The view of the "Gentleman God" who honors human will above His own.
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
If they aren't following him, he doesn't have a relationship with them, does he? Aren't they on their own?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
When I gegt time to look at this lengthy video I will.
but I assume that the three views are universalism, cessationism, and eternal suffering.
I will declare the first two may be held by believers but they are not biblical.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yeah and the point?
Only those who freely acknowledge the Lord in this life are saved. to acknowledge does not mean to possess. Remember it is destined to die once and then we are judged!
I can agree that biden is president, but not honor him as such.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And I agree 100% with all these verses. but not one of them in the context of the whole NT speaks of universalism.
Jesus has taken away the sins of the world. but in order for that price to be placed on ones acc9ount- We have to obey and receive Christ as Savior.
Jesus is the savior of the World. As the apostles told the Sanhedrin in Acts, "there is no other name given under heaven whereiin men must be saved". Outside of Jesus there is no other Savior. And in order to be saved He gave instructions in order to be saved.
YOur Isaiah passage? Just because one learns righteousaness-it does not make one righteous. Only a saving relationship with Jesus makes one righteous.
But a few verses for you to ponder:
Matthew 7:13-14
King James Version
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.John 3:18
King James Version
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36
King James Version
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
King James Version
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 14:9-11
King James Version
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
I think you are quite amazing. You always have a reply. That being said...
Do those who are "on their own", have to make the sun rise in the morning?
Do they make the rain fall on their crops? Do they not harvest the same crops as their neighbors?
Does God leave anyone on their own? Relationship or not, he does not withdraw his hand of care.
Matthew 5:44-45 NIV
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,
and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I agree.
Any one of us, believer or not, can get themselves in trouble if we don't.
Which begs the question, is there a benefit even for unbelievers to live as though God exists?
This has become the fall back position for some agnostics and even atheists. To live as though God exists.
The Bible can be viewed as a book of axioms to follow whether you are religious or not.
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
The Lord gave us two commandments, upon which all other commandments hang: Love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and love our neighbors as ourselves. The greater of the two is to love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls, Jesus told us. Sounds like these agnostics and atheists you refer to are trying to obey the lesser of the two. I would think it better they obey one of the two, as opposed to neither.
I agree for the most part.
But I see a common misquote/misunderstanding in your post. Not a criticism, but worth discussing. Not verse 40. What does it actually say?
It's a reference to the BOOKS of the Law and the BOOKS of the Prophets, not commandments, or even the law. What do you suppose that means?
Matthew 22:37-40 NIV
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Why would you say one is greater than the other when Jesus said they were the same? "... And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
That's not the point about agnostics and atheists. The point is they see the value even WITHOUT the commitment. Does God not bless everyone that lives as if he exists?
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
For the most part? You don't entirely agree with what Jesus said?:
[34] But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sad'ducees, they came together.
[35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:34-40 RSV
All the Law and the Prophets hang on the two...
If we are able to correctly [according to God] obey the two, then we will have thereby correctly followed or obeyed everything in the Law & Prophets [OT] which God considers necessary for us today
No. I don't entirely agree with what YOU said. Again... (pay attention this time, thanks)
I see a common misquote/misunderstanding in your post. Not a criticism, but worth discussing. Not verse 40. What does it actually say?
It's a reference to the BOOKS of the Law and the BOOKS of the Prophets, not commandments, or even the law. What do you suppose that means?
Matthew 22:37-40 NIV
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
COMPARE
- Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
- Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
- Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
- Luke 16:16
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.
- Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
- John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
- Acts 13:15
After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak.”
- Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
- Acts 28:23
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.
- Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
/
Question: When the phrase, "the Law and the Prophets" is used, what does "the Law" mean?
Answer: The BOOKS of the Law, not the laws themselves.
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I had purposely added the following phrase to my answer:
"obeyed everything in the Law & Prophets [OT] which God considers necessary for us today".
If you want to add your answer that is OK with me. I will stay with what I wrote.
Beebster
Member
That’s not a very detailed answer so I decided to dig a bit into the NIV to see if I could understand what these translators consider “the realm of the dead” to be.
According to them, the inside of a fish is “the realm of the dead”:
Jonah 2
1 [a]From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God. 2 He said:
“In my distress I called to the Lord,
and he answered me.
From deep in the realm of the dead (sheol) I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.
3 You hurled me into the depths,
into the very heart of the seas,
and the currents swirled about me;
all your waves and breakers
swept over me. - NIV
So “deep in the realm of the dead” Jonah “called for help.”
Yet,
- in the realm of the dead (sheol), where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (Ecc 9:10) - NIV
Apparently living people can come and go to “the realm of the dead”:
Isa 57
8Behind your doors and your doorposts
you have put your pagan symbols.
Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed,
you climbed into it and opened it wide;
you made a pact with those whose beds you love,
and you looked with lust on their naked bodies.
9 You went to Molek[a] with olive oil
and increased your perfumes.
You sent your ambassadors[b] far away;
you descended to the very realm of the dead! (sheol)
10 You wearied yourself by such going about,
but you would not say, ‘It is hopeless.’
You found renewal of your strength,
and so you did not faint. - NIV
Yet,
- in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (Ecc 9:10) - NIV
How can Jonah or anyone for that matter come and go from “the realm of the dead?”
You say:
And notice Job 21:13-
They spend their years in prosperity and go down to the grave (sheol) in peace. - NIV
Why is “sheol” translated “grave” here, and how does a rich man “go down to the grave" (sheol) in peace?”
The Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable that has nothing to do with “the realm of the dead”
Here it seems “the realm of the dead” is full of spirits all astir waiting to greet leaders of the world:
The realm of the dead (sheol) below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. (Isa 14:9) - NIV
Which seems impossible since again:
- in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (Ecc 9:10) - NIV
Beebster
Member
- in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (Ecc 9:10) - NIV
If it weren’t for Ecc 9:10, that would be a true statement; they do make it sound like you’re conscious.
There is no consistency in their translation of the Hebrew word “sheol.”
In the Old Testament the NIV translators render the Hebrew word “sheol”
27 times to “realm of the dead”
29 times to “grave”
7 times to “death”
1 time “die” or “destined to die.”
Notice, in the very same verse, the liberty they take with one simple word:
They are like sheep and are destined to die (sheol); death will be their shepherd (but the upright will prevail over them in the morning). Their forms will decay in the grave (sheol), far from their princely mansions. (Psa 49:14) - NIV
That’s deception.
Here is more deceit:
Psalm 30
1 I will exalt you, Lord,
for you lifted me out of the depths
and did not let my enemies gloat over me.
2 Lord my God, I called to you for help,
and you healed me.
3 You, Lord, brought me up from the realm of the dead (sheol H7585);
you spared me from going down to the pit (bore H953).
Is “sheol” the “the realm of the dead” or “the pit”?
Let’s see:
Psalm 30 cont.
4 Sing the praises of the Lord, you his faithful people;
praise his holy name.
5 For his anger lasts only a moment,
but his favor lasts a lifetime;
weeping may stay for the night,
but rejoicing comes in the morning.
6 When I felt secure, I said,
“I will never be shaken.”
7 Lord, when you favored me,
you made my royal mountain[c] stand firm;
but when you hid your face,
I was dismayed.
8 To you, Lord, I called;
to the Lord I cried for mercy:
9 “What is gained if I am silenced,
if I go down to the pit (sheol H7585)? (Why is “sheol” translated “the pit” here and not “the realm of the dead”?)
Will the dust praise you? (So the pit/sheol is the grave? The grave is the dust right?)
Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
10 Hear, Lord, and be merciful to me;
Lord, be my help.”
11 You turned my wailing into dancing;
you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy,
12 that my heart may sing your praises and not be silent.
Lord my God, I will praise you forever.
Why translate “sheol” to “the realm of the dead” and “the pit” in the very same Psalm, especially when “the pit” is translated six verses prior from the Hebrew word “bore”?
Something is afoot here. Sounds like they had an agenda to me.
Once one realizes there is no "realm of the dead" it becomes evident that Christ never went there to preach.
Peace.
St.SteVen said:
If it weren’t for Ecc 9:10, that would be a true statement; they do make it sound like you’re conscious.
There is no consistency in their translation of the Hebrew word “sheol.”
In the Old Testament the NIV translators render the Hebrew word “sheol”
27 times to “realm of the dead”
29 times to “grave”
7 times to “death”
1 time “die” or “destined to die.”
Notice, in the very same verse, the liberty they take with one simple word:
They are like sheep and are destined to die (sheol); death will be their shepherd (but the upright will prevail over them in the morning). Their forms will decay in the grave (sheol), far from their princely mansions. (Psa 49:14) - NIV
That’s deception.
Here is more deceit:
Psalm 30
1 I will exalt you, Lord,
for you lifted me out of the depths
and did not let my enemies gloat over me.
2 Lord my God, I called to you for help,
and you healed me.
3 You, Lord, brought me up from the realm of the dead (sheol H7585);
you spared me from going down to the pit (bore H953).
Is “sheol” the “the realm of the dead” or “the pit”?
Let’s see:
Psalm 30 cont.
4 Sing the praises of the Lord, you his faithful people;
praise his holy name.
5 For his anger lasts only a moment,
but his favor lasts a lifetime;
weeping may stay for the night,
but rejoicing comes in the morning.
6 When I felt secure, I said,
“I will never be shaken.”
7 Lord, when you favored me,
you made my royal mountain[c] stand firm;
but when you hid your face,
I was dismayed.
8 To you, Lord, I called;
to the Lord I cried for mercy:
9 “What is gained if I am silenced,
if I go down to the pit (sheol H7585)? (Why is “sheol” translated “the pit” here and not “the realm of the dead”?)
Will the dust praise you? (So the pit/sheol is the grave? The grave is the dust right?)
Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
10 Hear, Lord, and be merciful to me;
Lord, be my help.”
11 You turned my wailing into dancing;
you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy,
12 that my heart may sing your praises and not be silent.
Lord my God, I will praise you forever.
Why translate “sheol” to “the realm of the dead” and “the pit” in the very same Psalm, especially when “the pit” is translated six verses prior from the Hebrew word “bore”?
Something is afoot here. Sounds like they had an agenda to me.
Once one realizes there is no "realm of the dead" it becomes evident that Christ never went there to preach.
Peace.
Beebster
Member
What is the context of the New Testament.
It’s not bad news is it?
In post #83 you said:
Ronald Nolette said:
Is not the context of the New Testament salvation; the gospel?
The context of the New Testament is Good News right?
That could turn into an interesting conversation depending on how we perceive that statement because we (all of us) still sin right?
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)
Well, we certainly must repent and obey Jesus Christ in order to have eonian life, not everlasting life or eternal life, but eonian life.
2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
He most assuredly is.
Do you believe he will save the world?
True, there is not.
True, but this could turn into an interesting conversation too:
And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord's. (Obadiah 1:21)
Yes he did and most (including myself) have a very hard time understanding those instructions, let alone obeying them.
Not my passage, God’s Word.
From man’s point of view no, but from God’s point of view, Absolutely!
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Isa 26:9)
The end result here, is that all will be righteous.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)
It seems to me that a “saving relationship with Jesus” would be learning righteousness.
Peace.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
No, the law is the law:
"You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.'" Luke 18:20 RSV
LOL
It's a metaphor.
If you were swallowed by a huge fish would you assume that you were likely as good as dead?
It says nothing about coming and going. Unless I missed something. ???
Maybe that where ghosts come from? - LOL
I think Sheol is known as "the Grave". The cause of much confusion.
Was Jesus resurrected from the Grave?
The Grave could not hold Him?
In the song: "Up from the Grave He arose, with a mighty triumph o'r His foes..."
Jesus was laid in an above ground tomb. Not buried in a grave of dirt.
His body did not see decay.
Why would Jesus be so misleading? Those listening to Him believed in the realm of the dead.
If it was false, wouldn't some corrective teaching have been appropriate?
So you nix the Prophet Isaiah to side with a book of poetry? Which one was God speaking? Which one was literal?
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