The view of the "Gentleman God" who honors human will above His own.

[St. SteVen]

No, the law is the law:

"You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.'" Luke 18:20 RSV

What do you make of this scripture below?

How can "the law" be the same thing as "the Law"?
This verse says that "the righteousness of God has been made known" which are "apart from the law".
But "to which the Law and the Prophets testify." ???

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[Bob Estey]

What do you make of this scripture below?

How can "the law" be the same thing as "the Law"?
This verse says that "the righteousness of God has been made known" which are "apart from the law".
But "to which the Law and the Prophets testify." ???

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

[

What do you make of this scripture below?

How can "the law" be the same thing as "the Law"?
This verse says that "the righteousness of God has been made known" which are "apart from the law".
But "to which the Law and the Prophets testify." ???

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

[

The object is to have a relationship with the Lord, but you aren't going to do that if you are committing adultery, murdering people, bearing false witness, etc.

 

[St. SteVen]

The object is to have a relationship with the Lord, but you aren't going to do that if you are committing adultery, murdering people, bearing false witness, etc.

You said, "... the law is the law..."

Clearly it is defined as two different things in this scripture. Which is which?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

[

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Is not the context of the New Testament salvation; the gospel?

The context of the New Testament is Good News right?

Mostly, but for those who reject Jesus there is lots of bad news.

That could turn into an interesting conversation depending on how we perceive that statement because we (all of us) still sin right?

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

Proptitiatoipn means an acceptable sacrifice. Atonement in the NT means a removal.

Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the world. But that does not mean He has erased the sins of the world.

Yes he did and most (including myself) have a very hard time understanding those instructions, let alone obeying them.

The instructions are very simple as Paul said. If you confess with your mouth the deity of Jesus Christ and believe in your heart He physically rose from the dead, you will be saved!

From man’s point of view no, but from God’s point of view, Absolutely!

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Isa 26:9)

The end result here, is that all will be righteous.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

So show how learning righteousness from Gpods perspective means people become righteous.

also your error in look at romans 5:19 is that "many" has two meanings. One is a noun and th eother is an adjective. If you do not know why this makes a difference let me know and I will explain it to you.

 

[Bob Estey]

You said, "... the law is the law..."

Clearly it is defined as two different things in this scripture. Which is which?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

[

The Law is simply things you should do to stay out of trouble. If you rob a bank, you go to prison, so the Lord told us not to steal, for example.

 

[Beebster]

I think Sheol is known as "the Grave". The cause of much confusion.

Yes, and rather than create false doctrines they should have left it as is.

Was Jesus resurrected from the Grave?
The Grave could not hold Him?
In the song: "Up from the Grave He arose, with a mighty triumph o'r His foes..."

Jesus was laid in an above ground tomb. Not buried in a grave of dirt.
His body did not see decay.

That’s true, and no Jesus was not “resurrected from the Grave” nor was he resurrected from a tomb.

He was resurrected from DEATH!

And no, his body did not see decay.

His physical body did turn back to dust though; it just didn’t rot on it’s way.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Cor 1:50:53)

Jesus Christ was not raised into a physical body.

Why would Jesus be so misleading?

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? (Mat 13:10)

In other words: “Why would Jesus be so misleading”

11 He answered and said unto them, BECAUSE it is given UNTO YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but TO THEM it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: BECAUSE they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (Mat 13:11-14)

Even that is hard to understand. Jesus did not speak plainly to anyone.

Those listening to Him believed in the realm of the dead.

They sure did and they also believed in reincarnation but that doesn’t make it so.

If it was false, wouldn't some corrective teaching have been appropriate?

I didn’t say it was false, I said it was a parable. Parables are not false, they’re just not literal.

Parables are made up of figurative language just like:

From deep in the realm of the dead (sheol) I called for help,
and you listened to my cry. (Jon 2:2)

You are correct when you say:

It's a metaphor.

However, to say from deep in the realm of the dead is like being on the inside of a fish, well I’d say that’s quite a stretch.

If you were swallowed by a huge fish would you assume that you were likely as good as dead?

Absolutely, but I wouldn’t compare it to going to some realm where the dead hang out or some place like hell where people are tormented as the KJV translates it.

I wonder, why didn’t the NIV translators use the phrase the realm of the dead here in this figurative metaphorical language when David faced death:

“I called to the Lord, who is worthy of praise,
and have been saved from my enemies.
The waves of death swirled about me;
the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me.
The cords of the grave (sheol) coiled around me;
the snares of death confronted me.
“In my distress I called to the Lord;
I called out to my God.
From his temple he heard my voice;
my cry came to his ears. (2 Sam 22:4-7)

That sounds a lot like what Jonah must have went through would you not agree?

So you nix the Prophet Isaiah to side with a book of poetry? Which one was God speaking? Which one was literal?

I didn’t nix anything. And, I don’t take sides when it comes to the word of God.

Translations, now that’s a different story; I will nix those.

I’m not claiming to be an expert in Hebrew but I can read and I can put 2 and 2 together.

What I can’t do is put 27 times “realm of the dead” and 29 times “grave” and 7 times “death” and 1 time “die” or “destined to die” together. That’s just irresponsible translating and very deceitful.

Most scripture has spiritual meaning and if you wish to take it literally that certainly is your choice. But to keep it literal, IMHO, is to miss the true meaning.

 

[Beebster]

Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the world. But that does not mean He has erased the sins of the world.

Please, elaborate. You said earlier:

Jesus has taken away the sins of the world.

The instructions are very simple as Paul said. If you confess with your mouth the deity of Jesus Christ and believe in your heart He physically rose from the dead, you will be saved!

That is just a false statement.

Do you have to be circumcised to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to be baptized to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to be destroyed to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to repent to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to obey the doctrine of Christ to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to endure to the end to be saved? Yes.

What you seem to be claiming is that you can do all the sinning you want but as long as you “confess with your mouth the deity of Jesus Christ and believe in your heart He physically rose from the dead, you will be saved!

Let’s see what Paul said:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Rom 10:9)

Nothing there says you must confess with your mouth “the deity” of Jesus Christ nor does it say that he “physically” rose from the dead.

Which proves what I said:

“most (including myself) have a very hard time understanding those instructions, let alone obeying them.”

also your error in look at romans 5:19 is that "many" has two meanings. One is a noun and th eother is an adjective. If you do not know why this makes a difference let me know and I will explain it to you.

In this case it doesn’t make a difference.

For as by one man's disobedience MANY were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

Ask yourself: How many were made sinners “by one man's disobedience?”

When you have that answer you”ll know just how many will be made righteous.

So show how learning righteousness from Gpods perspective means people become righteous.

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy JUDGEMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Isa 26:9)

When we are judged we will learn righteousness.

And when is that?

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUGDED every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. (Rev 20:13-14)

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15)

And here is a second witness:

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (1 Cor 3:13)

What fire do you suppose that is?

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE. (1 Cor 3:14-15)

Yes we will most certainly be saved by fire.

Peace.

 

[St. SteVen]

He was resurrected from DEATH!

Jesus was raised from the dead. Where are the dead?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus Christ was not raised into a physical body.

Why was he eating fish with the disciples?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I wonder, why didn’t the NIV translators use the phrase the realm of the dead here in this figurative metaphorical language when David faced death:

“I called to the Lord, who is worthy of praise,
and have been saved from my enemies.
The waves of death swirled about me;
the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me.
The cords of the grave (sheol) coiled around me;
the snares of death confronted me.
“In my distress I called to the Lord;
I called out to my God.
From his temple he heard my voice;
my cry came to his ears. (2 Sam 22:4-7)

That sounds a lot like what Jonah must have went through would you not agree?

Both David and Jonah believed in the realm of the dead. Isaiah too.

[

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That is just a false statement.

Do you have to be circumcised to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to be baptized to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to be destroyed to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to repent to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to obey the doctrine of Christ to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to endure to the end to be saved? Yes.

So you disagree with Paul and believe salvation is by grace through faith and maintaining X amount of works. Paul wrote of that in Galatians 1.

What you seem to be claiming is that you can do all the sinning you want but as long as you “confess with your mouth the deity of Jesus Christ and believe in your heart He physically rose from the dead, you will be saved!

Let’s see what Paul said:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Rom 10:9)

Nothing there says you must confess with your mouth “the deity” of Jesus Christ nor does it say that he “physically” rose from the dead.

Well what you seem to think it means and what it means are vastly different.

And to declare Jesus is Kurios is to accept His deity.

But only Jesus body died. So Jesus physically rose from the dead. that is absolutely obvious. Paul even wrote that if Jesus did not rise (ana-stasis= a standing again) then you are still in your sin.

But Jesus is equally god as His Father and jesus physically rose or stood up again in the body He died with.

For as by one man's disobedience MANY were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

Ask yourself: How many were made sinners “by one man's disobedience?”

When you have that answer you”ll know just how many will be made righteous.

Well if this was the only verse then there would be no argument- you would be right. But there are numerous verses on this topic and given that one "many" is a noun and the other an adjective makes a lot of difference. You should study grammar to know the difference

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUGDED every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. (Rev 20:13-14)

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15)

And here is a second witness:

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (1 Cor 3:13)

What fire do you suppose that is?

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE. (1 Cor 3:14-15)

Yes we will most certainly be saved by fire.

Sadly you are conflating two separate judgments and making them the same which they are most certainly not!

The Corinthians passage is the Bema seat judgment which is for believers alone. It is to judge works done in Jesus name of they are gold silver and precious stones or wood hay and stubble. Every one before this seat are saved and it is the basis for crowns Here works are judged.

The revelation judgment is the great white throne judgment which is for all the lost and those alive at the end of the millennial kingdom. Here people are judged. And they are cast into teh lake after death and the grave are destroyed.

And as Rev. 14 says about those who took the mark:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

There is no rest from the torment and their torment ascends forever and ever!

As it is written:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

there is no second chance after death.

 

[Beebster]

Why was he eating fish with the disciples?

[

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say...................because pork chops weren't on the menu. LOL

 

[Beebster]

So you disagree with Paul and believe salvation is by grace through faith and maintaining X amount of works. Paul wrote of that in Galatians 1.

I do not disagree with Paul, but please feel free to show me where you think I fault.

Well what you seem to think it means and what it means are vastly different.

And to declare Jesus is Kurios is to accept His deity.

No it is to accept his supreme authority; It is to know and obey him.

Now before you get all wound up let me just state this:

Christ is God.

He is the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, the Holy One, the Comforter, the Redeemer, the Husband, one body, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Lamb of God, the water of life, the tree of life, the book of life the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

He is also Our Father and so much more.

What he is not is “his Father” or some equal part to a three part deity.

And Christ has a doctrine:

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both THE FATHER AND THE SON. (2 John 1:19)

And guess what? You can confess and believe this all day long;

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Rom 10:9)

-but, if you don’t obey Christ’s doctrine you will not be in that first resurrection.

But only Jesus body died.

That is false.

Yes, Jesus’ physical body died but so too did his soul.

To state otherwise is to claim that Christ has not risen from the dead.

So Jesus physically rose from the dead. that is absolutely obvious.

No he did not and it is only obvious to those who do not believe Paul-

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
(1 Cor 15:44-45)

-or Jesus Christ:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: - (John 6:63)

You seem to think the flesh profits everything and the spirit nothing.

Paul even wrote that if Jesus did not rise (ana-stasis= a standing again) then you are still in your sin.

That’s not true either. You should actually quote the scripture if you’re going to prove the word out.

And if Christ be not raised (egeiro g1453), your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (1 Cor 15:17)

But Jesus is equally god as His Father and jesus physically rose or stood up again in the body He died with.

And yet the Father is greater than the son.

Jesus may have appeared in the body he died with but he surely was not resurrected into it.

Well if this was the only verse then there would be no argument- you would be right. But there are numerous verses on this topic and given that one "many" is a noun and the other an adjective makes a lot of difference. You should study grammar to know the difference

I don’t need to study grammar to understand contrast.

For as by one man's disobedience MANY were made sinners, (That “MANY” is everybody)
“so by”
the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous. , (That “MANY” is also everybody)

Sadly you are conflating two separate judgments and making them the same which they are most certainly not!

And sadly, you’re not familiar with this scriptural principle:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Pet 1:20)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life. (John 6:63)

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing SPIRITUAL THINGS with SPIRITUAL (the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT John 6:63). (1 Cor 2:13)

The Corinthians passage is the Bema seat judgment which is for believers alone.

Says who?

It is to judge works done in Jesus name of they are gold silver and precious stones or wood hay and stubble. Every one before this seat are saved and it is the basis for crowns Here works are judged.

Really? If they are saved why do they need to be judged?
Show me just how you came to that conclusion and please use scripture to prove it.

The revelation judgment is the great white throne judgment which is for all the lost and those alive at the end of the millennial kingdom. Here people are judged. And they are cast into teh lake after death and the grave are destroyed.

Well as I said, you must be destroyed in order to be saved.

Are you suggesting Christ has two judgement seats? Are you saying the Bema seat and the white throne are different?

Also, do you think that he physically sits in his throne and that people physically stand in front of this throne?

There is no rest from the torment and their torment ascends forever and ever!

The term “forever and ever” is one found in fairy tales and has no business being in scripture.

As it is written:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

there is no second chance after death.

The only chance you have is after death.

I look forward to your response. Peace.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do not disagree with Paul, but please feel free to show me where you think I fault.

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version

​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 10:9-13

King James Version

​

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Galatians 2:16

King James Version

​

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4

King James Version

​

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

What he is not is “his Father” or some equal part to a three part deity.

So you deny the seity of christ?

And sadly, you’re not familiar with this scriptural principle:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Pet 1:20)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life. (John 6:63)

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing SPIRITUAL THINGS with SPIRITUAL (the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT John 6:63). (1 Cor 2:13)

And what does this have to do with the fact that teh Bema judgment and the great white throne are separate events?

Well as I said, you must be destroyed in order to be saved.

Are you suggesting Christ has two judgement seats? Are you saying the Bema seat and the white throne are different?

Also, do you think that he physically sits in his throne and that people physically stand in front of this throne?

The Bema is teh judgment for believers to judge their works.

Teh great white throne is the judgment of all the lost and those survivors of the millennial kingdom.

Really? If they are saved why do they need to be judged?
Show me just how you came to that conclusion and please use scripture to prove it.

Teh saints are not judged, but their works are.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

King James Version

​

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The term “forever and ever” is one found in fairy tales and has no business being in scripture.

Well you can take that up with god.

Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 4:9
And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Revelation 4:10
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Revelation 5:14
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:12
Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 10:6
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever

Revelation 19:3
And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

So you either think Scripture is a fairy tale, or maybe you should read it more.

 

[Beebster]

Ephesians 2:8-10​

King James Version​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ah. So you assumed that when I said:

Do you have to be circumcised to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to be baptized to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to be destroyed to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to repent to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to obey the doctrine of Christ to be saved? Yes.

Do you have to endure to the end to be saved? Yes.

I was speaking of man's works.

Well, you know what they say about making assumptions.

Let's go through what I said:

Do you have to be circumcised to be saved? Yes.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col_2:11)

Second witness:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:29)

Do you have to be baptized to be saved? Yes.

I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. (Mar 1:8)

Second witness:

He that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mar 16:16)

Do you have to be destroyed to be saved? Yes.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction OF THE FLESH, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5)

Second witness:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:6)

Do you have to repent to be saved? Yes.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Act 3:19)

Second witness:

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT YOU REPENT. (Rev 2:5)

Do you have to obey the doctrine of Christ to be saved? Yes.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1Ti 4:16)

Second witness:

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, HATH NOT GOD. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2Jn 1:9)

Do you have to endure to the end to be saved? Yes.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE SAVED. (Mat 24:13)

Second witness:

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same sSHALL BE SAVED. (Mar 13:13)

So, I truly hope now Ronald you see that there is much more to being saved than to:

confess with your mouth the deity of Jesus Christ and believe in your heart He physically rose from the dead

Peace.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ah. So you assumed that when I said:

I was speaking of man's works.

Well, you know what they say about making assumptions.

Let's go through what I said:


In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col_2:11)

Second witness:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:29)


I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. (Mar 1:8)

Second witness:

He that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mar 16:16)


To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction OF THE FLESH, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5)

Second witness:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:6)


Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Act 3:19)

Second witness:

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT YOU REPENT. (Rev 2:5)


Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1Ti 4:16)

Second witness:

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, HATH NOT GOD. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (2Jn 1:9)


But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE SAVED. (Mat 24:13)

Second witness:

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same sSHALL BE SAVED. (Mar 13:13)

So, I truly hope now Ronald you see that there is much more to being saved than to:



Peace.

Then you should add what you were trying to say so your words which have a distinct meaning will not be misconstrued.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Everything you wrote normally carries afar differing meaning than what you were ultimately trying to say. You set yourself up to be misunderstood.

 

[Beebster]

Then you should add what you were trying to say so your words which have a distinct meaning will not be misconstrued.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Everything you wrote normally carries afar differing meaning than what you were ultimately trying to say. You set yourself up to be misunderstood.

Wow, way to blame me for your false assumptions; what a cop-out.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Wow, way to blame me for your false assumptions; what a cop-out.

I merely responded to your words which were misleadimng and only partial quotes that describe the fact that all those things are done by Jesus at our reception of Him by faith.

I think you were purposely being elusive and giving only partial statements to create a "gotcha" situation.

 

[Beebster]

I merely responded to your words which were misleadimng and only partial quotes that describe the fact that all those things are done by Jesus at our reception of Him by faith.

No, those were not quotes “partial” or otherwise.

They were questions that I immediately answered. Which you failed to recognize which seems odd since you are the one telling me to study grammar:

You should study grammar to know the difference

Apparently what I said struck a nerve, which is strange, since you admit:

Everything you wrote normally carries afar differing meaning than what you were ultimately trying to say.

I wasn’t trying to say anything; I flat out said it.

And why didn’t you just say something like: “yes those are true statements all those things are done by Jesus at our reception of Him by faith.”

urposely

What possessed you to think I was talking about physical baptism and physical circumcision and man’s work since you claim:

“all those things are done by Jesus at our reception of Him by faith.”

Why accuse me of disagreeing with Paul?

Could it be because to admit that everything I stated there was true would mean that your statement here was false:

“confess with your mouth the deity of Jesus Christ and believe in your heart He physically rose from the dead, you will be saved!

Which Paul, of course, never said.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; (2 Tim 4:3)

If I were you, I’d stop putting words in Paul’s mouth.

But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: (Tit 2:1)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, those were not quotes “partial” or otherwise.

They were questions that I immediately answered. Which you failed to recognize which seems odd since you are the one telling me to study grammar:

Oh I fully recognized th everses you then finished the quotes from. but the partial statements you made in a normal usual expected reading mean something far different then what you subsequently wrote. You even know that. I still believe you wrote them as some sort of "gotcha" statements. If not you would have written the verses that showed your intent. but you hid them initially.

I wasn’t trying to say anything; I flat out said it.

And why didn’t you just say something like: “yes those are true statements all those things are done by Jesus at our reception of Him by faith.”

You have to do more to convince me you werent saying anything.

when one says a person needs to be circumcised- the normal spirit filled believer will automatically think you are promoting physical castration.

And I did say something similar to that once you revealed what you were gfetting at .

What possessed you to think I was talking about physical baptism and physical circumcision and man’s work since you claim:

If you read any threads on this forum you would know why.

Why accuse me of disagreeing with Paul?

Could it be because to admit that everything I stated there was true would mean that your statement here was false:

Well you wrote these in answer to my statement that all those things were done by Jesus at our salvation. so when you revealed your full statement I agree with you.

But this has gone far enough. Have the last word if you wish.

Which Paul, of course, never said.

Which oif course He did say!

Romans 10