The view of the "Gentleman God" who honors human will above His own.

[Dan Clarkston]

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Er, NO and the scriptures you posed does not say that.

The Lord is just giving man time to repent before He pulls the plug on man being allowed to govern himself

When Jesus gets here, man will no longer be allowed to govern the affairs of this world as Jesus will be taking all that over during His 1000 Year Reign as Ruler over this world's affairs.

 

[Behold]

No it was just a choice based on circumstance.

Thank you for admitting you made a choice.

So....When you choose your next 3,456,789 Choices, that you CHOOSE to Do, or Think, then just realize that God gave you that power of Choice.

Welcome to your Freewill.

Use it wisely, as God holds you accountable for your CHOICES you CHOOSE to Make, until the day you DIE... = Hebrews 9:27... @Beebster

Try to understand, that if God was choosing for you, then God could not hold you accountable.
And Indeed He does, and that is because its YOUR Free will, that decides what you choose to do, think, believe...
Thats on you, @Beebster

 

[Dan Clarkston]

No, I don't have free will and neither do you.

 

[Bob Estey]

Are you claiming that God told you that staying in hell is an option for those who were sent there? And that it is pleasant enough that some may choose that as a better option than heaven?

That POV seems to hinge on the "blame the victim" claim that many choose in order to whitewash the hell doctrine, thus absolving God of His sovereign responsibility for creating and maintaining the most sadistic treatment of humans imaginable. No earthly tyrant can compare to the horror that Christians willingly blame God for.

--- Parody ---

Demon: Welcome to hell.
Resident: What a horrible place.
Demon: Thank you. We do our best.
Resident: Where are you taking me?
Demon: That depends.
Resident: Depends on what?
Demon: Would you prefer smoking, or nonsmoking?
Resident: Are you serious?
Demon: No. You need to get a sense of humor.

/

No, I'm saying that we need to pray constantly to best understand what is in store for us. Don't forget:

[39] You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
[40] yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:39-40 RSV

 

[Beebster]

Thank you for admitting you made a choice.

So....When you choose your next 3,456,789 Choices, that you CHOOSE to Do, or Think, then just realize that God gave you that power of Choice.

God certainly did give us the power to choose.
He also gave my dog power to choose, but guess what my dog doesn't have free will, unless we use your definition of free will.

Use it wisely, as God holds you accountable for your CHOICES you CHOOSE to Make, until the day you DIE... = Hebrews 9:27... @Beebster

Yes God does hold us accountable for our choices, but God is responsible for our salvation. That's why he sent us a Saviour. One who will save every last person that has ever lived, who's living now, and those that live in the future.

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (John 4:14)

And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:42)

Try to understand, that if God was choosing for you, then God could not hold you accountable.
And Indeed He does, and that is because its YOUR Free will, that decides what you choose to do, think, believe...
Thats on you, @Beebster

No one said "God was choosing for you" but God does direct us toward those choices:

A man's heart deviseth his way (Yes he makes choices): but the LORD directeth his steps (to those choices, through circumstance). (Prov 16:9)

I know, O LORD , that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. (Jer 10:23 )

Free will contradicts these two witnesses and and dozens more like them.

 

[Beebster]

Perhaps we need to consider the timeline of these events. Jesus prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane was before his arrest.

Correct and at that time he was in the heart of the earth.

The arrest was before the crucifixion.

Yes, and at that time he was in the heart of the earth.

His time in the heart of the earth was before his resurrection. Makes sense?

Yes.

On what day was Jesus ressurected?

I agree. Jesus was laid in an ABOVE ground tomb. The heart of the earth was Hades, the realm resurrected?

I disagree here. I believe hades is the state of being dead.

When you die you're dead.

Peace.

 

[St. SteVen]

Correct and at that time he was in the heart of the earth.

No. no. that's not correct.

Yes, and at that time he was in the heart of the earth.

No. no. that's not correct either.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

I disagree here. I believe hades is the state of being dead.

When you die you're dead.

How do you define dead? As unconscious not existent? (Ecclesiastes 9

]

 

[St. SteVen]

I disagree here. I believe hades is the state of being dead.

When you die you're dead.

Perhaps you are referring to this

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead,
where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

]

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman that he is,
would never VIOLATE our "free-will" by forcing us to believe in Him.

"and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—" 2 Peter 3:15 NKJV

The Lord is patient (longsuffering) toward us. His patience (longsuffering) is salvation.

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Interesting that those who claim that God is a gentleman, also believe that
He will incinerate those who do not receive the free gift of salvation. What is gentle about that?

To be clear, I still believe that every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Christ is Lord.
But those who believe in the "Gentleman God" claim the confession is forced. What is gentle about that?

Here's my position on that.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth
and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation,
acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and
returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
(the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about")
– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"),
without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

You imply universalism which the Scriptures do not support.

Yes every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

some to salvation, and some in realization they forfeited their chance and are forced to acknowledge Jesus in judgment when they refuses in life.

The demons believe jesus is Lord but they have no salvation and as it is written, "it is destined for aman to die once, then comes judgment".

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

[St. SteVen]

You imply universalism which the Scriptures do not support.

There is biblical support for all three views of the final judgement.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

some to salvation, and some in realization they forfeited their chance and are forced to acknowledge Jesus in judgment when they refuses in life.

Read the Strong's definition of "acknowledge" (confess) below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about")
– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"),
without reservation (no holding back).

 

[Beebster]

Hello Ronald, Since I also teach that all shall be saved, I’m going to jump in here.

You imply universalism which the Scriptures do not support.

Here are 10 witnesses to the contrary:

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14)

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (Phil 2:10)

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23)

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, EVERY knee shall bow to me, and EVERY tongue shall confess to God. (Rom 14:11)

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. (John 12:47)

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL men to Myself.” (John 12:32)

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Isa 26:9)

And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed THE CHRIST, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:42)

To say “the Scriptures do not support” universalism is just not true.

Yes every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.


some to salvation, and some in realization they forfeited their chance and are forced to acknowledge Jesus in judgment when they refuses in life.

You acknowledge “that every tongue will confess” and we just read it, so how do you reconcile this:

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and NO ONE can say, “Jesus is Lord,” EXCEPT by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 12:3)

Peace.

 

[Beebster]

No. no. that's not correct either.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

I won’t explain that in one post.

But if you answer the question I posed in post #66

On what day was Jesus ressurected?

Christ may start to open your eyes to this truth.

How do you define dead? As unconscious not existent? (Ecclesiastes 9

Perhaps you are referring to this
Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead,
where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The NIV makes it sound like the dead live in a kingdom where they can’t work or plan which would seem obvious because there’s no knowledge or wisdom in that “realm.”

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (sheol), whither thou goest.

The NIV translators turned "sheol" into “the realm of the dead.”

But hey, the translators of the KJV turned "sheol" into “hell” half the time and when man has an agenda he will find a way to twist the word of God. It makes sense though:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer 17:9)

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 NIV)

And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning (resurrection), but I shall not be. (Job 7:21)

Peace.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
I agree. Jesus was laid in an ABOVE ground tomb. The heart of the earth was Hades, the realm resurrected?

I disagree here. I believe hades is the state of being dead.

When you die you're dead.

30 (29) results for realm of the dead in the NIV Bible.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm dead

www.biblegateway.com

Isaiah 14:9 NIV
The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

]

 

[Beebster]

St. SteVen said:
I agree. Jesus was laid in an ABOVE ground tomb. The heart of the earth was Hades, the realm resurrected?

What realm? The realm of the dead?

I’m a bit lost here.

What is the realm of the dead and what is it’s purpose?

Please explain.

Peace.

 

[St. SteVen]

What realm? The realm of the dead?

I’m a bit lost here.

What is the realm of the dead and what is it’s purpose?

Please explain.

You had it in this quote. IMHO

The NIV translators turned "sheol" into “the realm of the dead.”

The realm of the dead is Sheol.
The 29 realm of the dead passages in the NIV Bible search indicate that it is not state of unconscious nonexistence.

The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus makes reference to it. As does the scripture about Christ preaching to the imprisoned spirits.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

What realm? The realm of the dead?

I’m a bit lost here.

What is the realm of the dead and what is it’s purpose?

Please explain.

In the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus explains that there is a great chasm set in place. But...

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Luke 16:25-28 NIV
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place,
so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

]

 

[St. SteVen]

What is the realm of the dead and what is it’s purpose?

The bottom line in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is interesting.
The Rich Man received good things in his lifetime, but ended up in torment.
Lazarus received bad things, but then received comfort.
The Rich Man wanted his five brothers to be warned about this place of torment.
Abraham said, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."
Verses 30-31 says, "... they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

Luke 16:25-31 NIV
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place,
so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

]

 

[St. SteVen]

No, I'm saying that we need to pray constantly to best understand what is in store for us.

Quote above from post #64,

Isn't that promoting a life of fear? As if our eternal destiny is not settled? Eternal insecurity. NOSAS.

As if the Christian life is a high-wire act with the flames of hell below us hungrily licking at our feet.
One wrong move and you are toast.

Where is your confidence in the completed work of the Atonement on our behalf?

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

]

 

[Bob Estey]

Quote above from post #64,

Isn't that promoting a life of fear? As if our eternal destiny is not settled? Eternal insecurity. NOSAS.

As if the Christian life is a high-wire act with the flames of hell below us hungrily licking at our feet.
One wrong move and you are toast.

Where is your confidence in the completed work of the Atonement on our behalf?

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

]

A life of fear? The great and first commandment is to love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls. That would suggest to me that we pray constantly. Paul told us to do that. I see nothing to fear about that. The Lord is a nice fellow, and he can lead us to eternal safety and happiness.