THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[face2face]

The only reason Christ died was because He gave Himself up to His Father's will, and to death.

Correct....I'm going to provide you quotes to support

The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

In what way did Christ die to sin once and how does that sin relate to his death?

The law only had power over Him negate He voluntarily accepted the responsibility for every sin and iniquity of mankind.

Correct - but how were those sins represented in him?

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:24

How were your sins represented in his body on the tree?

Think Brakelite!

He personally knew no sin nor did He have any proclivity or propensity toward sin.

Incorrect! He had the ability to sin otherwise God had no Victory over Sin's Flesh!

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15

He had our weakness in nature which is why he can sympathize.

But die He most certainly did.

Complete and total death - cease to exist in everyway!

And when He became a man.

God's Word was sent forth and He had a Son through Mary!

He didn't leave anything behind. He was still the Son of God, but refused to use His divine prerogative for self defence.

He had no Divine prerogative as you are told

And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man. Luke 2:52

God has never explained the oneness of existence between Himself and His Son. It is a mystery known only to divinity.

No, the relationship between the Father and Son is well documented. What you mean to say is the dogma is not given explanation in the Word of God and for good reason!

This is why we must never attempt to explain it.

LOL you have taken the Mystery to the lengths the Jews did of using the Fathers name - wow surely someone of your intelligence can see the folly in this position?

Even if God did provide an explanation, it would probably be beyond our comprehension to understand it. Can the finite comprehend the infinite?

The exalted position of the Son of Man to become the Son of God with Power is very easy to understanding once you have the correct understanding. Lacking that will always end up with unintelligible mystery.

The Jews certainly realised though what Jesus was claiming. John recorded (this was after Jesus had said that He and His Father were one) “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” John 10:31-33 There can be no mistaking as to what the Jews understood Jesus to be saying. It was that He was God (theos). To many of the Jews, particularly the Scribes and the Pharisees, this was “blasphemy”.

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," but the Jews misunderstood His statement, assuming He was claiming equality with God (John 10:33). Trinitarians often make the same mistake. The oneness Jesus referred to is not a declaration that He is "Very God," but rather a unity of purpose. Consider the following evidence:

Jesus later prayed for His disciples, saying, "that they may be one, as we are" (John 17:11, 21). This clearly shows that the unity He spoke of extends to His disciples as well. The unity He refers to is not the shared power of the Godhead, but the unity that comes from being sanctified through the word of God (John 17:14, 17, 18).

In John 17:22-23, Jesus prays, "that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one..." These words emphasize a relationship between the disciples and Christ that mirrors the unity between the Son and the Father—a unity of purpose and perfection aligned with the divine will.

Unfortunately Brakelite, the dogma has removed your ability to read in context which means you draw to incorrect conclusions about the text.

If Christ had not been God then they would have been correct.

Another false conclusion.

Let me ask this question...If you do the Will of God perfectly could you claim equality in mind and purpose with God? Did men like Moses speak the Word of God with complete authority to do so?

The same reaction came when Jesus healed the impotent man on the Sabbath. John recorded (another of the signs to show that Christ was the Son of God) “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” John 5:16-18

"My Father worketh..." – There are two key points here:

1. Jesus was the Son of God (Not God Himself)
2. God did not cease working on the Sabbath

The Father resumed His work only after sin entered the world, as noted in Hebrews 4:9-10, where "own works" and "His works" are referenced.

Why highlight the Father/Son relationship? Consider the Fifth Commandment: "Honor thy father..." (Exodus 20:8-12). Compare this with John 5:23, which emphasizes that people must honor the relationship between the Father and the work He continues.

In John 5:19-20 The Father shows – The Son sees and does! Jesus personalized the record!

For some reason you equate equality in mind and purpose to mean you are God - this is flawed reasoning as the Angels do the Will of God and they are not Him Ps 103:20

We need to remember that John wrote his Gospel with the intent of proving Christ to be the Son of God (John 20:31)

Correct - Not God Himself - you state an important distinction

– which terminology means that Christ is God (John 1:1).

Then you fall and stumble over imported dogma...every time

We can see therefore why the Holy Spirit led this Gospel writer to select these discussions that Jesus had with the Jews. They tell us so much. They tell us how the Jews understood Christ’s words. Jesus though had not made Himself God.

Because he was not...he was a Son

His existence as a separate person from God was by the pleasure of the Father (Colossians 1:19). The Jews called God their Father. They must have realised therefore that Jesus was not claiming this in the same sense as they were claiming it else they would not have condemned Him for it. They must have understood Him to be claiming God as His Father in a very literal sense.

He was in a literal sense the Son of God BUT also the Son of Man!

This is why they said He was making Himself equal with God. Jesus did not say they had misunderstood His words. In personality He was not the one true God (the Father) but He was manifesting God in the flesh.

Correct - Jesus made known his Fathers Character and Will in how he lived - God was in Christ (mind) reconciling the World to Himself.

It is no wonder therefore that God led the prophet Isaiah to prophecy of the coming Messiah “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6

God would have a Son and give him these blessings! His determinate council and foreknowledge prophetically uttered these words knowing what manner of Son he would have! Imagine the pleasure God would have in having a Son who could manifest Him perfectly?

It brings to mind that beautiful verse in Hebrews 2L!3

And again, “I (God) will put my trust in him (Jesus).” And again, “Behold, I (Jesus) and the children (us) God has given me (Jesus).”

Boy Brakelite, if you can't piece that together you might never before he comes.

F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

No need for you to be sad, for me openly honestly speaking to her.

Get off your high horse.

I personally elect to have saints pray for me.. as scripture teaches, as well as prayers for those who persecute you….
I do not believe either applies to her.

And I don’t believe your a saint either..who cares what you think of me...certainly not me..i only care what God thinks..I was chosen by him,to be Born Of His seed.,,Praise God!...all because I don’t agree with you..grow up for heavens sake....you can see on this thread, how this member tried to force me to see what she sees...that’s not of God, thats of the flesh.

Whatever I am meant to see then God will open my eyes..you certainly won’t, not with your forceful attitude.

If I’m wrong about the trinity God will show me in his timing...not yours.

 

[face2face]

Why should we need to explain it? Who can explain the infinite? Even if God should explain it, what mashes you think you would underhand it?

If an error were introduced into the Divine record, do you believe it would still be intelligible? Would it fit perfectly together with the truth revealed? And if I were to present all the questions I have on this subject—questions that you cannot answer, but I can with the Bible in hand—how does that make your position sustainable? I don't say this to puff up, but to show you the answers are there if only you lay down T dogma. You must put it away completely else the answers to the questions you have given up on answering will never be known.

 

[Brakelite]

Correct - how was Sin represented in him then,,,think dear watson!

Look to the sanctuary. Sins were confessed over, and transferred to the sacrificial victim. The priest, after eating a part of the victim, those were then transferred to the priest, who through the blood, transferred those sins into the sanctuary through the sprinkling of the blood before the veil etc.
Christ the sacrifice... the priest.

...laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

 

[Taken]

The Apostles stated he did...even Christ from his own mouth!

...
and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man. John 2:25

Jesus appeared AS a man. Men called Him a man. He called Himself as He appeared… So?

Did He elaborate and CALL HIMSELF….
A terrestrial, earthy a human? No.
But terrestrial, earthly, human men DO. Why? When Jesus expressly said He came forth out from the Father.
Does that make the Father ALSO a HUMAN?

John 14:
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
[28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

 

[David in NJ]

A profoundly anti-trinitarian statement on multiple levels.

First, no mention of the Holy Spirit. Profound admission God is not a 3-person being.

Spelling out the logic, a 2-person being is not a 3-person being - IF this statement is to be taken literally as you allege, it disses the HS as being God. We all know T cares more about the man-is-god thesis and are OK with dispensing with the HS is God as long as it ‘supports’ the man-is-god thesis.

Problem is, you just blew up the claim the trinity is true.

Second, this is a figurative expression still in use today. It means being of the same mind, not that they comprise a 2 person Being.

When I said to my daughters, ‘Your mother and I are one on this,’ I was likewise, not claiming my wife and I are literally a 2-person Being.

A profoundly anti-trinitarian statement on multiple levels.
First, no mention of the Holy Spirit. Profound admission God is not a 3-person being.

You have PROFOUNDLY forgotten that the Holy Spirit is with/in/upon JESUS
Therefore, the FATHER and the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT are all together as ONE


Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

 

[face2face]

Look to the sanctuary. Sins were confessed over, and transferred to the sacrificial victim. The priest, after eating a part of the victim, those were then transferred to the priest, who through the blood, transferred those sins into the sanctuary through the sprinkling of the blood before the veil etc.
Christ the sacrifice... the priest.

...laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10

How did Jesus die to sin once?

Think Brakelite - forget about what you think you know - read the words and think about what God did in Christ!

How were your sins represented in his body on the tree!
How could God remove the law of Sin and Death in Christ's body?

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Complete and total death - cease to exist in everyway!

The most important fact proving Jesus is not God - he died!

Scripture does not say half of Christ died but his better half survived the crucifixion. Trinitarians just read that into text that says he died, meaning what you wrote above.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus appeared AS a man. Men called Him a man. He called Himself as He appeared… So?

Did He elaborate and CALL HIMSELF….
A terrestrial, earthy a human? No.
But terrestrial, earthly, human men DO. Why? When Jesus expressly said He came forth out from the Father.
Does that make the Father ALSO a HUMAN?

John 14:
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
[28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”

Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”


Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above.
You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

 

[face2face]

The most important fact proving Jesus is not God - he died!

Scripture does not say half of Christ died but his better half survived the crucifixion. Trinitarians just read that into text that says he died, meaning what you wrote above.

I'm trying to get Brakelite to see a plain truth which is staring him in the face but he will not bring himself to acknowledge it.

If the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and the death Christ died he died to sin once (Romans 6:10) - How can he be God is he died to sin once?

@Brakelite God cannot die to sin—please understand this crucial point! Your sins were represented in Christ’s body because He bore the consequences of sin in His death, even though He was sinless. The only way God could justly remove the law of sin and death from His people was by having a Son who would willingly obey from the heart and die the death of a sinner.

He was numbered with the transgressors and died a transgressors death even though he was sinless in character he still died to sin ONCE!

Do you understand?

I'm trying to explain this as simply for you as possible.

F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

The most important fact proving Jesus is not God - he died!

He did, but then he was resurrected wasn’t he?

 

[Wrangler]

Did He elaborate and CALL HIMSELF….
A terrestrial, earthy a human? No.

He didn’t rebuke being called a man.

 

[David in NJ]

God cannot die to sin—please understand this crucial point! Your sins were represented in Christ’s body because He bore the consequences of sin in His death, even though He was sinless. The only way God could justly remove the law of sin and death from His people was by having a Son who would willingly obey from the heart and die the death of a sinner.

He was numbered with the transgressors and died a transgressors death even though he was sinless in character he still died to sin ONCE!

Do you understand?

I'm trying to explain this as simply for you as possible.

EXCELLENT and TRUTH
Scripture is Self-Explanatory and is very SIMPLE = that's how God made it for us

Like this Scripture of TRUTH = Romans 8:9

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. = 3

 

[St. SteVen]

RedFan said:
Bottom line for me: IF Scripture is your only talisman for establishing the validity of the Trinity, I can't add much. But if anyone wants to discuss Trinitarianism as the outgrowth of the early Church’s effort to understand and explain its own experience of the risen Christ in philosophical terms, I am happy to engage with my fellow Early Church Fathers fans and explain why I think they actually got it right!

That sounds like it is worth exploring.

Perhaps it should be a separate topic. This one has become so contentious. New topic link below.

How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

Let's discuss "Trinitarianism as the outgrowth of the early Church’s effort to understand and explain its own experience of the risen Christ in philosophical terms." - @RedFan Open discussion on the development of the Trinitarian doctrine. [

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler @Brakelite

Why was it important Christ die to sin once?

So death could be righteously dealt with!

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! 1 Co 15:54–57.

The sting was removed in Christ
Death was removed in Christ
The Power (devil) of Sin was removed in Christ

All this literally happened in the Sacrifice of Christ on the tree!

NOT transference of sin! God literally removed the law of sin and death from the nature of His Son thereby removing it from all those whose faith is in this offering and covering for sin!

F2F

 

[Grailhunter]

Hello Grailhunter, Amen, Love, Walter And Debbie

Hey there!
Welcome to the thread.
Just got back from dinner.

 

[Wrangler]

He did, but then he was resurrected wasn’t he?

Of course he was resurrected - but in the context of first fruits, not as the god Phoenix.

Jesus was resurrected by God. Roman’s 10:9. He did not rise by his own power as the Greek Phoenix.

 

[Grailhunter]

The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.

 

[Taken]

Get off your high horse.

. I don’t believe your a saint either..who cares what you think of me...certainly not me..

only care what God thinks..I was chosen by him,to be Born Of His seed.,,Praise God!...all because I don’t agree with you..

grow up for heavens sake....

True…we do not agree…but hope you sounding off made you feel better.

BTW… While you reject Jesus is God…that SEED OF God, IS Christ!!

Oops…

 

[face2face]

EXCELLENT and TRUTH
Scripture is Self-Explanatory and is very SIMPLE = that's how God made it for us

Like this Scripture of TRUTH = Romans 8:9

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. = 3

Youre so far away from me!