The social gospel?

[Johann]

"Sanctification is glory begun. Glory is sanctification completed." ~ F. F. Bruce

Glad to be of service @Episkopos

 

[marks]

God’s holiness is unique and unmatched; no one else possesses the holiness that God embodies.
God alone is holy, as repeatedly stated in the scriptures, which serves as a foundation for worship and reverence.
God will not share His glory or holiness with anyone else, highlighting His supreme and exclusive nature.

--so I ask again, "Are we AS holy as God, Christ Jesus even when walking in the sphere of the Spirit?

In the very best of conditions, any holiness we walk in is given us by God. His holiness is intrinsic, ours is both imputed and imparted, but is not our own.

We rely on Him to make us holy, He relies on no one, because this is Who He is.

Is this more clear?

I think this is what is meant in the beauty of His holiness, because this is Who He is, true through and through, no hint or shadow of turning, the same yesterday, today, forever. Always and fully true to Himself and His ways. 1,000%

I believe that we will spend the rest of our lives continuing to learn His ways and walk in them. Though we may have a clear conscience, not committing sins that are on our radar. Not even Paul had attained, why should I think I will? My desire is to be pleasing to Him in what I am doing right now, and I'm content to let Him take care of the future.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Glad to be of service @Episkopos

A good saying.

 

[marks]

"but their holiness is never perfect or absolute in this life." I wonder, is it because FF Bruce is a moderate Calvinist or do you believe we CAN be as holy as GOD?

Simply that I don't believe in "putting God in a box", or limiting what I think He can do. I leave these things completely in His hands.

in this flesh of ours.

Yes, I think this is the key point. Once we are transformed and no longer have to deal with corrupt flesh at all, it will be very different for us, to say the least!

hope I did not cause offense as you DID write-

No, you have not offended.

May God grant you peaceful and refreshing rest!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

In the very best of conditions, any holiness we walk in is given us by God. His holiness is intrinsic, ours is both imputed and imparted, but is not our own.

We rely on Him to make us holy, He relies on no one, because this is Who He is.

Is this more clear?

I think this is what is meant in the beauty of His holiness, because this is Who He is, true through and through, no hint or shadow of turning, the same yesterday, today, forever. Always and fully true to Himself and His ways. 1,000%

I believe that we will spend the rest of our lives continuing to learn His ways and walk in them. Though we may have a clear conscience, not committing sins that are on our radar. Not even Paul had attained, why should I think I will? My desire is to be pleasing to Him in what I am doing right now, and I'm content to let Him take care of the future.

Much love!

Forgive me brother-most of the times I have my metaphors scrambled and yes, this is absolutely clear.
Miscommunication and probably poor reading comprehension on my part.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[marks]

Forgive me brother-most of the times I have my metaphors scrambled and yes, this is absolutely clear.
Miscommunication and probably poor reading comprehension on my part.
Shalom
Johann.

Well, I could see in my post my lack of clarity, so, you were right to ask for clarification.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

A good saying.

And yet you slighted Bruce when I quoted him?

 

[Wynona]

I would think that DOING what Jesus would do is better than claiming Him as an idol for an afterlife salvation.

I agree.

1 John 2:6

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We ought to love others not just in words but in practical help for our brothers and sisters in Christ as well as our neighbors. That's what it means to love the way Jesus taught.

 

[Johann]

I agree.

1 John 2:6

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We ought to love others not just in words but in practical help for our brothers and sisters in Christ as well as our neighbors. That's what it means to love the way Jesus taught.

This resonates with me-Matthew 25.

Context of 1 John 2:6
Immediate Context
1 John 2:3-6 (ESV):
3 "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says 'I know him' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

In these verses, the Apostle John emphasizes the importance of obedience to God's commandments as evidence of truly knowing God. The passage stresses the inseparable connection between knowledge of God and a lifestyle that reflects His commandments. This context sets the stage for verse 6, which calls believers to walk as Jesus walked.

Broader Context
Theme of Fellowship and Walking in the Light (1 John 1:5-2:11):

1 John 1:5-7 (ESV): "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
These verses introduce the metaphor of walking in the light, which represents living in a manner consistent with God's character and commands. Walking in the light is contrasted with walking in darkness, symbolizing sin and disobedience.
Obedience and Love (1 John 2:3-11):

1 John 2:9-10 (ESV): "Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling."
John continues to link obedience to God's commands with love for others. Abiding in the light involves loving one's brother, further highlighting the practical outworking of faith in ethical behavior.
Interpretation of 1 John 2:6
"He who says he abides in him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

Abiding in Christ:

To "abide" in Christ means to remain in close fellowship with Him. It involves a continual, personal relationship characterized by faith, obedience, and reliance on Christ.
Walking as Jesus Walked:

Walking as Jesus walked means living a life that imitates His actions, attitudes, and teachings. Jesus' life was marked by obedience to the Father, love for others, humility, and righteousness.
Philippians 2:5-8 (ESV): "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Practical Application:

This verse calls believers to examine their lives and ensure that their actions align with the teachings and example of Jesus. It emphasizes the importance of not only professing faith in Christ but also demonstrating that faith through a Christ-like lifestyle.
James 2:17 (ESV): "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."
Summary
1 John 2:6 serves as a clear and powerful call for believers to live lives that reflect their professed relationship with Christ. It underscores the expectation that those who claim to abide in Jesus must live in a manner consistent with His life and teachings, embodying His love, obedience, and righteousness. This call to "walk as He walked" ties into the broader themes of obedience, love, and walking in the light, which are central to the message of 1 John.

 

[Wynona]

In my experience with a lot of churches and Christian culture, we think Jesus did so well on earth that it's arrogant to think we can behave like Him or even follow His commands.

But the Lord said we would do greater things.

John 14:12

King James Version

​

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

[quietthinker]

In my experience with a lot of churches and Christian culture, we think Jesus did so well on earth that it's arrogant to think we can behave like Him or even follow His commands.

But the Lord said we would do greater things.

John 14:12​

​

King James Version​

​

​

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

what might those 'greater' things/ works be?

 

[Wynona]

what might those 'greater' things/ works be?

Jesus' ministry on the earth lasted three years if I'm not mistaken. He did quite a lot But He left us the Holy Spirit so we can be His hands and feet and reach people throughout the whole world. And I still believe signs, miracles, and wonders can be done in faith today.

We can do the great commission. When the gospel is preached throughout then the end will come.

 

[Johann]

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

What greater works @Wynona?

 

[Wynona]

If Im being honest, the Christian circles Im used to are so into "faith alone" and "its not about your performance" and avoiding "works based salvation" that I make sure to avoid saying anything of practical good I plan to do just to avoid a lecture.

They will lecture me about the above and wet blanket any zeal I have for obeying Jesus tangibly.

 

[Wynona]

What greater works @Wynona?

The great commission as well as further signs, miracles, and wonders. (I believe they still happen today)

 

[Lizbeth]

Any bible expositor will say that the word aphesis is sometimes used to mean "forgiveness" because the translators twisted the meaning into popularity so long ago that it is now a part of the religious sub-culture. But learn what the words really mean.


It's the same thing for the modern word "bad". When something is "bad" it means it is not good. But today "bad" can also mean "awesome", "cool" and "great" . That's the lack of depth of your understanding showing here. The same thing applies for bad translations that have become institutional. Like the word " impute". Again...this means to attribute (something real). But the dictionaries say that from a religious perspective it means that something is not real.

The word for impute in modern Hebrew is now used for "accountant". In your view that would be a criminal accountant. But God is not a criminal. He judges in righteousness. So that means if God imputes something to someone, it is real not imagined.

And the list continues in both HUGE errors and also lesser ones.

Otherwise, I like the KJV. :)

Sure you're not overthinking it? Jesus healed the paralytic...to show that He had power on earth to forgive sins. Under the Law curses of sickness and demonic oppression and barrenness etc were penalties for disobeying the Law........Jesus went around healing the sick and casting out demons and delivering from bondage to demonstrate forgiveness of sins...."loosing" and delivering them from their sins and the consequences of them (loosing = forgiving) "If I by the finger of God cast out demons and heal the sick, then the kingdom has come to you." He was demonstrating the grace of the new covenant...gospel of the kingdom.

 

[Johann]

Jesus' ministry on the earth lasted three years if I'm not mistaken. He did quite a lot But He left us the Holy Spirit so we can be His hands and feet and reach people throughout the whole world. And I still believe signs, miracles, and wonders can be done in faith today.

We can do the great commission. When the gospel is preached throughout then the end will come.

Justin Johnson
It was common in Jesus’ ministry to heal all whom he touched.

Then a woman reached out and touched the hem of his garment and was healed (Matt 9:20). This was something greater!

After that everyone tried to touch his garment (Matt 14:36), even those that did not believe divided his garments even as they crucified him (Matt 27:35). Everyone wanted a piece of what healed.

At the end of his earthly ministry Jesus said that greater works than that would be done (John 14:12).

The twelve apostles were given power to do greater works insomuch that the sick sought to be healed by Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15)! These were clearly greater works.

This did not prevent them from putting Peter in jail, not because of his greater works, but because he preached Jesus as the Christ.

Greater works than Peter were done during Paul’s ministry when the sick were healed by his handkerchiefs delivered to them (Acts 19:11-12).

Paul’s special miracles did not save him from persecution and oft tribulations for his message.

No one was ever rejected for healing power; everyone wants to be healed. They were rejected and killed for their doctrinal message.

Greater works were signs pointing to a more excellent ministry. The message was always greater than the miracles.

Yes, Paul performed miracles, tongue talking, and healings, but Paul’s message was more excellent than any of those great works (Phil 1:10; 1 Cor 13:13; Eph 2:4-7).

When Christians think that special miracles, healing, and powers are greater than understanding doctrine, they are making the same mistake as those who crucified Jesus, jailed Peter, and persecuted Paul.

Today, there is no greater message than what the Lord revealed to the apostle Paul last of all. What was Paul’s message?

The gospel of the grace of God testifies to Christ having done everything necessary for you already including blessing you with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.

We walk by faith (message) not by sight (miracles)-(2 Cor 5:7).

There is a greater hope than healing. It is found in what Christ has already done for you.

Trusting the greater message of grace will relieve you from the disappointment of not receiving lesser miracles.

Preach this message and you will face resistance by those who think God’s greatest work was to heal. Heal everyone in town and you will receive big crowds that might crucify you if you talk too much about sound doctrine.
Justin Johnson
It used to be good advice to say, “Don’t believe everything you hear.” It is harder to find good advice these days.

It is far easier to persuade someone to believe an outrageous story than persuade them to believe the Bible rightly divided. People are gullible.

Don’t believe me?

Have you heard of the four foot man eating chicken? No? There is is a video. Prepare to be disappointed. What a circus!

What about the story of the boy who came back from heaven? There is a best selling book. It is full of malarkey.

Certainly, you have heard stories of miraculous healing. Gullible Christians believe them all. They believe everything they hear.

A Healing Story

One popular practitioner of healing claims to have healed hundreds of thousands, and that all that came to his house were healed. The dead were raised, the blind see, the lame walk, the infirmed were healed!

Then you learn that his method of healing is the popular “name it and claim it” method. This method teaches claiming a healing before it actually happens.

This is purportedly the approach used by Jesus and Peter and the apostles. “Rise up and walk!” (Acts 3:6)

The practitioners of name-it-and-claim-it healing will claim a healing even if it has not yet happened. This will tend to inflate the healing claims if we can count unhealed people because they are claiming their healing by faith.

Then you learn that the person being healed is taught that an expression of doubt about being healed is a lack of faith in God. They are told they must claim the healing now whether they see it or not, and let all doubt to the contrary be erased from their mind. They are taught to do more than plead for healing, they must claim the healing!

Many people are “healed” this way. All it takes is for people to believe what they hear, and put their faith in being healed now. To guard against this sort of gullibility believe the Bible rightly divided.

What the Bible Rightly Divided Says

Our faith is not in a healing, but in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation (Rom 1:16; Rom 4:25; 1 Cor 15:1-4). Walking by faith does not describe a healing (2 Cor 5:7).

God did everything necessary to save your soul by the cross of Christ. If there is something left for God to do for you, then he has not done it all, and you are not complete in Him. Without the truth, people believe lies, they become gullible.

If you believe the grace of God is sufficient, then the Bible says you are complete in Christ, even if you are physically infirmed (Col 2:10; 2 Cor 12:9). Put your hope in the Lord, not in a healing.

When you hear something that is too good to be true, ask yourself: is this what the Bible says when rightly divided, or is this a story being told to misplace my hope in the Lord. If its not the Bible rightly divided, then it is highly suspect if not a lie (Rom 3:4; 2 Tim 2:15-16).

Don’t believe everything you hear. Compare what you hear to the Bible rightly divided. Then choose to believe your Bible.

Don’t Believe Everything You Hear… About Healing

graceambassadors.com

 

[quietthinker]

If Im being honest, the Christian circles Im used to are so into "faith alone" and "its not about your performance" and avoiding "works based salvation" that I make sure to avoid saying anything of practical good I plan to do just to avoid a lecture.

They will lecture me about the above and wet blanket any zeal I have for obeying Jesus tangibly.

:)

 

[Johann]

The great commission as well as further signs, miracles, and wonders. (I believe they still happen today)

I don't-what now?

 

[Wynona]

Justin Johnson
It was common in Jesus’ ministry to heal all whom he touched.

Then a woman reached out and touched the hem of his garment and was healed (Matt 9:20). This was something greater!

After that everyone tried to touch his garment (Matt 14:36), even those that did not believe divided his garments even as they crucified him (Matt 27:35). Everyone wanted a piece of what healed.

At the end of his earthly ministry Jesus said that greater works than that would be done (John 14:12).

The twelve apostles were given power to do greater works insomuch that the sick sought to be healed by Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15)! These were clearly greater works.

This did not prevent them from putting Peter in jail, not because of his greater works, but because he preached Jesus as the Christ.

Greater works than Peter were done during Paul’s ministry when the sick were healed by his handkerchiefs delivered to them (Acts 19:11-12).

Paul’s special miracles did not save him from persecution and oft tribulations for his message.

No one was ever rejected for healing power; everyone wants to be healed. They were rejected and killed for their doctrinal message.

Greater works were signs pointing to a more excellent ministry. The message was always greater than the miracles.

Yes, Paul performed miracles, tongue talking, and healings, but Paul’s message was more excellent than any of those great works (Phil 1:10; 1 Cor 13:13; Eph 2:4-7).

When Christians think that special miracles, healing, and powers are greater than understanding doctrine, they are making the same mistake as those who crucified Jesus, jailed Peter, and persecuted Paul.

Today, there is no greater message than what the Lord revealed to the apostle Paul last of all. What was Paul’s message?

The gospel of the grace of God testifies to Christ having done everything necessary for you already including blessing you with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.

We walk by faith (message) not by sight (miracles)-(2 Cor 5:7).

There is a greater hope than healing. It is found in what Christ has already done for you.

Trusting the greater message of grace will relieve you from the disappointment of not receiving lesser miracles.

Preach this message and you will face resistance by those who think God’s greatest work was to heal. Heal everyone in town and you will receive big crowds that might crucify you if you talk too much about sound doctrine.
Justin Johnson
It used to be good advice to say, “Don’t believe everything you hear.” It is harder to find good advice these days.

It is far easier to persuade someone to believe an outrageous story than persuade them to believe the Bible rightly divided. People are gullible.

Don’t believe me?

Have you heard of the four foot man eating chicken? No? There is is a video. Prepare to be disappointed. What a circus!

What about the story of the boy who came back from heaven? There is a best selling book. It is full of malarkey.

Certainly, you have heard stories of miraculous healing. Gullible Christians believe them all. They believe everything they hear.

A Healing Story

One popular practitioner of healing claims to have healed hundreds of thousands, and that all that came to his house were healed. The dead were raised, the blind see, the lame walk, the infirmed were healed!

Then you learn that his method of healing is the popular “name it and claim it” method. This method teaches claiming a healing before it actually happens.

This is purportedly the approach used by Jesus and Peter and the apostles. “Rise up and walk!” (Acts 3:6)

The practitioners of name-it-and-claim-it healing will claim a healing even if it has not yet happened. This will tend to inflate the healing claims if we can count unhealed people because they are claiming their healing by faith.

Then you learn that the person being healed is taught that an expression of doubt about being healed is a lack of faith in God. They are told they must claim the healing now whether they see it or not, and let all doubt to the contrary be erased from their mind. They are taught to do more than plead for healing, they must claim the healing!

Many people are “healed” this way. All it takes is for people to believe what they hear, and put their faith in being healed now. To guard against this sort of gullibility believe the Bible rightly divided.

What the Bible Rightly Divided Says

Our faith is not in a healing, but in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation (Rom 1:16; Rom 4:25; 1 Cor 15:1-4). Walking by faith does not describe a healing (2 Cor 5:7).

God did everything necessary to save your soul by the cross of Christ. If there is something left for God to do for you, then he has not done it all, and you are not complete in Him. Without the truth, people believe lies, they become gullible.

If you believe the grace of God is sufficient, then the Bible says you are complete in Christ, even if you are physically infirmed (Col 2:10; 2 Cor 12:9). Put your hope in the Lord, not in a healing.

When you hear something that is too good to be true, ask yourself: is this what the Bible says when rightly divided, or is this a story being told to misplace my hope in the Lord. If its not the Bible rightly divided, then it is highly suspect if not a lie (Rom 3:4; 2 Tim 2:15-16).

Don’t believe everything you hear. Compare what you hear to the Bible rightly divided. Then choose to believe your Bible.

Don’t Believe Everything You Hear… About Healing

graceambassadors.com

I Appreciate the warning but I don't believe all modern healing is false and I don't believe those who believe in healing are not having enough faith that the cross is sufficient.

This topic is one of the ones Im least likely to be moved on. Fair warning. I hope we can stay on topic