The Winepress

[VictoryinJesus]

So many questions about "the winepress".
So many questions about "the harvest".
When I first came to the board (Isaiah 63:3) made sense and I had accepted it. "The day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come" says the Lord. The Lord will tread His enemies and their blood(as the wine fat) will stain His apparel. Apparel that the word describes as "glorious".

This didn't bother me before, but after getting to know God better...it bothers me now. It bothers me not because it isn't fair. Not because I assume I am better to judge. But because: it does not fit God's character. At all. For me, God never destroys for the sake of destruction but always, always...to demonstrate mercy rather than the wrath of man. God's wrath works righteousness. Our wrath produces war. Not peace. I don't see end times as a scene from the horror movie "War of the Worlds" where mankind is harvested for blood.

Blood "unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." That is man's notion. "Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe."...a harvest of the blood of evil men! What God has always wanted. What God has always wanted...to be saturated in the "winefat", stained red by the blood of evil men!

Joel 1:10-15
[10] The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth. [11] Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished. [12] The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men. [13] Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God. [14] Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the Lord your God, and cry unto the Lord , [15] Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

But a Priest did come. ​

A good shepherd that would feed the sheep.

John 4:35
[35] Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


Joel 3:17-18
[17] So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. [18] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the Lord , and shall water the valley of Shittim.

What is the "new wine" that drops down? What is the milk flowing? (Luke 5:38) But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Has the new wine happened yet? If there is new wine...somebody treads the fruit. Alone.

(Luke 5:39) No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. (Acts 2: 13-17) when the Spirit is poured out on all flesh.

Matthew 9:37-38
[37] Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; [38] Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

Speaking of the corn: Mark 4:29
[29] But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

Revelation 14:14-15 KJV
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Joel 3:13
[13] Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great.​

Revelation 14:18-20
[18] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. [19] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

There is a harvest? when? If the tares are bundled and burned and the wheat gathered into His barn, what comes out of the great wine press? In the old testament, man apart from God failed to bring forth fruit unto life. How does it(the wine fat) make the Lord's apparel glorious? Is it fruit or blood?

(Isaiah 63: 1-3) ....this that is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadth in the winefat?


Mark 12:1
[1] And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it , and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

 

[Stranger]

So many questions about "the winepress".
So many questions about "the harvest".
When I first came to the board (Isaiah 63:3) made sense and I had accepted it. "The day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come" says the Lord. The Lord will tread His enemies and their blood(as the wine fat) will stain His apparel. Apparel that the word describes as "glorious".

This didn't bother me before, but after getting to know God better...it bothers me now. It bothers me not because it isn't fair. Not because I assume I am better to judge. But because: it does not fit God's character. At all. For me, God never destroys for the sake of destruction but always, always...to demonstrate mercy rather than the wrath of man. God's wrath works righteousness. Our wrath produces war. Not peace. I don't see end times as a scene from the horror movie "War of the Worlds" where mankind is harvested for blood.

Blood "unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." That is man's notion. "Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe."...a harvest of the blood of evil men! What God has always wanted. What God has always wanted...to be saturated in the "winefat", stained red by the blood of evil men!

Joel 1:10-15
[10] The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth. [11] Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished. [12] The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men. [13] Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God. [14] Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the Lord your God, and cry unto the Lord , [15] Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

But a Priest did come. ​

A good shepherd that would feed the sheep.

John 4:35
[35] Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


Joel 3:17-18
[17] So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. [18] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the Lord , and shall water the valley of Shittim.

What is the "new wine" that drops down? What is the milk flowing? (Luke 5:38) But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Has the new wine happened yet? If there is new wine...somebody treads the fruit. Alone.

(Luke 5:39) No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. (Acts 2: 13-17) when the Spirit is poured out on all flesh.

Matthew 9:37-38
[37] Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; [38] Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

Speaking of the corn: Mark 4:29
[29] But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

Revelation 14:14-15 KJV
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Joel 3:13
[13] Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great.​

Revelation 14:18-20
[18] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. [19] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

There is a harvest? when? If the tares are bundled and burned and the wheat gathered into His barn, what comes out of the great wine press? In the old testament, man apart from God failed to bring forth fruit unto life. How does it(the wine fat) make the Lord's apparel glorious? Is it fruit or blood?

(Isaiah 63: 1-3) ....this that is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadth in the winefat?


Mark 12:1
[1] And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it , and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

Then rip (Is. 63:3) out of your Bible. That way you don't have to believe that God is as the Bible says. Just cut and paste Scripture to make Him how you want Him. Just like many here do.

Go ahead and make God how you want Him to be.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Then rip (Is. 63:3) out of your Bible. That way you don't have to believe that God is as the Bible says. Just cut and paste Scripture to make Him how you want Him. Just like many here do.

Go ahead and make God how you want Him to be.

Stranger

I won't be ripping out (Isaiah 63:3). I ask you: What makes His apparel glorious? Vengeance for the sake of man. Or mercy for the sake of God?

If I am wrong then I'm confident God is not going to condemn me to hell, for loving when I shouldn't.


Luke 10:27-28
[27] And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. [28] And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


Matthew 5:43-48
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


If you pass by a Muslim laying on the side of the road, beaten, naked and left for dead.

Can you pass on the other side?

 

[Helen]

@VictoryinJesus
You packed a lot into your OP. Too much for me to respond to! :)
But I will say this...
Luke tells us that Jesus went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and He was given the book of the prophecy of Isaiah to read. Opening the scroll he found the place (which happens to be the sixty-first chapter of our version of Isaiah) where it read, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because he has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor." (Lk. 4:10)
That passage predicts the ministry of the Messiah. Then Jesus stopped right in the middle of a sentence and His last word was that He had come to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
Isaiah's passage goes on to say, "and the day of vengeance of our God." (Is. 61:2)
Now the reason is door number one, or door number two.
1) Either the Lord did not read that because it was not the time to proclaim the day of vengeance of God. or
2) He was showing them that He Himself was the fulfillment of that word.. We know by reading Isa 53...that God poured out all sin and wrath upon The Lamb..'and God saw the travail of His soul, and was satisfied.'

I believe it is door number 2.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Then rip (Is. 63:3) out of your Bible. That way you don't have to believe that God is as the Bible says. Just cut and paste Scripture to make Him how you want Him. Just like many here do.

Go ahead and make God how you want Him to be.

Stranger

Mark 12:1-11
[1] And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it , and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. [2] And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard. [3] And they caught him , and beat him, and sent him away empty. [4] And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled. [5] And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some. [6] Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. [7] But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. [8] And they took him, and killed him , and cast him out of the vineyard. [9] What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. [10] And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: [11] This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

A place for the winefat. That He might collect the fruit of the vineyard. What fruit? The blood of evil men? But the men over the vineyard were FAT off the Lord's increase while others starved.
Coveting...they cast out the heir.

They were thrust out. The vineyard was given to others. The Kingdom given to others. The fat cows of increase were eaten by the thin cows during famine. (OT)The heir took His winepress "without the gate" of the city and He cause it to bear fruit. Alone.

Hebrews 13:12-13
[12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Revelation 14:20
[20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Outside the Kingdom and there is only one way in...we pick up our cross and follow Him without the gate. For what? To be troddened under foot?

Acts 14:22
[22] Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Who crucified Jesus? God or man? Who troddens out the winefat? Who is the one being trampled? Who gets all the glory?

 

[Stranger]

I won't be ripping out (Isaiah 63:3). I ask you: What makes His apparel glorious? Vengeance for the sake of man. Or mercy for the sake of God?

If I am wrong then I'm confident God is not going to condemn me to hell, for loving when I shouldn't.


Luke 10:27-28
[27] And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. [28] And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


Matthew 5:43-48
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


If you pass by a Muslim laying on the side of the road, beaten, naked and left for dead.

Can you pass on the other side?

God's vengeance makes Him just as glorious as His mercy. (Rom. 3:5) (2 Thess. 1:8)

Here is the problem. You and others want to make God's 'love' as only that which manifests His glory. But that is wrong. Both His love and His vengeance manifests His glory.

God condemns to hell those who reject Jesus Christ. Not for 'loving' or not 'loving'.

Oh, you want to build a scenario where I am the evil one. Ok. Give me the scenario where Jesus Christ is on the earth ruling in the kingdom. Because that is what Christ is talking about here. (Matt. 5-7) concern the 'kingdom rule' upon the earth. The 1000 year reign of Christ where Satan is bound.

And what are the laws of the Kingdom? Did you want to? Not just did you do it. But did you want to do it. So, how do you measure up? Do you covet at all? Do you swear at all? Do you sue anyone at all? Do you give to everyone that asks you? It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, that they ask. If they ask, give it to them. Right?

You want to put me in the picture of rejecting the muslim as not being true to loving my enemies. Do you love the enemies of God? It is not my enemies that I hate, it is the enemies of God. And the muslim is the enemy of God. Will I help a muslim who needs help? I don't know, there are so many situations that could be configured where I could say yes or no. If I am an American soldier in the mideast at this time, I could easily pass by the muslim lying on the road. If I am an American in a neighborhood where muslims beat and attack American in that area for not obeying Shariah Law, I could easily pass by that muslim. muslims are the enemy of God.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Mark 12:1-11
[1] And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it , and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. [2] And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard. [3] And they caught him , and beat him, and sent him away empty. [4] And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled. [5] And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some. [6] Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. [7] But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. [8] And they took him, and killed him , and cast him out of the vineyard. [9] What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. [10] And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: [11] This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

A place for the winefat. That He might collect the fruit of the vineyard. What fruit? The blood of evil men? But the men over the vineyard were FAT off the Lord's increase while others starved.
Coveting...they cast out the heir.

They were thrust out. The vineyard was given to others. The Kingdom given to others. The fat cows of increase were eaten by the thin cows during famine. (OT)The heir took His winepress "without the gate" of the city and He cause it to bear fruit. Alone.

Hebrews 13:12-13
[12] Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Revelation 14:20
[20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Outside the Kingdom and there is only one way in...we pick up our cross and follow Him without the gate. For what? To be troddened under foot?

Acts 14:22
[22] Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Who crucified Jesus? God or man? Who troddens out the winefat? Who is the one being trampled? Who gets all the glory?

I don't understand what you are saying. Without a doubt, God gets the glory.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Give me the scenario where Jesus Christ is on the earth ruling in the kingdom.

Does He rule in your life? Does He rule His body as head?

I'm not making you out to be anything. Or I don't mean to. You have helped me. Reading your post in this forum has helped me. I ask hard questions. If they are questions of no benefit then toss them out.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don't understand what you are saying. Without a doubt, God gets the glory.

Stranger

Why did He go without the gate?

You still haven't answered: what comes out of the winepress? Is it blood? Or fruit, work of the Spirit?

when is the fruit harvest spoken of when He says the fields are white and ready but the labours are few?

Ezekiel 38:16
[16] And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

 

[Stranger]

Why did He go without the gate?

You still haven't answered: what comes out of the winepress? Is it blood? Or fruit, work of the Spirit?

when is the fruit harvest spoken of when He says the fields are white and ready but the labours are few?

Ezekiel 38:16
[16] And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Without the gate or outside the gate is the place where God has prepared that He might meet with His people. Seen in (Exodus 29:14) concerning the sin offering, it was to be burned outside the camp. Why? Because the camp was full of sin and rebelliousness. This is seen next in the people's making of the golden calf. (Ex. 32) Thus when Moses came down and saw the sin he broke the tables of the Law. (32:19) Then he went to the gate of the camp called every man who was for the Lord to himself. (32:26) And judgement followed.

Next it was time to build the Tabernacle. (Ex. 33:7). The Tabernacle is where God manifests Himself among a sinful people. He is within the Holy of Holies, behind the veil, and upon the Mercy Seat of the Ark. Access to Him comes only through blood sacrifice. Thus the Tabernacle is pitched outside the camp. (33:7) "And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the LORD went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp.

Therefore it was necessary that Jesus suffered outside the camp, outside the gate. Israel, and the religion of the Jews had become a false religion. It did not represent God. Thus God would have His place, where man could meet Him, placed outside the camp, outside the gate. So, Christ was crucified outside the camp. Paul in (Heb. 13:10-14) is telling the the Jewish believers who are returning to Judaism to remember that just as God provided the place of meeting outside the camp with the original Tabernacle, so He now provides the place of meeting outside of the camp of Israel, in the the true Tabernacle, the Person of Jesus Christ. See (John 1:14). The word 'dwelt' is properly translated 'tabernacled'.

Concerning the winepress, it all depends on what God is saying in the Scripture used. In (Mark 12:1-11) the 'vineyard' is the subject more than the winepress. In ( Is. 63:1-6) the winepress is that of judgement and Jesus alone operates it. And it will produce much blood as a result of that judgement.

(Matt. 9:37) speaks to the harvest being plenteous but the labourers are few. This speaks to the giving of the Gospel of the Kingdom which was to Israel alone. (Matt. 10:5-6)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Does He rule in your life? Does He rule His body as head?

I'm not making you out to be anything. Or I don't mean to. You have helped me. Reading your post in this forum has helped me. I ask hard questions. If they are questions of no benefit then toss them out.

Because I am a born-again Christian, I am in a relationship with God and Christ. Thus whatever I do, be it good or bad comes under the scrutiny of God. And I am answerable to God for it. Jesus Christ is the Head of His body and the body functions accordingly.

The word 'rule' does not seem to me to be appropriate. Does the husband rule over his wife. Let a husband try it sometimes and see how far he gets. Israel knows Jesus Christ as King and Ruler. The Church is in a different relationship with Him.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Because I am a born-again Christian, I am in a relationship with God and Christ. Thus whatever I do, be it good or bad comes under the scrutiny of God. And I am answerable to God for it. Jesus Christ is the Head of His body and the body functions accordingly.

The word 'rule' does not seem to me to be appropriate. Does the husband rule over his wife. Let a husband try it sometimes and see how far he gets. Israel knows Jesus Christ as King and Ruler. The Church is in a different relationship with Him.

Stranger

Depends on the ruler. We have seen how He rules: He comes underneath and lifts up the weak vessel. No wife would despise to be ruled by a husband that seeks others well-being over his own.

Why did John the Baptist loose his head?
To demonstrate he was given a new One.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Without the gate or outside the gate is the place where God has prepared that He might meet with His people. Seen in (Exodus 29:14) concerning the sin offering, it was to be burned outside the camp. Why? Because the camp was full of sin and rebelliousness. This is seen next in the people's making of the golden calf. (Ex. 32) Thus when Moses came down and saw the sin he broke the tables of the Law. (32:19) Then he went to the gate of the camp called every man who was for the Lord to himself. (32:26) And judgement followed.

Next it was time to build the Tabernacle. (Ex. 33:7). The Tabernacle is where God manifests Himself among a sinful people. He is within the Holy of Holies, behind the veil, and upon the Mercy Seat of the Ark. Access to Him comes only through blood sacrifice. Thus the Tabernacle is pitched outside the camp. (33:7) "And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the LORD went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp.

Therefore it was necessary that Jesus suffered outside the camp, outside the gate. Israel, and the religion of the Jews had become a false religion. It did not represent God. Thus God would have His place, where man could meet Him, placed outside the camp, outside the gate. So, Christ was crucified outside the camp. Paul in (Heb. 13:10-14) is telling the the Jewish believers who are returning to Judaism to remember that just as God provided the place of meeting outside the camp with the original Tabernacle, so He now provides the place of meeting outside of the camp of Israel, in the the true Tabernacle, the Person of Jesus Christ. See (John 1:14). The word 'dwelt' is properly translated 'tabernacled'.

Concerning the winepress, it all depends on what God is saying in the Scripture used. In (Mark 12:1-11) the 'vineyard' is the subject more than the winepress. In ( Is. 63:1-6) the winepress is that of judgement and Jesus alone operates it. And it will produce much blood as a result of that judgement.

(Matt. 9:37) speaks to the harvest being plenteous but the labourers are few. This speaks to the giving of the Gospel of the Kingdom which was to Israel alone. (Matt. 10:5-6)

Stranger

Agree with everything you've said. But without the gate is the winepress. Outside of man's labour. We go there to bear His reproach. It is where "He who looses his life will find it". It is where you pick up your cross and follow Him to lay down your labour and give it to Him. Everything inside the city of man's own labour and works to cover himself, like in the garden...was put "without".

There is only one way into the Kingdom, Stranger. It is through the press.

Luke 16:16
[16] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 8:19-21
[19] Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press. [20] And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. [21] And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

2 Corinthians 1:7-9
[7] And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. [8] For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: [9] But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

Have you been pressed and bear fruit that is not of your own works?

 

[101G]

ADDRESSING the OP.

haven't read all of the posts. but consider this. the winepress is not for the believing save, but for the unbelieving sinners.

and as for the corn..ect.. listen,

Isaiah 55:1 "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Isaiah 55:2 "Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

Isaiah 55:3 "Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. THAT VERSE NEED TO BE READ AGAIN.

Isaiah 55:4 "Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people".

but what dod the word say?
Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Conclusion: Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel.
and by not obeying (believing) the gospel, it will get you in the WINEPRESS for sure.

supportive scriptures, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil".

MEN Love darkness rather than light. that's what get men in the winepress.

did not Isaiah say "who has believed our report"? see Isaiah 53:1-

Just even today people still don't believe that the Lord JESUS is God in the Flesh, meaning God himself.

Oh well, the winepress ye go.

PCY.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Isaiah 16:10
[10] And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.


Acts 18:5-6
[5] And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. [6] And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Mark 2:4-5
[4] And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. [5] When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.


Mark 5:27-30
[27] When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. [28] For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. [29] And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. [30] And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?


Luke 8:45-46
[45] And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee , and sayest thou, Who touched me? [46] And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

Luke 16:16 K
[16] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

 

[bbyrd009]

But because: it does not fit God's character.

but it does fit most ppls perspective of God's character i guess huh

I don't see end times as a scene from the horror movie "War of the Worlds" where mankind is harvested for blood.

ty, and congrats :)

 

[bbyrd009]

God condemns to hell those who reject Jesus Christ.

lol.

God loves them and they can't stand it, just like you couldn't stand being forgiven of your sin when i did that, wadr
and you are still forgiven, just so you know ok

 

[101G]

VJ in your OP, I missed what now I believe you're getting at. God is angry at sin and hence the reason for the next verses. listen,

Isaiah 63:4 "For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

If I understand you correctly, God is providing a way from destruction. see if one doesn't believe the gospel as to WHAT "HE" DID ON THE CROSS. yes at harvest time those will perish. but God have given GOOD NEWS in these verses. also, listen, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you".

see at judgment/harvest those who refuse to obey his gospel will meet his vengeance, but those who do obey, recompence or goodwill, the white throne judgment where the rewards are handed out.

see, he has given all of us a heads up here in Isaiah. Believe what he has done for you., about your sin, it REMOVED. just read John 3:16 to 3:21

this is why the Gospel is the OLD and New Testament, the SAME gospel. for the apostle said, "what was written aforetime is for our learning".

PCY.

 

[Frank Lee]

You probably think me a simpleton but no matter. Our life is hard enough without me vainly trying to comprehend the meaning(s) I of every passage of scripture. Being alive, the word, a scripture, can be given many meanings. For guidance, comfort, healing, for whatever the need be. And of course the face value.

Like King David I refuse to allow myself to give away my peace trying to understand things that are far far beyond my ken.

Psalm 131:1 KJVS
Lord , my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

Striving to understand tends to rob all peace. He promised perfect peace as we set our mind on Him. Not as we try to Crack open a complex scripture

Peace always passes understanding. It is not necessary for me to understand. I don't have to understand how or even when God will deliver me. It is necessary for me to trust completely, to believe that He will surround me with His loving arms whether I understand anything or or not. That He will come and help me.

Understanding is the beat up clunker rattling and smoking down the highway. Peace is the sleek twelve cylinder custom designed vehicle that passes the junker named understanding.

Fear can come from not understanding. From trying to l mentally understand every scripture or what God is going to do to deliver me. Fear has torment.

Instead of resting in Him we often fret over things that are not that important. Seeking peace always is my goal. There is nothing like His peace. I've been pressed out of measure by fears and trials and the peace of God is my refuge. Yesterday, April 12th, my doctor told me I had an irregular heart beat. The last visit three months ago he said I have a heart murmur. Probably a leaky valve.

He asked me what I wanted to do about it. I gave him my testimony about being called out for a healing of my heart forty years ago. Many times the symptoms of pains and aching would return and with tears I cried out to Him saying that Lord you said I was healed in 1978 and you haven't sent me a retraction. So I continue to trust in your word and not to give in to the fear that always tries to press its way in.

My choice is to either camp at the evil tidings or to trust. In trusting there is found peace and his brother Joy.

Whether I understand all is not that important. To have His peace always is most important. Trust that He will give understanding when He wisely decides that it is needed.

Matthew 11:12 KJVS
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

The kingdom of God is three things only.

Romans 14:17 KJVS
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1. Righteousness
2. Peace
3. Joy in the Holy Spirit

1. The righteousness He gives us through the blood and the cross of the sacrifice of Jesus the Christ. He esteems us through His son.

2. He speaks to the peace in Genesis chapter 41. He promised an answer of peace to Pharaoh, a heathen. How much more to us who have hitched our wagon to His word? Forget the poets admonition to hitch our wagon to a star. Hitch it to the Son is far far better.

3. He speaks to the joy in Ecclesiastes.

Ecclesiastes 5:20 KJVS
For he shall not much remember the days of his life; because God answereth him in the joy of his heart.

So we see that both peace and joy are answers.

Peace and joy are twins birthed at the same time. One will never be seen without the other. They are always holding hands.

Peace and joy are superior to understanding. Understanding will not necessarily, hardly ever bring peace and joy. Quite often when we fully understand a matter it drives away peace and joy. Why? He who increases knowlege increases sorrow.

Ecclesiastes 1:18 KJVS
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

So according to the word I will fight, take peace and joy by force. The things He wants me to understand He will reveal. In the meantime I am like a weaned child. He holds my hand as I look up at His wonderful face and see Him smiling down at me. Peace floods my heart.

Corrie Ten Boom asked her father a question about sex when she was very young. Her father asked her "when we go to Amsterdam on the train to set my clocks time, when do I give you your ticket? A day before"?

Corrie replied "not until we board the train". Her father said "about your question, it is not the time now but you will be answered when you need to know like being given your ticket".

Having peace and joy is the greatest understanding of all.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You probably think me a simpleton but no matter. Our life is hard enough without me vainly trying to comprehend the meaning(s) I of every passage of scripture. Being alive, the word, a scripture, can be given many meanings. For guidance, comfort, healing, for whatever the need be. And of course the face value.

Like King David I refuse to allow myself to give away my peace trying to understand things that are far far beyond my ken.

Psalm 131:1 KJVS
Lord , my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

Striving to understand tends to rob all peace. He promised perfect peace as we set our mind on Him. Not as we try to Crack open a complex scripture

Peace always passes understanding. It is not necessary for me to understand. I don't have to understand how or even when God will deliver me. It is necessary for me to trust completely, to believe that He will surround me with His loving arms whether I understand anything or or not. That He will come and help me.

Understanding is the beat up clunker rattling and smoking down the highway. Peace is the sleek twelve cylinder custom designed vehicle that passes the junker named understanding.

Fear can come from not understanding. From trying to l mentally understand every scripture or what God is going to do to deliver me. Fear has torment.

Instead of resting in Him we often fret over things that are not that important. Seeking peace always is my goal. There is nothing like His peace. I've been pressed out of measure by fears and trials and the peace of God is my refuge. Yesterday, April 12th, my doctor told me I had an irregular heart beat. The last visit three months ago he said I have a heart murmur. Probably a leaky valve.

He asked me what I wanted to do about it. I gave him my testimony about being called out for a healing of my heart forty years ago. Many times the symptoms of pains and aching would return and with tears I cried out to Him saying that Lord you said I was healed in 1978 and you haven't sent me a retraction. So I continue to trust in your word and not to give in to the fear that always tries to press its way in.

My choice is to either camp at the evil tidings or to trust. In trusting there is found peace and his brother Joy.

Whether I understand all is not that important. To have His peace always is most important. Trust that He will give understanding when He wisely decides that it is needed.

Matthew 11:12 KJVS
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

The kingdom of God is three things only.

Romans 14:17 KJVS
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1. Righteousness
2. Peace
3. Joy in the Holy Spirit

1. The righteousness He gives us through the blood and the cross of the sacrifice of Jesus the Christ. He esteems us through His son.

2. He speaks to the peace in Genesis chapter 41. He promised an answer of peace to Pharaoh, a heathen. How much more to us who have hitched our wagon to His word? Forget the poets admonition to hitch our wagon to a star. Hitch it to the Son is far far better.

3. He speaks to the joy in Ecclesiastes.

Ecclesiastes 5:20 KJVS
For he shall not much remember the days of his life; because God answereth him in the joy of his heart.

So we see that both peace and joy are answers.

Peace and joy are twins birthed at the same time. One will never be seen without the other. They are always holding hands.

Peace and joy are superior to understanding. Understanding will not necessarily, hardly ever bring peace and joy. Quite often when we fully understand a matter it drives away peace and joy. Why? He who increases knowlege increases sorrow.

Ecclesiastes 1:18 KJVS
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

So according to the word I will fight, take peace and joy by force. The things He wants me to understand He will reveal. In the meantime I am like a weaned child. He holds my hand as I look up at His wonderful face and see Him smiling down at me. Peace floods my heart.

Corrie Ten Boom asked her father a question about sex when she was very young. Her father asked her "when we go to Amsterdam on the train to set my clocks time, when do I give you your ticket? A day before"?

Corrie replied "not until we board the train". Her father said "about your question, it is not the time now but you will be answered when you need to know like being given your ticket".

Having peace and joy is the greatest understanding of all.

Frank Lee, peace comes with wisdom and you have both. He places us in different places. For me, this is where He placed me. I feel sorrowful when you post of your suffering and pain...and I struggle with what to pray for, for my brother. To inspire you to keep pressing in to Him more and more every day, is all I know to do. And to say you are not alone.