THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[Johann]

Your explanation contains an inadvertent contradiction and actually makes my point. You defeat your argument when you rightly point out that the "word of a person co-exists with himself . . . " which you rightly clarify as a product of the mind. Since the word of God is the product of God's mind, then it is NOT an appellation for a person.

Given your definition, John is saying "In the Beginning was a product of God's mind . . . and I would agree with you. Even so, the specific product of God's mind John has in view is a promise God made, specifically, the promise of life and enlightenment and it was a light that couldn't be extinguished.

Then I went on to say--

Moreover that "The Word" or "Logos" denotes a person, and not merely an attribute/"It/Plan/product of the mind—as Wisdom or Reason—is evident from this passage, as well as all the places where mentioned in the references here given. For evidence that by "The Voice" or "Word of Jehovah," the Jews at and before the coming of Christ had been accustomed to designate the Messiah, see Townsend’s Dissertation on the Logos, N.T. Chronology, pp. 7 and seq. (William De Burgh, New Marginal Readings and References to the Gospels, p. 222). FS101, +Deu_32:42, Jhn_1:14, Isa_49:1-2, Heb_4:12-13; Heb_6:1, 1Pe_1:25, 1Jn_1:1-2; 1Jn_5:7, *Rev_19:13.


John 1:1-14: The Logos (Word) is fully divine and was with God in the beginning, distinct yet united in essence with the Father. The Logos became flesh (incarnation), not a mere plan, but a person.

John 10:30: Jesus affirms His unity with the Father. “I and the Father are one.” This cannot be understood as a mere plan of salvation but a relational truth about the person of Jesus.

Colossians 2:9: “For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” This passage asserts that the fullness of God’s nature resides in Jesus, underlining that He is divine, not an impersonal plan or concept.

Matthew 1:23: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). The incarnation is about God Himself coming to dwell with humanity, not just a plan or abstract idea of redemption.

3. Historical Theological Argument: The Nature of Christ in Early Christian Thought
The Doctrine of the Trinity: The foundational Christian belief is that God exists as One Being in Three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In this doctrine, Jesus (the Son) is fully divine, not an abstract concept or “plan.”

The early Church affirmed that Jesus is consubstantial (of the same essence) with the Father, eternally begotten, not created, and distinct in personhood.

Key Texts: Nicene Creed (325 A.D.), Athanasian Creed.
The Incarnation: The act of God becoming human in the person of Jesus Christ is central to Christian salvation. Jesus is not a mechanical plan for salvation, but the embodiment of God's redemptive will.

Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D.): This council established the two natures of Christ—fully God and fully man. The idea that Jesus is not an impersonal plan but a person with two natures is crucial to orthodox Christology.

4. Christ as a Divine Person in the Economy of Salvation
Jesus' Role in Redemption: Jesus’ role in salvation cannot be separated from His personhood. His death and resurrection were not merely the fulfillment of a plan but the actual act of the divine Son of God offering Himself for the redemption of humanity.

Hebrews 9:14: “How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.” This emphasizes that Jesus, as a person, enacted salvation, not just an abstract plan.

The Relationship Between Father and Son: The relationship between God the Father and Jesus the Son is relational and personal, as evidenced by passages like John 17:24 (Jesus speaks of the love the Father has for Him before the foundation of the world).

5. Theological Critique: Views of Jesus as an Impersonal “It” or “Plan”

Unitarian and Non-Trinitarian Views: Some theological positions, such as Unitarianism or certain forms of deism, might regard Jesus as a created agent or a plan of God’s will, without recognizing His eternal deity and personhood. These views reduce the significance of Jesus' divine nature and His personal role in God’s salvation plan.

Christian Response: Orthodox Christian theology holds that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, not an impersonal plan or abstract concept. Any notion that reduces Jesus to an "it" or "plan" fails to recognize His divinity and His role as the Savior of the world. Jesus' humanity and divinity are both necessary for the atonement, and His work is not a mere fulfillment of a plan but the living action of the God-man.

6. Conclusion: The Person of Jesus in Christian Doctrine
Jesus is not an "it" or a "plan", but the eternal Son of God, fully divine and fully human. His role in salvation is not that of a mere instrument but the central figure in God's redemptive plan.
Summary of Key Points: The theological and biblical evidence consistently affirms that Jesus is a person with a distinct role in the Trinity and in salvation history. His divinity, expressed in the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection, cannot be reduced to an impersonal "plan" or "idea."

So you prove my point, which is the biblical one.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

In the beginning was the word and ....AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

He was with God in the beginning..,who was with God in the beginning?

Notice HE..who is HE?

​

◄ John 1 ►

​

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ The Beginning (Genesis 1:1–2; Hebrews 11:1–3) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

 

[keithr]

SEE, even the demons know the Triune God is Echad

How does demons believing that "God is one" or "there is one God" imply that they believe in a Triune God? Have you been so brainwashed that you that you can't see how absurd such statements are?! You're trying to force the Scripture to fit your belief rather, than force your belief to fit the Scriptures.

 

[David in NJ]

Then I went on to say--

Moreover that "The Word" or "Logos" denotes a person, and not merely an attribute/"It/Plan/product of the mind—as Wisdom or Reason—is evident from this passage, as well as all the places where mentioned in the references here given. For evidence that by "The Voice" or "Word of Jehovah," the Jews at and before the coming of Christ had been accustomed to designate the Messiah, see Townsend’s Dissertation on the Logos, N.T. Chronology, pp. 7 and seq. (William De Burgh, New Marginal Readings and References to the Gospels, p. 222). FS101, +Deu_32:42, Jhn_1:14, Isa_49:1-2, Heb_4:12-13; Heb_6:1, 1Pe_1:25, 1Jn_1:1-2; 1Jn_5:7, *Rev_19:13.


John 1:1-14: The Logos (Word) is fully divine and was with God in the beginning, distinct yet united in essence with the Father. The Logos became flesh (incarnation), not a mere plan, but a person.

John 10:30: Jesus affirms His unity with the Father. “I and the Father are one.” This cannot be understood as a mere plan of salvation but a relational truth about the person of Jesus.

Colossians 2:9: “For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” This passage asserts that the fullness of God’s nature resides in Jesus, underlining that He is divine, not an impersonal plan or concept.

Matthew 1:23: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). The incarnation is about God Himself coming to dwell with humanity, not just a plan or abstract idea of redemption.

3. Historical Theological Argument: The Nature of Christ in Early Christian Thought
The Doctrine of the Trinity: The foundational Christian belief is that God exists as One Being in Three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In this doctrine, Jesus (the Son) is fully divine, not an abstract concept or “plan.”

The early Church affirmed that Jesus is consubstantial (of the same essence) with the Father, eternally begotten, not created, and distinct in personhood.

Key Texts: Nicene Creed (325 A.D.), Athanasian Creed.
The Incarnation: The act of God becoming human in the person of Jesus Christ is central to Christian salvation. Jesus is not a mechanical plan for salvation, but the embodiment of God's redemptive will.

Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D.): This council established the two natures of Christ—fully God and fully man. The idea that Jesus is not an impersonal plan but a person with two natures is crucial to orthodox Christology.

4. Christ as a Divine Person in the Economy of Salvation
Jesus' Role in Redemption: Jesus’ role in salvation cannot be separated from His personhood. His death and resurrection were not merely the fulfillment of a plan but the actual act of the divine Son of God offering Himself for the redemption of humanity.

Hebrews 9:14: “How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.” This emphasizes that Jesus, as a person, enacted salvation, not just an abstract plan.

The Relationship Between Father and Son: The relationship between God the Father and Jesus the Son is relational and personal, as evidenced by passages like John 17:24 (Jesus speaks of the love the Father has for Him before the foundation of the world).

5. Theological Critique: Views of Jesus as an Impersonal “It” or “Plan”

Unitarian and Non-Trinitarian Views: Some theological positions, such as Unitarianism or certain forms of deism, might regard Jesus as a created agent or a plan of God’s will, without recognizing His eternal deity and personhood. These views reduce the significance of Jesus' divine nature and His personal role in God’s salvation plan.

Christian Response: Orthodox Christian theology holds that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, not an impersonal plan or abstract concept. Any notion that reduces Jesus to an "it" or "plan" fails to recognize His divinity and His role as the Savior of the world. Jesus' humanity and divinity are both necessary for the atonement, and His work is not a mere fulfillment of a plan but the living action of the God-man.

6. Conclusion: The Person of Jesus in Christian Doctrine
Jesus is not an "it" or a "plan", but the eternal Son of God, fully divine and fully human. His role in salvation is not that of a mere instrument but the central figure in God's redemptive plan.
Summary of Key Points: The theological and biblical evidence consistently affirms that Jesus is a person with a distinct role in the Trinity and in salvation history. His divinity, expressed in the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection, cannot be reduced to an impersonal "plan" or "idea."

So you prove my point, which is the biblical one.

J.

the impetus of jw doctrine is to un-deify the Lord Jesus Christ so that HE is not of the SAME BEING with His FATHER who is God.

Thus their creation of creating 'Jesus' as God's purpose/plan/methodology for salvation = in other words Jesus is a 'tool'

Now, you know and i know, the expression 'don't be a tool' is derogatory as it delineates a person as easily manipulated(dumb).

This 'tool' association with Jesus allows their erroneous belief to become 'self-justification' in the aspect they believe they have the pure truth of worshipping "one God" whereby Jesus is not part of their 'God' = SAME sin as the Pharisees = monotheism

 

[David in NJ]

@Johann

Take a look at this passage.

And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

i know what i am SEEING here and i believe you do as well - dwell on that and you can derive a FACTUAL basis for explaining to the jw adherent as to that which validates our position which is the Scriptural Position of Truth.

 

[David in NJ]

How does demons believing that "God is one" or "there is one God" imply that they believe in a Triune God? Have you been so brainwashed that you that you can't see how absurd such statements are?! You're trying to force the Scripture to fit your belief rather, than force your belief to fit the Scriptures.

Love your post here @keithr = gave me a good lol

 

[Johann]

the impetus of jw doctrine is to un-deify the Lord Jesus Christ so that HE is not of the SAME BEING with His FATHER who is God.

Thus their creation of creating 'Jesus' as God's purpose/plan/methodology for salvation = in other words Jesus is a 'tool'

Now, you know and i know, the expression 'don't be a tool' is derogatory as it delineates a person as easily manipulated(dumb).

This 'tool' association with Jesus allows their erroneous belief to become 'self-justification' in the aspect they believe they have the pure truth of worshipping "one God" whereby Jesus is not part of their 'God' = SAME sin as the Pharisees = monotheism

You can see it plainly-the efforts to strip our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, of His deity, claiming He was "a created being" and therefore "lesser" or inferior to the Father, despite the clear testimony of Scripture to the contrary!

I usually don’t engage with such posters for too long, brother.

Stay strong IN Christ and shalom to you and family.

Johann.

 

[Scott Downey]

Certainly, @ProDeo. Stick closely to the Scriptures, and I can also share numerous writings from the early church fathers and ancient Jewish sources that affirm Jesus is indeed God as revealed in this verse. If the Messiah were not God in the flesh, we would be left with an impotent Savior, my brother.

Keep the faith!

J.

Only God can forgive sins.

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Mark 2

1 And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 [a]Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has [b]power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

 

[Johann]

Only God can forgive sins.

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Mark 2

1 And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 [a]Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has [b]power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

Amen to this @Scott Downey.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

And concerning the use of "god" (small "g"), that is simply another word used to describe the Sons of God, aka the spiritual-Beings/angels.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you (your spirit-Beings) [are] children of the Most High.

John 10:34-36
10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are gods?
10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the Word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;
10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

What about 'Lord God' ???

 

[RedFan]

I think too few grasp the significance of a contradiction. I know you have a legal background. How would a court handle even an apparent contradiction?

When testimony or evidence offered to prove a question of fact is contradictory, the party bearing the burden of proof must convince the finder of fact (judge or jury)that the burden has been met. That party either succeeds or fails.

When a statute or a contract or other document has apparently contradictory provisions, various legal maxims are applied to ferret out the intent of the legislature or creator(s) of the contract or other document. These include (1) reading the entire statute or document as a whole; (2) presuming that no words were superfluous; (3) construing ambiguities against the drafter; (4) the more specific controls over the more general; (5) the expression of one item is deemed to imply the exclusion of the other items; (6) the conduct of the parties involved in creating a document subsequent to creating it is evidence of their meaning. These are just a few examples of many.

 

[Ritajanice]

Only God can forgive sins.

By the power of his Holy Spirit were my sins forgiven....I am right before my God and am clothed in the righteousness of Christ...God sees me like his Son..we are partakers Of the divine nature, by Gods Living testimony his Living Holy Spirit.
We are joint heirs with Christ..what an honour and privilege that is!

 

[Grailhunter]

Not so-

was the Word. Note.—No title could be conceived more clearly expressive not only of the pre-existence of Christ, but of his essential Divinity as co-eternal with God than this—The Word, ο λογος;—for as the word of a person co-exists with himself, and is that in which the mind or thought of man is embodied, in order to be declared or made known, and by which the spirit in man is revealed, so did Christ in his eternal and pre-existent nature as "The Word" co-exist with God, who in him also is embodied for manifestation, declared and revealed, as below, Jhn_1:18—’the same, the self, the same very self as thought, or any act of the mind.’

Moreover that "The Word" or "Logos" denotes a person, and not merely an attribute—as Wisdom or Reason—is evident from this passage, as well as all the places where mentioned in the references here given. For evidence that by "The Voice" or "Word of Jehovah," the Jews at and before the coming of Christ had been accustomed to designate the Messiah, see Townsend’s Dissertation on the Logos, N.T. Chronology, pp. 7 and seq. (William De Burgh, New Marginal Readings and References to the Gospels, p. 222). FS101, +Deu_32:42, Jhn_1:14, Isa_49:1-2, Heb_4:12-13; Heb_6:1, 1Pe_1:25, 1Jn_1:1-2; 1Jn_5:7, *Rev_19:13.

and the Word. FS101, +Deu_32:42, By Hyperbaton, the subject, "the Word," being defined by the article which is prefixed to it, can be placed at the end of two of the clauses, and in each case we are to put the stress on "the Word." FS77, +Exo_3:19, Bengel notes that "when the predicate precedes the subject, there is an epitasis (an emphatic enlargement of the subject)" as also in Jhn_4:24 (New Testament Word Studies, vol. 1, p. 543). *Jhn_10:30-33; +**Jhn_20:28, +*Psa_45:6, +*Isa_7:14; +*Isa_9:6; Isa_40:9-11, Mat_1:23, *Rom_9:5, **Php_2:6 note. *1Ti_3:16, **Tit_2:13, *Heb_1:8-13, **2Pe_1:1 g. 1Jn_5:7; 1Jn_5:20.

The Word (ho logos). Logos is from legō, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logos is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatikos logos for the generative principle in nature.

The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Pro_8:23. Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John’s standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logos, but not John’s conception of personal pre-existence.

The term Logos is applied to Christ only in Jhn_1:1, Jhn_1:14; Rev_19:13; 1Jn_1:1 “concerning the Word of life” (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of “the Word of God” in Heb_4:12. But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul (2Co_8:9; Php_2:6.; Col_1:17) and in Heb_1:2. and in Jhn_17:5. This term suits John’s purpose better than sophia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos “became flesh” (sarx egeneto, Jhn_1:14) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning the Word existed; and the Word was face to face with God; yea, the Word was God Himself.
Joh 1:2 He is the One who was face to face with God in the beginning.
Joh 1:3 It was through Him that everything came into existence, and apart from Him not a single thing came into existence.
Joh 1:4 It was by Him that life began to exist, and that life was the light of mankind.

J.

The concept of the Logos is a 6th century BC Greek concept.

God the Father, over a dozen times says that He was the only God in the Old Testament and there was no other. Did He Lie? I am sure He did not.

Secondly the Old Testament does not directly indicate the presence or activity of Yeshua in the Old Testament. And again I will say I would not have any trouble believing that Yeshua was active in the Old Testament if the scriptures made it clear that He was.

And again I acknowledge that the New Testament indicates that He was pre-existent and is the Creator God….Was God the Father demoted to janitor? Either way I do not think that Yahweh is a liar so there has to be more to the story as presented in the New Testament.

 

[A Freeman]

What about 'Lord God' ???

As in this?

Deuteronomy 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD (God) said unto my Lord (Christ), Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Short commentary.

Do Jehovah's Witnesses worship God?
They believe that Jehovah is the only true god, the creator of all things, and the "Universal Sovereign". They believe that all worship should be directed toward him, and that he is not part of a Trinity; consequently, the group places more emphasis on God than on Christ.


I do too...Amen!

Amen!!!.JWS.....there is only one God who can be worshipped...I never worship Jesus , I just thank him deeply from the depths of my heart/ spirit! I also thank God for his precious Holy Spirit who idwells my heart, when God chose to birth my spirit...into his.

 

[Ritajanice]

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

Wonderful!!!!..Praise God for that truth!

 

[Johann]

The concept of the Logos is a 6th century BC Greek concept.

I am aware of this-Heraclitus, who used it to describe the rational principle that orders the universe. For Heraclitus, the Logos was an impersonal force, representing logic and structure in nature. Later Greek philosophers, like the Stoics, expanded on this idea as a universal rational principle.

Our Scriptures, however, are deeply rooted in Jewish heritage, rich with Jewish customs and culture, and our Savior Himself is Jewish.

J.

 

[RedFan]

I am aware of this-Heraclitus, who used it to describe the rational principle that orders the universe. For Heraclitus, the Logos was an impersonal force, representing logic and structure in nature. Later Greek philosophers, like the Stoics, expanded on this idea as a universal rational principle.

Our Scriptures, however, are deeply rooted in Jewish heritage, rich with Jewish customs and culture, and our Savior Himself is Jewish.

J.

We probably should drag Philo into the mix here.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am aware of this-Heraclitus, who used it to describe the rational principle that orders the universe. For Heraclitus, the Logos was an impersonal force, representing logic and structure in nature. Later Greek philosophers, like the Stoics, expanded on this idea as a universal rational principle.

Our Scriptures, however, are deeply rooted in Jewish heritage, rich with Jewish customs and culture, and our Savior Himself is Jewish.

J.

So?

 

[Ritajanice]

There is no name above the Name Of Jesus...that is truth.

No earthly man is above the Name Of Jesus...he was the first born to Almighty God...we follow Jesus because we are Born Of The Spirit...we were bought for a price, no one can pluck us from him,,for we are in him ,we are in his righteousness ....spirit children.