oral Tradition (oral teaching), as St. Paul refers to in 2 Thes. 2:15.

I've noted that and have read much of the apostolic church father's writings. I found them very interesting and clarifying, although they dont always agree. I wouldnt expect such a young church to agree on every matter, especially since there was a lot to digest, but basics are there. Apparently, hey still had blurry spots like we still do. With regard to oral teachings- yes! I wish I knew what they were. I have no idea.
Does the church say what those were? Two possibilities from reading ECF's- Mary had no children aside from Jesus- they were cousins and.. bread and wine become body of the Lord? Is that right? are there more?

I think we need only look at the fruits of personal interpretation to see the harm it has done to souls. We now have literally tens of thousands of differing, contradictory denominations in Protestantism, all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, reading the same Bible, yet coming up with different and contradictory interpretations. That cannot possibly be the grounding for the fullness of truth.

It's a horrid mess if we go by these boards. My personal experience has beennothing like these boards, thank goodness. I hate to see the fighting over things that are secondary, and not salvational.

I would refer to 1 Tim 3:15, where St. Paul refers to the Church as the "pillar and bulwark of truth." Nowhere does it say the individual, personally interpreting a Bible is anything of the sort. And for good reason.

One more thing to think about. Historically, it has only been in the last 100 years, give or take, that mankind as a whole has had much interest in universal literacy. The vast, vast majority of humanity for the vast majority of the time Christianity has existed, were completely illiterate. A Bible-reading, self-interpreting approach would have effectively excluded the vast majority of humanity! That couldn't possibly have been Christ's intent, I don't think.

Your thoughts...?

Yes, we didnt have the bible as we do now in every home- no doubt! I was just saying the other day- no wonder the catholic church was opposed to everyone reading the bible- look what happens when we do.. ha
There are aspects of Catholisism that I can't wrap my head around.. you've probably already heard them..
rosary, repetition
Mary praying- Jesus is our only mediator
Saints I respect them, but leave it there
purgatory

I havent been in the catholic church since I was a very young child.

 

[amadeus]

amadeus, keep in mind that it was the Catholic Church that wrote the New Testment,

God inspired men to write the scriptures, whether they were affiliated with an organization of men or not. Presuming that any group of men or organization should be given so much credit is more than I am able to do. Give God the glory!

and in the late 4th century decided that it was worthy of being called Scripture.

I was not here in the 4th century. I simply give God the glory for what He has provided... including the Bible.

The Catholic Church did this with the authority given it by Christ. Authority is given, not taken.

God gave me the gift of the Holy Ghost so that I could be led. The authority was then and still is, His. I did not take the gift. He gave it to me. Should I quench His Holy Spirit in me so as to follow any man?

Christ promised, in Matt. 16:18, that the "gates of hell" would never prevail over His Church.

What you see as the "Church" and what I see as the "Church" are not the same. If they were, you would not be where you are, and I would not be where I am.

Therefore, if the Catholic Church ever declared a doctrine that was in error, then Christ would have broken His promise and the gates of hell would certainly have prevailed over His Church. That hasn't happened.

We also differ on this.

It is the Church that speaks for Christ with His authority. See John 20:21 that says, "Jesus said to them again,l “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Note the bold printed part. How did the Father send Jesus? With ALL heavenly authority! So, He likewise sends the Apostles. And the Apostle did likewise to their successors, the bishops, who have done likewise down through the centuries till today. Authority is given, not taken.

I will not go through the details of what I believe versus what you believe. I have not been led to do that. If we, you and I, truly continue to seek His face, will He not give to either one or both of us any increase He chooses to give?

Protestantism crawls with error after error after error. That's why there are tens of thousands of doctrinally differing, disagreeing, contradicting, man-made denominations today. That cannot possibly be the grounding for the fullness of truth that Christ brought to mankind, can it?

Long before Jesus was born, crucified and arose from the dead, Jeremiah was inspired to write the following:

Jer 10:23

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

God then provided direction by means of his Son and the Holy Spirit. Why is it that men continue to try to direct themselves?

 

[Deus vult]

Can we have some scriptural evidence for that statement, please. “Correctly and authoritatively interpreted” can hide a multitude of sins.

Can you give us clear scriptural to support the fact that….

1) Jesus is other than “the son of God”, which he clearly identified himself to be. (John 10:31-36)
2) That Mary is ever called “the mother of God” or given titles that were formerly attached to pagan mother goddesses. (“our lady”, “queen of heaven”)
3) That purgatory exists, when humans are never said to enter such a place. (Eccl 9:5, 10) The dead are dead…awaiting a resurrection….the place from which Christ calls all the dead is “hades” or the common grave….a place where we all end up.
4) That a burning hell awaits the wicked.…there is no immortal soul to go anywhere. The dead cannot suffer.
5) That Christianity was to be governed by a Pope.….when he carries the pagan Roman title of “Pontifex Maximus”….Peter was never appointed to such a position. He was given responsibilities, not an office that placed him above his fellow apostles.
6) That titles were ever given to those who served in the congregation as teachers and spiritual guides.…and that these were to be distinguished by a certain manner of dress and the wearing of specific colors. (Matt 23:9-10) Was Jesus identified by what he wore? He looked like any other Jew, so Judas had to identify him with a kiss.
6) That there was ever an earthly priesthood in original Christianity. Priesthood was to be given only to the elect (the chosen ones) and only after their resurrection to heaven upon Christ’s return. (Rev 20:6; 1 Thess 4:13-17)
7) That a sinful human has authority to absolve anyone else from their sins by repeating words by rote as penance. (Matt 6:7-8)
8) That there was ritual and liturgy centered around the presence of religious images which God forbade the making of to his people. (Exodus 20:4-5)
9) That there is more than one mediator, so that praying to Mary and the saints is absolure disrespect and disobedience to the only mediator whom God appointed and recognizes. (1 Tim 2:5-6)



In my own personal experience, Catholic people have always been treated like mushrooms….kept in the dark and fed manure. It is only when they study the Bible for themselves, that they find out that all those things mentioned above are the manure, so that they need to wash themselves clean of all of that, and learn what the Bible really says about them.

As far as “church history” goes…..well, that speaks for itself. No genuine Christian can have blood on their hands. (Isa 1:15) God did not ever sanction a Christian’s involvement in warfare, and “the church” has routinely, throughout its history, been immersed in the politics of their nations, currying “friendship with the world” (James 4:4) and forgetting most of what Jesus taught…’to love their enemies and to pray for them‘. (Matt 5:43-44) How could people be led into such unchristian conduct, if they ever knew what it was in the first place? If “the church” had followed Christ’s teachings, the Crusades could never have happened.…and every spiller of innocent blood since, will be held to account.

How could their worship become so corrupted that what they practice is not found in the Bible at all…..
Who told them that it was? Christ and his apostles foretold that this apostasy would take place and that “wheat and weeds” would grow together in the world…..the church pretends that it never happened.

1. Do you have scriptural support of the doctrine of the Trinity? Because 'trinity' doesn't appear once in the Bible.
2. Do you have scriptural support of the doctrine of sola scriptura?
3. Do you have scriptural support of the doctrine of sola fide?
4. Did Jesus leave us with a church or a Bible first?
5. Do you have scriptural support of the 'rapture'?
6. How did Christianity exist before the Bible was canonized almost 4 centuries later?
7. Who said that they pray to Mary? Do you not honor your mother?
8. If Jesus reveals the Father and the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus, is it not the saints that reveal the Holy Spirit?
9. Would your denomination exist without the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church from 34 AD?

The crusades were justified and in defense of centuries of Muslim wars of expansion. Christians were oppressed and enslaved by the Muslims, the crusades took place to liberate them and free up territory that was once Christian as well as to defend the Byzantines from Muslim expansion since the Byzantines lacked the manpower. Genuine Christians can have blood on their hands. Luke 22:36...Jesus told his disciples: "He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." The Bible doesn't say do not kill, it says do not murder.

If you had to protect your child from someone breaking into your house and it meant taking that person's life to do it, is it murder?

 

[Deus vult]

God inspired men to write the scriptures, whether they were affiliated with an organization of men or not. Presuming that any group of men or organization should be given so much credit is more than I am able to do. Give God the glory!

I was not here in the 4th century. I simply give God the glory for what He has provided... including the Bible.

God gave me the gift of the Holy Ghost so that I could be led. The authority was then and still is, His. I did not take the gift. He gave it to me. Should I quench His Holy Spirit in me so as to follow any man?

What you see as the "Church" and what I see as the "Church" are not the same. If they were, you would not be where you are, and I would not be where I am.

We also differ on this.

I will not go through the details of what I believe versus what you believe. I have not been led to do that. If we, you and I, truly continue to seek His face, will He not give to either one or both of us any increase He chooses to give?


Long before Jesus was born, crucified and arose from the dead, Jeremiah was inspired to write the following:

Jer 10:23

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

God then provided direction by means of his Son and the Holy Spirit. Why is it that men continue to try to direct themselves?

How did Christianity spread/how did people worship Christ before the Bible was canonized almost 400 years later?

 

[PS95]

Can we have some scriptural evidence for that statement, please. “Correctly and authoritatively interpreted” can hide a multitude of sins.

Can you give us clear scriptural to support the fact that….

1) Jesus is other than “the son of God”, which he clearly identified himself to be. (John 10:31-36)
2) That Mary is ever called “the mother of God” or given titles that were formerly attached to pagan mother goddesses. (“our lady”, “queen of heaven”)
3) That purgatory exists, when humans are never said to enter such a place. (Eccl 9:5, 10) The dead are dead…awaiting a resurrection….the place from which Christ calls all the dead is “hades” or the common grave….a place where we all end up.
4) That a burning hell awaits the wicked.…there is no immortal soul to go anywhere. The dead cannot suffer.
5) That Christianity was to be governed by a Pope.….when he carries the pagan Roman title of “Pontifex Maximus”….Peter was never appointed to such a position. He was given responsibilities, not an office that placed him above his fellow apostles.
6) That titles were ever given to those who served in the congregation as teachers and spiritual guides.…and that these were to be distinguished by a certain manner of dress and the wearing of specific colors. (Matt 23:9-10) Was Jesus identified by what he wore? He looked like any other Jew, so Judas had to identify him with a kiss.
6) That there was ever an earthly priesthood in original Christianity. Priesthood was to be given only to the elect (the chosen ones) and only after their resurrection to heaven upon Christ’s return. (Rev 20:6; 1 Thess 4:13-17)
7) That a sinful human has authority to absolve anyone else from their sins by repeating words by rote as penance. (Matt 6:7-8)
8) That there was ritual and liturgy centered around the presence of religious images which God forbade the making of to his people. (Exodus 20:4-5)
9) That there is more than one mediator, so that praying to Mary and the saints is absolure disrespect and disobedience to the only mediator whom God appointed and recognizes. (1 Tim 2:5-6)



In my own personal experience, Catholic people have always been treated like mushrooms….kept in the dark and fed manure. It is only when they study the Bible for themselves, that they find out that all those things mentioned above are the manure, so that they need to wash themselves clean of all of that, and learn what the Bible really says about them.

As far as “church history” goes…..well, that speaks for itself. No genuine Christian can have blood on their hands. (Isa 1:15) God did not ever sanction a Christian’s involvement in warfare, and “the church” has routinely, throughout its history, been immersed in the politics of their nations, currying “friendship with the world” (James 4:4) and forgetting most of what Jesus taught…’to love their enemies and to pray for them‘. (Matt 5:43-44) How could people be led into such unchristian conduct, if they ever knew what it was in the first place? If “the church” had followed Christ’s teachings, the Crusades could never have happened.…and every spiller of innocent blood since, will be held to account.

How could their worship become so corrupted that what they practice is not found in the Bible at all…..
Who told them that it was? Christ and his apostles foretold that this apostasy would take place and that “wheat and weeds” would grow together in the world…..the church pretends that it never happened.

Oh A JW! hi Jane!!
I have 100000 questions for JWs and YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER ME.
You guys can not accuse the catholic church of anything!!!!!! unless you have uneven scales. and you do.

 

[PS95]

Can we have some scriptural evidence for that statement, please. “Correctly and authoritatively interpreted” can hide a multitude of sins.

Oh Jane I am not Catholic- but this deserves a reply. Kettle meet pot again? JWs arent above all others. They are sincerely wrong.

Can we have scriptural evidence for JW teaching that your governing body interprets scripture properly? They sure dont! Yet, you believe and must teach all of what they say to others as fact!!. Insanity Jane. I have shown you how out of context it is.
and.. Matt 24:45 IS A PARABLE..

Can you give us clear scriptural to support the fact that….

1) Jesus is other than “the son of God”, which he clearly identified himself to be. (John 10:31-36)

1. Yes, for starters, the Word was God.
Your turn-- Can you give us scriptural evidence that "Michael the archangel's impersonal life force was put into Mary's ovum?"

2) That Mary is ever called “the mother of God” or given titles that were formerly attached to pagan mother goddesses. (“our lady”, “queen of heaven”)

2. Elizabeth called Mary, "the Mother of my Lord" even while she was still pregnant with him.
your turn----- Jesus was not Lord at his birth? Of course He was.. many scrpitures attest to that.
also, why is the Watchtower called "the Mother Organization?"

3) That purgatory exists, when humans are never said to enter such a place. (Eccl 9:5, 10) The dead are dead…awaiting a resurrection….the place from which Christ calls all the dead is “hades” or the common grave….a place where we all end up
4) That a burning hell awaits the wicked.…there is no immortal soul to go anywhere. The dead cannot suffer.

3.-4-- they have always taught resurrection of the body. lake of fire awaits wicked.
Your turn- "God disposed of Jesus' body into gases. He did not rise. Only Michaels impersonal angelic life force went to heaven.
Jesus, the man is dead forever..
soul is just your body-- spirit is just your breath? What's life- force likened to electricity? Where is that in the bible?

"5) That Christianity was to be governed by a Pope.….when he carries the pagan Roman title of “Pontifex Maximus”….Peter was never appointed to such a position. He was given responsibilities, not an office that placed him above his fellow apostles.

5.--
Your turn- The watchtower governing body was appointed by God as his sole channel of communication? His mouthpiece? Are they not the heaven bound crowd ruling above the earthlings?

6) That titles were ever given to those who served in the congregation as teachers and spiritual guides.…and that these were to be distinguished by a certain manner of dress and the wearing of specific colors. (Matt 23:9-10) Was Jesus identified by what he wore? He looked like any other Jew, so Judas had to identify him with a kiss

6 yes, titles were given to them. elders, deacons ,bishop, etc (dependent on translation) No colors that I know of but so what?
Your turn-
You make HUGE distinctions between your leaders and the members.
Heavenbound/earthbound
Christ's body member/ NO
Jesus is mediator/ NO
Born anew/NO
Partakers of communion/NO
Branches of true vine/NO
belong to Christ/NO
in New Covenant/NO
son of God/NO
sigh.. i will stop there..it goes on and on..

6) That there was ever an earthly priesthood in original Christianity. Priesthood was to be given only to the elect (the chosen ones) and only after their resurrection to heaven upon Christ’s return. (Rev 20:6; 1 Thess 4:13-17)

Your turn- You dont call them priests, but Governing body acts just like they are. word games.

7) That a sinful human has authority to absolve anyone else from their sins by repeating words by rote as penance. (Matt 6:7-8)

ROTE? Did you say rote? are you copying me? Do JWs memorize verses out of context in a rote manner? YES!
Do your elders decide if repentance is sincere or not? Forgive or kick out and shun? Isn't that the same thing? YES.

8) That there was ritual and liturgy centered around the presence of religious images which God forbade the making of to his people. (Exodus 20:4-5)

8 --
Your turn- Do you treat watchtower magazines & books as if they are God's words YES.

9) That there is more than one mediator, so that praying to Mary and the saints is absolure disrespect and disobedience to the only mediator whom God appointed and recognizes. (1 Tim 2:5-6)

9. --
Your turn- Does the Watchtower teach that Jesus IS NOT your mediator? YES

In my own personal experience, Catholic people have always been treated like mushrooms….kept in the dark and fed manure. It is only when they study the Bible for themselves, that they find out that all those things mentioned above are the manure, so that they need to wash themselves clean of all of that, and learn what the Bible really says about them.

So very rude but that's how I see JWs.

As far as “church history” goes…..well, that speaks for itself. No genuine Christian can have blood on their hands. (Isa 1:15) God did not ever sanction a Christian’s involvement in warfare, and “the church” has routinely, throughout its history, been immersed in the politics of their nations, currying “friendship with the world” (James 4:4) and forgetting most of what Jesus taught…’to love their enemies and to pray for them‘. (Matt 5:43-44) How could people be led into such unchristian conduct, if they ever knew what it was in the first place? If “the church” had followed Christ’s teachings, the Crusades could never have happened.…and every spiller of innocent blood since, will be held to account.

If church history speaks for itself why doesnt WATCHTOWER HISTORY SPEAK FOR ITSELF? Are you serious?
JWs murder their own members in the name of a merciless god.

How could their worship become so corrupted that what they practice is not found in the Bible at all…..
Who told them that it was? Christ and his apostles foretold that this apostasy would take place and that “wheat and weeds” would grow together in the world…..the church pretends that it never happened.

Apostates are everywhere. Look in the mirror. YOU deny that Jesus died for our sins! You say your physical death pays for your sins. Please jane..read the bible in context ok? Please stop 'teaching' others when you have a large plank in your eye. You stumble over the Lord Jesus' body!
I am not even Catholic, but you really need to stop attacking others. it is called UNEVEN SCALES.

 

[Aunty Jane]

1. Do you have scriptural support of the doctrine of the Trinity? Because 'trinity' doesn't appear once in the Bible.

I do not believe that God is a trinity. The Bible says he is “one”…not “three”. (Deut 6:4; John 17:3)
That doctrine did not exist until the 4th century, therefore it was not taught by either Jesus or his apostles.

2. Do you have scriptural support of the doctrine of sola scriptura?

Jesus often said in answer to his opposers (including the devil)…”it is written”….who and what was he quoting? You think Scripture did not exists before your church? What ignorance!

3. Do you have scriptural support of the doctrine of sola fide?

Again, God-inspired Scripture is all we have…the rest is from men. We are told not to add or subtract anything….the RCC did both….in more ways than many can imagine.

4. Did Jesus leave us with a church or a Bible first?

Are you serious? He had the Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for all he taught…..he had a Bible first and based his “church” on the teachings of that God inspired Scripture. (2 Tim3:16-17)
Your church is based on the doctrines and traditions of men. (Matt 15:7-9)

5. Do you have scriptural support of the 'rapture'?

I have no belief in “the rapture”…..there is no rapture in the Bible.
When Christ was to return, he was going to resurrect his chosen ones “first”…..something unseen to human eyes, and when it was time for the judgment, he was going to collect the remaining ones of his “saints” who were still on earth. It will be nothing like that portrayed by Christendom’s churches. Jehovah is a God of order, not chaos.

6. How did Christianity exist before the Bible was canonized almost 4 centuries later?

Again….whom God used to compile the canon is irrelevant, because he can use whomever suits his purpose at the time….even his enemies. Besides which fact, the RCC chose apocryphal works that clearly do not belong in God’s word.
These additional writings are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom (of Solomon), Ecclesiasticus (not Ecclesiastes), Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees, supplements to Esther, and three additions to Daniel: The Song of the Three Holy Children, Susanna and the Elders, and The Destruction of Bel and the Dragon. The exact time of their being written is uncertain, but the evidence points to a time no earlier than the second or third century B.C.E.

While in some cases they have certain historical value, any claim for canonicity on the part of these writings is without any solid foundation. The evidence points to a closing of the Hebrew canon following the writing of the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, and Malachi in the fifth century B.C.E. The Apocryphal writings were never included in the Jewish canon of inspired Scriptures and do not form part of it today.
So, they didn’t exactly get it right anyway.

7. Who said that they pray to Mary? Do you not honor your mother?

Twisting the facts doesn’t make them true. Mary was indeed a woman of good character and the perfect mother for God’s son, but she was not the only one who raised him. She gave birth to him as part of Christ’s credentials as Messiah, but he had a human father who trained him in his carpentry. A human woman had to bring him into the world. Mary was chosen, because of her circumstances and her character…..but the Scriptures do not give her the attention and titles that your church does.

8. If Jesus reveals the Father and the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus, is it not the saints that reveal the Holy Spirit?

Again with twisting the facts…..the truth is, there is not a single scripture that tells us that there is “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”….The Roman church made up those titles, well after the death and resurrection of Christ and his apostles. All Scripture tells us about is “God the Father”…..Show us where to find mention of the others….

9. Would your denomination exist without the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church from 34 AD?

Absolutely! This would be in accord with the prophesies concerning the “the time of the end” written by Daniel some 500 years before the birth of the Messiah. He is the one who told us when to expect a “cleansing, whitening and refining” of God’s worshippers….so whoever went before was going to apostatize no matter who they were. The devil was going to sow counterfeit “Christianity” and sell it as the real deal……it never was, as Jesus clearly states in Matt 7:21-23….at the judgment, those who “think” that they are “Christians” but who uphold the RCC’s doctrines were never “Christians” in the first place. He will tell them he “NEVER KNEW“ them…..”never“ means “not ever”.

The crusades were justified and in defense of centuries of Muslim wars of expansion. Christians were oppressed and enslaved by the Muslims, the crusades took place to liberate them and free up territory that was once Christian as well as to defend the Byzantines from Muslim expansion since the Byzantines lacked the manpower. Genuine Christians can have blood on their hands. Luke 22:36...Jesus told his disciples: "He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." The Bible doesn't say do not kill, it says do not murder.

God has not sanctioned a war since the days of ancient Israel….and only then because they were defending their own God-given land. When Jesus walked the earth, the holy land was no longer in Israel’s possession and hadn’t been for hundreds of years. Israel didn’t even have an army at that time. To join the military was seen as an act of disloyalty, like tax collectors, working for the nation who stole your land and was oppressing your people.

Tell me today who has a God-given land….one that they did not steal (with much bloodshed) from others…..from whose rightful possession it was taken by force?
Shedding the blood of innocents, is murder. And those who participate in war of any nation do not have God’s sanction to take life. They are given the right to execute convicted criminals who have broken God’s law when incorporated into the laws of their nation….but no one is authorized to shed innocent blood….or to conquer a land not their own. Murder and stealing are against God’s law.

If you had to protect your child from someone breaking into your house and it meant taking that person's life to do it, is it murder?

Personal self defense is one thing, and even then it would never include deliberate taking of a life as if you were somehow acting on behalf of the law. Even an accidental manslayer in Israel had a penalty imposed on them because of the sanctity of life to its Creator. He has sole jurisdiction over life and death.
Anyone treating his laws with disobedience and disrespect will answer to him….

 

[PS95]

I do not believe that God is a trinity. The Bible says he is “one”…not “three”. (Deut 6:4; John 17:3)
That doctrine did not exist until the 4th century, therefore it was not taught by either Jesus or his apostles.

Jesus often said in answer to his opposers (including the devil)…”it is written”….who and what was he quoting? You think Scripture did not exists before your church? What ignorance!

Again, God-inspired Scripture is all we have…the rest is from men. We are told not to add or subtract anything….the RCC did both….in more ways than many can imagine.

Are you serious? He had the Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for all he taught…..he had a Bible first and based his “church” on the teachings of that God inspired Scripture. (2 Tim3:16-17)
Your church is based on the doctrines and traditions of men. (Matt 15:7-9)

I have no belief in “the rapture”…..there is no rapture in the Bible.
When Christ was to return, he was going to resurrect his chosen ones “first”…..something unseen to human eyes, and when it was time for the judgment, he was going to collect the remaining ones of his “saints” who were still on earth. It will be nothing like that portrayed by Christendom’s churches. Jehovah is a God of order, not chaos.

Again….whom God used to compile the canon is irrelevant, because he can use whomever suits his purpose at the time….even his enemies. Besides which fact, the RCC chose apocryphal works that clearly do not belong in God’s word.
These additional writings are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom (of Solomon), Ecclesiasticus (not Ecclesiastes), Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees, supplements to Esther, and three additions to Daniel: The Song of the Three Holy Children, Susanna and the Elders, and The Destruction of Bel and the Dragon. The exact time of their being written is uncertain, but the evidence points to a time no earlier than the second or third century B.C.E.

While in some cases they have certain historical value, any claim for canonicity on the part of these writings is without any solid foundation. The evidence points to a closing of the Hebrew canon following the writing of the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, and Malachi in the fifth century B.C.E. The Apocryphal writings were never included in the Jewish canon of inspired Scriptures and do not form part of it today.
So, they didn’t exactly get it right anyway.

Twisting the facts doesn’t make them true. Mary was indeed a woman of good character and the perfect mother for God’s son, but she was not the only one who raised him. She gave birth to him as part of Christ’s credentials as Messiah, but he had a human father who trained him in his carpentry. A human woman had to bring him into the world. Mary was chosen, because of her circumstances and her character…..but the Scriptures do not give her the attention and titles that your church does.

Again with twisting the facts…..the truth is, there is not a single scripture that tells us that there is “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”….The Roman church made up those titles, well after the death and resurrection of Christ and his apostles. All Scripture tells us about is “God the Father”…..Show us where to find mention of the others….

Absolutely! This would be in accord with the prophesies concerning the “the time of the end” written by Daniel some 500 years before the birth of the Messiah. He is the one who told us when to expect a “cleansing, whitening and refining” of God’s worshippers….so whoever went before was going to apostatize no matter who they were. The devil was going to sow counterfeit “Christianity” and sell it as the real deal……it never was, as Jesus clearly states in Matt 7:21-23….at the judgment, those who “think” that they are “Christians” but who uphold the RCC’s doctrines were never “Christians” in the first place. He will tell them he “NEVER KNEW“ them…..”never“ means “not ever”.

God has not sanctioned a war since the days of ancient Israel….and only then because they were defending their own God-given land. When Jesus walked the earth, the holy land was no longer in Israel’s possession and hadn’t been for hundreds of years. Israel didn’t even have an army at that time. To join the military was seen as an act of disloyalty, like tax collectors, working for the nation who stole your land and was pressing your people.

Tell me today who has a God-given land….one that they did not steal (with much bloodshed) from others…..from whose rightful possession it was taken by force?
Shedding the blood of innocents, is murder. And those who participate in war of any nation do not have God’s sanction to take life. They are given the right to execute convicted criminals who have broken God’s law when incorporated into the laws of their nation….but no one is authorized to shed innocent blood….or to conquer a land not their own. Murder and stealing are against God’s law.

Personal self defense is one thing, and even then it would never include deliberate taking of a life as if you were somehow acting on behalf of the law. Even an accidental manslayer in Israel had a penalty imposed on them because of the sanctity of life to its Creator. He has sole jurisdiction over life and death.
Anyone treating his laws with disobedience and disrespect will answer to him….

Jane shuns me because I know what Jws teach & reject it. Right Jane?

 

[PS95]

I do not believe that God is a trinity. The Bible says he is “one”…not “three”. (Deut 6:4; John 17:3)
That doctrine did not exist until the 4th century, therefore it was not taught by either Jesus or his apostles.

Here we go again!
Christians believe in ONE god. Jws believe in a true God and a false god.
4th century is baloney. Read Apostolic fathers and you will see the beginnings of it!! You refuse. why? Fire from fire. light from ;light- same substance. Jesus was called, YYWH.. etc.

Jesus often said in answer to his opposers (including the devil)…”it is written”….who and what was he quoting? You think Scripture did not exists before your church? What ignorance!

He was quoting the written word & His Father. who else? that's the thing.. Jws dont even try to understand. they just reject and accuse.

Again, God-inspired Scripture is all we have…the rest is from men. We are told not to add or subtract anything….the RCC did both….in more ways than many can imagine.

Are you serious? He had the Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for all he taught…..he had a Bible first and based his “church” on the teachings of that God inspired Scripture. (2 Tim3:16-17)
Your church is based on the doctrines and traditions of men. (Matt 15:7-9)

HA! JWs arent based on doctrines of MAN! c'mon you cant be serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have no belief in “the rapture”…..there is no rapture in the Bible.
When Christ was to return, he was going to resurrect his chosen ones “first”…..something unseen to human eyes, and when it was time for the judgment, he was going to collect the remaining ones of his “saints” who were still on earth. It will be nothing like that portrayed by Christendom’s churches. Jehovah is a God of order, not chaos.

Dont tell lies, jane. You teach it already happened in 1919

Again….whom God used to compile the canon is irrelevant, because he can use whomever suits his purpose at the time….even his enemies. Besides which fact, the RCC chose apocryphal works that clearly do not belong in God’s word.
These additional writings are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom (of Solomon), Ecclesiasticus (not Ecclesiastes), Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees, supplements to Esther, and three additions to Daniel: The Song of the Three Holy Children, Susanna and the Elders, and The Destruction of Bel and the Dragon. The exact time of their being written is uncertain, but the evidence points to a time no earlier than the second or third century B.C.E.

irrelevant to you lol? I can't imagine you would say that If JWs compiled the canon!! Hilarious.
Those books are history.

While in some cases they have certain historical value, any claim for canonicity on the part of these writings is without any solid foundation. The evidence points to a closing of the Hebrew canon following the writing of the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, and Malachi in the fifth century B.C.E. The Apocryphal writings were never included in the Jewish canon of inspired Scriptures and do not form part of it today.
So, they didn’t exactly get it right anyway.

So we should have YOU compile the canon. Does this ever stop!??

Twisting the facts doesn’t make them true. Mary was indeed a woman of good character and the perfect mother for God’s son, but she was not the only one who raised him. She gave birth to him as part of Christ’s credentials as Messiah, but he had a human father who trained him in his carpentry. A human woman had to bring him into the world. Mary was chosen, because of her circumstances and her character…..but the Scriptures do not give her the attention and titles that your church does.

Messiah had an earthy father who was not His father.. who was Jesus' Ftaher, Jane? Michael? since his life force was in Marys ovum?

Again with twisting the facts…..the truth is, there is not a single scripture that tells us that there is “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”….The Roman church made up those titles, well after the death and resurrection of Christ and his apostles. All Scripture tells us about is “God the Father”…..Show us where to find mention of the others….

Toilets are not in the bible either. Yet, Your throne O God refers to Jesus. as a king sends his son as king....

Absolutely! This would be in accord with the prophesies concerning the “the time of the end” written by Daniel some 500 years before the birth of the Messiah. He is the one who told us when to expect a “cleansing, whitening and refining” of God’s worshippers….so whoever went before was going to apostatize no matter who they were. The devil was going to sow counterfeit “Christianity” and sell it as the real deal……it never was, as Jesus clearly states in Matt 7:21-23….at the judgment, those who “think” that they are “Christians” but who uphold the RCC’s doctrines were never “Christians” in the first place. He will tell them he “NEVER KNEW“ them…..”never“ means “not ever”.

What is a reason for sayinig He say he never knew them? Did they perhaps prophecy falsely in His name? Didnt he say that? Yes. Have JWs done that?

God has not sanctioned a war since the days of ancient Israel….and only then because they were defending their own God-given land. When Jesus walked the earth, the holy land was no longer in Israel’s possession and hadn’t been for hundreds of years. Israel didn’t even have an army at that time. To join the military was seen as an act of disloyalty, like tax collectors, working for the nation who stole your land and was pressing your people.

How do you know this?

Tell me today who has a God-given land….one that they did not steal (with much bloodshed) from others…..from whose rightful possession it was taken by force?
Shedding the blood of innocents, is murder. And those who participate in war of any nation do not have God’s sanction to take life. They are given the right to execute convicted criminals who have broken God’s law when incorporated into the laws of their nation….but no one is authorized to shed innocent blood….or to conquer a land not their own. Murder and stealing are against God’s law.

shedding the blood of innocents is murder. I agree. So we should just let them? Never protect anyone? ugh

Personal self defense is one thing, and even then it would never include deliberate taking of a life as if you were somehow acting on behalf of the law. Even an accidental manslayer in Israel had a penalty imposed on them because of the sanctity of life to its Creator. He has sole jurisdiction over life and death.
Anyone treating his laws with disobedience and disrespect will answer to him….

what is personal defense in Australia? do you suggest pepper spray against a guy with a gun?

 

[Deus vult]

I do not believe that God is a trinity. The Bible says he is “one”…not “three”. (Deut 6:4; John 17:3)
That doctrine did not exist until the 4th century, therefore it was not taught by either Jesus or his apostles.

Jesus often said in answer to his opposers (including the devil)…”it is written”….who and what was he quoting? You think Scripture did not exists before your church? What ignorance!

Again, God-inspired Scripture is all we have…the rest is from men. We are told not to add or subtract anything….the RCC did both….in more ways than many can imagine.

Are you serious? He had the Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for all he taught…..he had a Bible first and based his “church” on the teachings of that God inspired Scripture. (2 Tim3:16-17)
Your church is based on the doctrines and traditions of men. (Matt 15:7-9)

I have no belief in “the rapture”…..there is no rapture in the Bible.
When Christ was to return, he was going to resurrect his chosen ones “first”…..something unseen to human eyes, and when it was time for the judgment, he was going to collect the remaining ones of his “saints” who were still on earth. It will be nothing like that portrayed by Christendom’s churches. Jehovah is a God of order, not chaos.

Again….whom God used to compile the canon is irrelevant, because he can use whomever suits his purpose at the time….even his enemies. Besides which fact, the RCC chose apocryphal works that clearly do not belong in God’s word.
These additional writings are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom (of Solomon), Ecclesiasticus (not Ecclesiastes), Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees, supplements to Esther, and three additions to Daniel: The Song of the Three Holy Children, Susanna and the Elders, and The Destruction of Bel and the Dragon. The exact time of their being written is uncertain, but the evidence points to a time no earlier than the second or third century B.C.E.

While in some cases they have certain historical value, any claim for canonicity on the part of these writings is without any solid foundation. The evidence points to a closing of the Hebrew canon following the writing of the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, and Malachi in the fifth century B.C.E. The Apocryphal writings were never included in the Jewish canon of inspired Scriptures and do not form part of it today.
So, they didn’t exactly get it right anyway.

Twisting the facts doesn’t make them true. Mary was indeed a woman of good character and the perfect mother for God’s son, but she was not the only one who raised him. She gave birth to him as part of Christ’s credentials as Messiah, but he had a human father who trained him in his carpentry. A human woman had to bring him into the world. Mary was chosen, because of her circumstances and her character…..but the Scriptures do not give her the attention and titles that your church does.

Again with twisting the facts…..the truth is, there is not a single scripture that tells us that there is “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”….The Roman church made up those titles, well after the death and resurrection of Christ and his apostles. All Scripture tells us about is “God the Father”…..Show us where to find mention of the others….

Absolutely! This would be in accord with the prophesies concerning the “the time of the end” written by Daniel some 500 years before the birth of the Messiah. He is the one who told us when to expect a “cleansing, whitening and refining” of God’s worshippers….so whoever went before was going to apostatize no matter who they were. The devil was going to sow counterfeit “Christianity” and sell it as the real deal……it never was, as Jesus clearly states in Matt 7:21-23….at the judgment, those who “think” that they are “Christians” but who uphold the RCC’s doctrines were never “Christians” in the first place. He will tell them he “NEVER KNEW“ them…..”never“ means “not ever”.

God has not sanctioned a war since the days of ancient Israel….and only then because they were defending their own God-given land. When Jesus walked the earth, the holy land was no longer in Israel’s possession and hadn’t been for hundreds of years. Israel didn’t even have an army at that time. To join the military was seen as an act of disloyalty, like tax collectors, working for the nation who stole your land and was pressing your people.

Tell me today who has a God-given land….one that they did not steal (with much bloodshed) from others…..from whose rightful possession it was taken by force?
Shedding the blood of innocents, is murder. And those who participate in war of any nation do not have God’s sanction to take life. They are given the right to execute convicted criminals who have broken God’s law when incorporated into the laws of their nation….but no one is authorized to shed innocent blood….or to conquer a land not their own. Murder and stealing are against God’s law.

Personal self defense is one thing, and even then it would never include deliberate taking of a life as if you were somehow acting on behalf of the law. Even an accidental manslayer in Israel had a penalty imposed on them because of the sanctity of life to its Creator. He has sole jurisdiction over life and death.
Anyone treating his laws with disobedience and disrespect will answer to him….

1. Jesus came before the Bible and he explicitly said that he was sent by the Father and that he promised the Holy Spirit will be sent by the Father. One God as three distinct persons that are co-eternal. Do you think the scriptures is all Jesus has ever said in his lifetime?

2. No, the Bible -with- the NT did not exist before the church. It's historical fact. "It is written" does not mean sola scriptura. 2:15 Thessalonians says "hold to the traditions that you were taught either by our message or by our letter". Jesus also says "you have heard". Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. You cannot cherrypick the verses that are convenient from the Bible to back up some theology that's not consistent with it. That's why there's thousands of denominations nowadays.

3. God-inspired scripture is not all we have. We have tradition, which precedes scripture. The first Christians had no Bible.

4. If Jesus went off the Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for all he taught, then we would Jews. Old Testament alone does not count as the full Bible, that is a different religion altogether called Judaism so it cannot be used to justify the Bible coming before tradition. The NT is what separates Christianity from Judaism and the Bible wasn't canonized until about 4 centuries later. The church is based on the teachings passed down -from- Jesus to the apostles. The apostles were not just "any men".

5. Nothing to say here as you do not believe in the rapture.

6. Martin Luther was the one who said that the 'apocrypha' does not belong in God's word. You are following a man that has no apostolic succession from just 500 years ago. The apocryphal writings are included in something called the Septuagint which is the oldest Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. Don't forget Martin Luther also doesn't consider James an apostle and wanted to remove it along with 3 other books from the NT (Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation). Why should we listen to a man from 500 years ago with no apostolic succession who was keen on removing books from the Bible? The Catholic Church established the canon of Holy Scriptures known as the Bible in the 4th century. Twelve hundred years later, during the Protestant Reformation, Luther and Calvin removed books from the Bible's Old Testament that taught elements which were contrary to their Protestant beliefs.

7. Even though the Scriptures don't give Mary the attention the Church does still doesn't mean that your claim of Mary being prayed to is true. No Catholic or Orthodox will affirm that they pray to Mary, she is venerated, not worshipped.

8. Jesus clearly says in John 20:21-23 that the Father sent him. Luke 1:35 says Son of God. John 15:25-27 refers to the Holy Spirit being sent from the Father.

9. Referring to scripture before the messiah does not count as going off the Bible as we know it because you are essentially going off the Torah instead. OT alone=Judaism. OT+NT=Christianity. And no, not anyone would be able to apostatize as Jesus only chose 12 apostles, there are no other apostles besides those. Saying that your denomination would exist without the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church from 34 AD is like saying you would exist without your great grandparents.

Matthew 16:18 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." Jesus left us a church before the Bible. He did not solely go off the OT or we would be Jews. OT alone≠Bible.

 

[Deus vult]

Jane shuns me because I know what Jws teach & reject it. Right Jane?

She implies that going off the OT alone is sufficient "because Scripture"..but then we'd all be Jews. Literally the OT alone is the Torah, a whole separate religion which we know as Judaism.

 

[PS95]

Well, I think you make a good point. The Pope isn't a dictator, but more like a big brother or friendly supervisor, although he has ultimate authority within the Church. He can fire a bishop (did so recently) from a position (although the individual remains a bishop forever, just like priests who have their faculties removed). From a practical point, imagine you were CEO of a large corporation of 1.4 billion employees. But, you had responsibility for direct supervision of 5000 department heads, spread all over the globe! It would be impossible to know everything going on or to micromanage in that situation. So, the best you can do is have the visit you every so often and update you as to what's going on in their department.

He has fired two conservative bishops recently. 83-year-old Archbishop Vigano & Bishop Strickland of Texas. I read quite abit about Vigano- he stated a lot of truths...

 

[PS95]

She implies that going off the OT alone is sufficient "because Scripture"..but then we'd all be Jews. Literally the OT alone is the Torah, a whole separate religion which we know as Judaism.

That's what JWs do often. They are taught that most of the NT doesnt apply to them.!! Only applies to their leaders.--
They refuse to accept that the NT reveals things in the OT on certain doctrines. ( like punishment after death)
They make no sense once you see what they do. Dont let her get to you. She is always a rude know it all. and wrong at that.
JWs refer to ALL christians as antichrists. Only they have God's approval...
They didnt even teach Jesus died for our sins. They teach their own death pays for their sins.. Not Jesus.
pray for her and let it go.

 

[Beebster]

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her PLAGUES. (Rev 18:4)

 

[face2face]

Mary is not worshipped by the Catholics and Orthodox, either. She is venerated because who doesn't even honor their own mother? She is the queen of heaven because she gave birth to God. Mary is not dead, the saints are not dead...they are in heaven and are alive because God is of the living. Asking the saints to pray for us is like asking a family member to pray for you.

1. Mary is utterly and completely dead to this day.
2. You have rocks in your head if you believe a mortal sinful women can give birth to God
3. Yes, you need our prayers but not in ways which you in your current state would find helpful
F2F

 

[amadeus]

How did Christianity spread/how did people worship Christ before the Bible was canonized almost 400 years later?

God inspired men shared what they had received from God with others. God has never been out of the picture. Consider:

Joh 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

And also...

Mt 5:6

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

 

[Augustin56]

1. Mary is utterly and completely dead to this day.
2. You have rocks in your head if you believe a mortal sinful women can give birth to God
3. Yes, you need our prayers but not in ways which you in your current state would find helpful
F2F

Those in heaven are more alive than we are. Consider, for example, that Jesus teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is “not God not of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32; see also 22:23-33). In addition, Moses and Elijah are alive to Jesus at the Transfiguration and converse with him, even though their earthly deaths had occurred many years before (see Matt. 17:1-8).

 

[Augustin56]

God inspired men shared what they had received from God with others. God has never been out of the picture. Consider:

Joh 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

And also...

Mt 5:6

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

amadeus, I don't think you actually answered the question.