THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[Ritajanice]

Not an interpretation, Jesus actually said those things, they are clearly said.

John 5 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

Luke 10 22 All[g] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

You won't know God unless Jesus reveals God to you, which also proves they are God and in control of all things. God gave to Christ all His authority and power as in God's authority and power was also given to the Son, the Father gave to the Son, as an inheritance from Father to Son. So it is shared between them.
So when you Honor the Son, you Honor the Father
and when you honor the Father, you are honoring the Son.

Don’t agree....you thank them individually ...,your post with respect is confusing, as I’m sure mine are to you.

It is also why Jesus said to Philip,

John 14:8-9
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

They really are linked together as one uncreated God.

Don’t agree.
You don’t know God unless the Spirit testifies Of him to your spirit, when we become Born Again...

Praise , Glory Honour goes to God thanking him for giving us a chance to be reunited back to our maker God, by sending Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb ...that was slain for us....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What's funny is you cannot recognize the presumptions you make to "support" your doctrine.

whats even more funny is you can not prove that adam did not see God. Now can you explain how adam walked personally with God and he did nto see him

 

[keithr]

QUESTION - Who did the Greater Work?

The FATHER delivering the Israelites from bondage under Pharoah/Egypt
or
the SON who delivers those bound by sin unto Eternal Forgiveness and Eternal Life?

God, our Father in heaven, directed both activities. God sent an angel, or Jesus, to perform the plagues and maintain the pillar of cloud and pillar of fire to lead the Israelites. God sent His only begotten son, Jesus, to be the saviour and redeemer of mankind. The result of the second work (opening up the opportunity for eternal life for all mankind) is obviously greater, but all glory should be given to God, our heavenly Father.

Philippians 2:11

(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

1 Peter 4:11

(11) If anyone speaks, let it be as it were the very words of God. If anyone serves, let it be as of the strength which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

Revelation 4:11

(11) “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for you created all things, and because of your desire they existed, and were created!”​

Revelation 7:12

(12) saying, “Amen! Blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving, honor, power, and might, be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”​

Remember, 1 Corinthians 8:6 (ESV):

(6) yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

 

[Eternally Grateful]

My face ye cannot see , but shall see my most hinderparts . No man in the flesh has SEEN GOD in all HIS GLORY .
Not in ALL HIS GLORY . they may have seen His angel in the appearance of man but never once
has man seen the actual face of GOD in all HIS GLORY . no flesh could survive . Thank the LORD
one day we shall have new bodies and we shall see HIS face then .

Adam was perfect at one time

After the fall. Yes. We could not see him, But God also can take the form of a man, as the angel of God did with Abraham and others.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is what @Eternally Grateful does not get. There is no such thing as proof by assertion. Asserting a certain verse or chapter proves something does not make it so. In this way, they are misquoting Scripture, asserting it means something the author did not intend, out of context, etc. For instance, Jesus is "OF" God. This is a preposition, not a verb meaning "IS."

It's easy to show the abuse of reference Trinitarians are forced to rely on. One thing we know they will not do is admit any relative weakness in the IDOL. They often assert "mountains of Scripture evidence" but cannot actually point to a single verse that states their doctrine. They rely on aritifical synthesis, a snip here added to a snip there. Any doctrine can be "supported" in this way. I'm embarassed for them. I suppose this is what IDOLATRY looks like.

lol

Dude, I have so many passages, Any of them by themselves would show the truth.

I suggest you stop trying to tell me what I do or do not do.

 

[IronMaiden]

IF what you mean by the THREE equals one
is GOD IS HIS SPIRIT HE IS HIS WORD , THEN AMEN cause that is a fact . HIS SPIRIT and HIS WORD are HIS OWN ESSENCE
that cometh forth of THE FATHER . THE SPIRIT OF GOD , IS THE SAME AS THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST .
My words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE .
I will send you the comforter . How will you manifest yourself to us and not the world .
BY THE SPIRIT . I WILL COME TO YOU , in fact HE says a bit farther one ME AND MY FATHER SHALL MAKE OUR ABODE
on that man . Tis why you often see paul write and say the SPIRIT OF GOD , SPIRIT OF CHRIST ,
GOD IS HIS SPIRIT HE IS HIS WORD . to the trenches for the father of lies
has brought the lie that will merge all the false to be as one , the false religoins and those within christendom that were LIP ONLY
and used HIS NAME as a means FOR SIN and A LIE . it cannot be stopped my friend .
I never seen a falling away , a delusion like the one i see today .
THEY are convincing even christendome to REMOVE THE CORNER STONE
and to build in their diverse inclusive tower WHICH HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CORNER STONE , NO FOUNDATION
it denies THAT CORNERSTONE and it will SINK in utter desteructoin on the day ofthe LORD . they build in vain friend .
THEY who build in the intefaith tower which they believe shall reach to heaven , WILLL COME crashing down
on the day of the LORD . and the very peace and safety of the world they so sought and beleived
this interfaith willl usher upon this world , USHERS ONLY SUDDEN DESTRUcTION upon them all ON THE DAY of the LORD .
they gots no idea satan has led them to their own destruction by appearing to be so lovingand so kind and so braod path .

Beloved friends, let’s totally adore the existence of the Trinity and keep it prominent in our worship. Remember, you cannot pray without the Trinity. Let’s know without a doubt that the full work of salvation requires a Trinity. You cannot draw near to the Father except through the Son, and by the Holy Spirit. 3 = 1

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are fully indoctrinated as it has been proven many different ways and many times.

Same could be said of you my friend.

In fact. You have not proven me wrong yet. Just given me your opnion.

What constitutes proof for you and do you apply this very same standard to the anti-Biblical claim or do you merely accept 3=1 as a given?

Again, The trinity is a subject that is beyond our comprehension.

You can keep posting the 3 = 1 nonsense all you want.

All I have to do is prove the HS is an entity, and he is God. This is more than proven in scripture

and prove that Jesus was alive before Abraham (which is proven beyond all shadow of a doubt) and then determine, is he a created being, and angel. or God.

Now you see. I may not be able to prove to you (you are set in your way it appears) But I can determine for myself what to believe. and you have not given me any reason to doubt what I believe.

so keep attacking with your silly strawman.,. This further shows me that I must be right. because all you have is these silly strawman

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful - I have the feeling that even if I could bring back the author (from the dead) of that parenthesis to explain when and why it was added, I still wouldn't receive any acknowledgment from you or Scott.

Would you say that's an accurate assessment of the situation?

F2F

If you could do that. Then I would relent, And it would not matter, because I do nto need that verse to prove my point.

But you can;t do that. so you have your opinion, I have mine.

I will not judge you for that opinion of this verse. all i ask is the same from you..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wow where is a bucket of water when we need it! Youre on fire tonight!

Thomas' confession acknowledges that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead, but it does not serve as a declaration that Jesus is "God the Son." As a Jew, Thomas used a form of expression common in the Old Testament, where accredited representatives of God are referred to as "God." For example, angels are called "God" in passages such as Gen. 16:7 (cf. vs. 13), 22:8, 11, 15 (cf. vs. 16), and Exod. 23:20-21. Moses is referred to as a "god" to Pharaoh in Exod. 7:1, where "god" is translated from the Hebrew word "elohim." This term, translated as "God," can also refer to the judges of Israel, as seen in Psa. 82:1, 6 (cf. John 10:34). It is also translated as "judges" in Exod. 21:6; 22:8, 9, and as "gods" (or "judges" in the margin) in Exod. 22:28.

I guess if you were a unitarian Jew you would know this.

F2F

So,

Thomas calls Jesus my lord and My God.

but that does not mean he declaired him as the son of God.

who then do you think he meant?

this is what I mean

 

[Scott Downey]

You say Jesus had no beginning, but the Scriptures call Jesus "the firstborn of all creation" in Col. 1:15.
Interesting, right?

Firstborn, having to do with Him being born as flesh and blood man into the world.

Hebrews 1:6
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

As the author of salvation, and their captain, He was first born, like the New Adam into flesh and blood.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Hebrews 5
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”

Colossians 1

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Christ as captain of our salvation led the way and we follow Him
To be an image of the invisible God, he reflects God in His image.
He is a visible image of an invisible God, God with a face on.

Since He took on flesh and blood he can fully empathize with us, the children of God who also have partaken of flesh and blood..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@St. SteVen even if it was explained to you it would fall through your fingers to the ground

Same could be said of you.

once again, Why is your pride so deep. do you really need to talk this way?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Aunty Jane and @Nancy and @Ritajanice

In the Light of the words of JESUS in His Gospel does anything 'jump out' at you on this passage???

Deuteronomy 5:6-7
I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

The same lord through the prophet Isaiah said this.

Isaiah 48:16
“Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

He was there in the begining
He never spoke in secret
He was sent by the lord God (father) and his spirit (holy Spirit)

 

[Scott Downey]

Beloved friends, let’s totally adore the existence of the Trinity and keep it prominent in our worship. Remember, you cannot pray without the Trinity. Let’s know without a doubt that the full work of salvation requires a Trinity. You cannot draw near to the Father except through the Son, and by the Holy Spirit. 3 = 1

Yes, the Son reveals to us the Father, and the work of God is that you believe in Him (Christ) whom He sent to earth.
It all ties together wonderfully, and the Spirit of God makes you born again whereby you can receive the things of God, from His Spirit to our spirits.

 

[Grailhunter]

I can't keep up with this discussion - the number of posts seems to be increasing exponentially! I'll contribute this extract from 'The Great Debate Regarding The Father, Son & Holy Spirit', appendix D, concerning John 1:1.

The only passage which even comes close to teaching the Trinity is 1 John 5:7, 8. But today it is common knowledge that the essential parts of this passage were not original scripture. The words at issue are an embellishment added to the text by an over-zealous scribe centuries after John died, and no reputable modern version even includes them.​

​

For this reason the focus of attention has turned to John 1:1. Clearly this does not teach the Trinity per se, because it does not even mention the holy Spirit, and one cannot have a "trinity" without three parties. But it does say "the Word was God" (King James translation), and this is close enough to one of the pieces of the Trinity to cause interest. What did John mean by this?​

​

There are three popular views:​

​

(1) He meant Jesus really was "God Himself"​

(2) He meant Jesus was "God-like"​

(3) He meant Jesus was "a god."​

​

Trinitarians are naturally drawn to the first view. But (other than all we have said above), this view is in danger of proving TOO MUCH -- that Jesus and God are the same person. Indeed, many trinitarians assert this without recognizing this is more like the heresy of Sabellius than the orthodox trinity.​

​

The problem becomes apparent when one compares John 1:1 with 1 John 1:2. Both texts are from the same author, about the same time, and express the same thoughts. John 1:1 says the Word was "with God," 1 John 1:2 says the Word was "with the Father." Clearly John intends that "God" was "the Father." Thus if John intends that the Word was "God Himself," he must mean the Word was "the Father" -- a conclusion no orthodox trinitarian can embrace. For this reason the majority of translators, including trinitarian translators, do not hold view one!​

​

Thus view 2. "When John said that the Word was God he was not saying that Jesus is identical with God; he was saying that Jesus is so perfectly the same as God in mind, in heart, in being, that in Jesus we perfectly see what God is like" (William Barclay, The Gospel of John, Vol. 1, page 17). In this camp are the following: William Barclay, Martin Vincent, J.P. Lange, Robert Young, Brook Foss Westcott, Kenneth Wuest, George Turner, Julius Mantey, H.E. Dana, Moulton and Moffat. Typical of this view is the REB translation: "The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was."​

​

It is possible that this was John's point. However, view 3 actually fits the context still better. As many Bible students are aware, the words "a" and "an" (called indefinite articles) do not exist in the Greek language. If one wished to say "I saw a tree," in Greek it would be "I saw tree" and everyone would know the intent is "a" tree. Therefore a translator would automatically supply it. This is done everywhere in the New Testament where the English word "a" or "an" appears.​

​

So in John 1:1. The text actually says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was [a?] God." Should the translator supply the intended "a" or not? That is the question. Contrary to many vocal claims on this issue, it is a sound and reasonable thing to do. C. H. Dodd, driving force of the NEB, acknowledges "As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted." (Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, 28, Jan. 1977, page 101ff, cited from James Parkinson, "The Herald," Sept-Oct 1966, page 23). Notice that the translators of the King James version had no hesitation in using "a god" in Acts 28:6 where the context makes it obvious. (It also belongs in John 10:33, as the logic of Jesus' reply shows.)​

​

A very good reason for adding "a" in John 1:1 is John 1:18, but the point is hidden in the King James version. Today it is generally acknowledged that the better, earlier Greek manuscripts of this verse refer to Jesus as "the only begotten god" (see the NASB for example). John there says no one has ever seen "God," but "the only begotten god, which is in the bosom of the Father," has appeared to declare what God is about. First it is clear that by "God" John means "the Father." Second it is clear that John has two gods in mind -- God himself, the unseen, and the son of God, Jesus, who in his own right is also a mighty being, "a god." Since John 1:18 distinguishes two mighty beings, it is apparent that John 1:1 also distinguishes two mighty beings.​

Good Job!
You are looking into this deeper than most people can.
Do not forget or maybe you know.....the Greek for the word....Word is Logos.....as in manifest is a 6th century BC Greek concept.

 

[Ritajanice]

Since He took on flesh and blood he can fully empathize with us, the children of God who also have partaken of flesh and blood

Partaken Of flesh and blood, can you please explain that?..is it biblical? I ask as I have no understanding of what that means?

 

[Scott Downey]

Partaken Of flesh and blood, can you please explain that?..is it biblical? I ask as I have no understanding of what that means?

We read this in Hebrews 2

Bringing Many Sons to Glory​

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Christ had to fully experience what it was like for us to live and suffer on the earth to truly be our great compassionate High Priest.
He then leads us to all the good things God has planned for us as the great shepherd of the sheep.

God and Christ are building up the family of God, which you are a member of, a person is born into a family and so we are born again into His family, which is why we are saved.


Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, the Son reveals to us the Father, and the work of God is that you believe in Him (Christ) whom He sent to earth.
It all ties together wonderfully, and the Spirit of God makes you born again whereby you can receive the things of God, from His Spirit to our spirits.

No, the Holy Spirit is the revealer Of Jesus, to our spirit..no good posting reams of scripture if you don’t have the Living Holy Spirit testifying the truth of God / Jesus to our hearts/ spirit...you need more than belief, even the demons believe and shudder..you must be Born Of The Spirit...a Born Again has a Living supernatural faith,he resides in our spirit, his name is the Holy Spirit.

No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ritajanice]

We read this in Hebrews 2

Bringing Many Sons to Glory​

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Christ had to fully experience what it was like for us to live and suffer on the earth to truly be out great compassionate High Priest.
He then leads us to all the good things God has planned for us as the great shepherd of the sheep.

God and Christ are building up the family of God, which you are a member of, a person is born into a family and so we are born again into His family, which is why we are saved.


Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I don’t understand any of that, I understand that I am a partaker Of the divine nature as I’m Born Of The Spirit.

 

[ElieG12]

...
Colossians 1

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Christ as captain of our salvation led the way and we follow Him
...

If that is the interpretation of the word "firstborn" for you, would you say that God the Father is also "Firstborn of all creation"?

 

[Marvelloustime]

You shall have NO other gods before me .
And even the angel knew that for he told JOHN to get up and to worship GOD not him .
YET I SURE SEEM to see lots of folks hollering in heaven and kneeling before CHRIST and casting crowns at HIS feet .
MY GLORY , MY GLORY shall i not give to another , said THE LORD GOD ALL MIGHTY .
and it is written THE LIGHT IS THE GLORY OF GOD and that the LIGHT IS CHRIST . HE IS THE GLORY OF GOD .
Many desire to DENY CHRIST and that wont bode well on the day of the LORD .
The angel told john twice , GET UP
Worship GOD .
The apostel peter and paul and others made simliar remarks unto men .
JESUS , WHEN THOMAS KNEELED BEFORE HIM and SAID MY LORD and MY GOD
NEVER SAID , get up thomas WORSHIP GOD . WHY YA THINK THAT WAS . I am alpha and omega , the first and the last .

@amigo de christo