The social gospel?

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Johann

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If Im being honest, the Christian circles Im used to are so into "faith alone" and "its not about your performance" and avoiding "works based salvation" that I make sure to avoid saying anything of practical good I plan to do just to avoid a lecture.

They will lecture me about the above and wet blanket any zeal I have for obeying Jesus tangibly.
Great!

The Final Judgment
Mat 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. [Rev_20:4-6]
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; [Eze_34:17]
Mat 25:33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].
Mat 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
Mat 25:36 I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me [with help and ministering care]; I was in prison, and you came to Me [ignoring personal danger].' [Isa_58:7]
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Mat 25:40 The King will answer and say to them, 'I assure you and most solemnly say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it for Me.' [Pro_19:17]
Mat 25:41 "Then He will say to those on His left, 'Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me [with help and ministering care].'
Mat 25:44 Then they also [in their turn] will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
Mat 25:45 Then He will reply to them, 'I assure you and most solemnly say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these [my followers], you did not do it for Me.' [Pro_14:31; Pro_17:5]
Mat 25:46 Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life." [Dan_12:2]
AMP.
 
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Johann

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I Appreciate the warning but I don't believe all modern healing is false and I don't believe those who believe in healing are not having enough faith that the cross is efficient.

This topic is one of the ones Im least likely to be moved on. Fair warning. I hope we can stay on topic
I'm on topic and what fair warning is this? Because you are a Staff member?

If you are here to talk about signs and miracles when the just shall live by faith I'm out of here-and you will not move me on what I believe is biblical.
 

Wynona

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I'm on topic and what fair warning is this? Because you are a Staff member?

If you are here to talk about signs and miracles when the just shall live by faith I'm out of here-and you will not move me on what I believe is biblical.
Just saying Im not easily convinced and would rather talk about social gospel op things than cessationism. The amount of effort to convince me is not worth it.

Not trying to move you either. Believe what you will. But I'm not moving myself.
 
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Johann

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Just saying Im not easily convinced and would rather talk about social gospel op things than cessationism. The amount of effort to convince me is not worth it.

Not trying to move you either. Believe what you will. But I'm not moving myself.
Healing was a miraculous sign gift to be used for special purposes. It was not intended as a permanent way to keep the Christian community in perfect health. Yet today most charismatics teach that God wants every Christian well. If that is true, why does God allow Christians to get sick in the first place?
Author: John MacArthur

Good night.
 

Wynona

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Healing was a miraculous sign gift to be used for special purposes. It was not intended as a permanent way to keep the Christian community in perfect health. Yet today most charismatics teach that God wants every Christian well. If that is true, why does God allow Christians to get sick in the first place?
Author: John MacArthur

Good night.
God bless you and have a good night
 

Wynona

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I'm on topic and what fair warning is this? Because you are a Staff member?
Have never used being a staff member to do anything around here.

I speak the way I want and just happened to get a badge.

I still plan on speaking as I wish, conscience allowing. I appreciate the honor but I'm not so in love with the badge that I'd avoid saying something I think is important.
 
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Wynona

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So which extreme is better? I say, extreme because neither is the truth. Neither is balanced and represents the real Jesus.
I like this. I feel like balance is missing too. We need faith and works, not just faith alone.

I don't agree with Catholic doctrine, but they do a lot of good for their communities. They pay people's light bills. I'd keep their sense of charity but take a different approach to how church is done.
 

faithfulness

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A twisting of bible verses really. I sympathize somewhat with English only speakers since these are so unused to looking at the meaning of words in other languages. And to add to that English speakers rely on bad translations cooked up by a system that wants more people....like a state religion (Anglicanism) in the case of the KJV (Not to be confused with the KGB). For the most part the translation (targum) is good...until it gets to the crucial bits...then it goes with the flow of carnal elevation. But who knows how to read a Concordance anymore?
Otherwise, I like the KJV. :)
Not to be confused with the KJB :cool:
Just for clarity...thought you were talking about the KJV vs KGB...understand now 'state religion' [Anglicanism] vs 'state security' KGB.
 
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Ritajanice

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I like this. I feel like balance is missing too. We need faith and works, not just faith alone.
Amen Sis.....Faith without works is dead.

Faith has to be exercised, I mean God gifted me a measure of faith when I became Born Again , Living spirit birth, of course I had to know that God exists before my faith can grow.

I had such a huge measure of faith gifted me by God....I could NEVER doubt he exists....yet being honest I have doubted what he spoke to my heart 33 yrs ago, plus I have doubted him getting me through certain situations I have been faced with.....

I have been shown by the Spirit that faith grows ....and it does, ..He will get me through every area of my life...he also showed me , don’t expect a quick fix either.......we walk in faith, we don’t walk by sight.

So I walk in faith because I believe I fully understand what it means now to actually walk in faith.....I’ve had so many let downs in life and was brought up being made to feel inferior to men......I’ve been brought to not only realise in my head and especially in my spirit, that God will never let me down...he’s not like earthly men.....he is Spirit and almighty God....I am / we are his spirit children who wants the best for his children.

He’s an AMAZING God.....and his purpose and plan is perfection in itself....mind Blowing....just my thoughts Sis.....

He’s got my back and I now know this in my heart/ spirit....taken 33 yrs to know and understand this....all brought to my understanding by Gods Witness in my heart/ spirit...

I also have the faith to know that God can do anything....he can heal my AF fully if it’s his will....he can perform miracles, he can heal cancer, there is NOTHING God can’t do....but, if he hadn’t given me that divine visitation/ revelation, when he made my spirit Born Again......gifted me that faith......there would be no way to have faith in him, as I’d still be dead and in sin....my spirit needed to be brought Alive by God and it was....I was Born Of The Spirit just as His word says to see the Kingdom Of God....
Praise the Lord!!!!
 
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quietthinker

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I like this. I feel like balance is missing too. We need faith and works, not just faith alone.

I don't agree with Catholic doctrine, but they do a lot of good for their communities. They pay people's light bills. I'd keep their sense of charity but take a different approach to how church is done.
Dear Winnie,
I have been watching and listening to your posts. I feel impressed to send this pdf to you for your perusal.
I have tried to send it through private message but it wouldn't do it, so here you have it in the public domain. I hope it is helpful.
 

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Hepzibah

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Epi goes on experiences and divine visitations-talking his walk so I don't take him seriously-you brother @marks seem a bit "evasive" on my direct question-no offense.

Maybe this will help.

Scripture Indicating God's Unique Holiness
Isaiah 6:3 (ESV):

"And one called to another and said: 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!'"
This passage emphasizes the thrice-repeated "holy" which underscores the absolute and unique holiness of God.
1 Samuel 2:2 (ESV):

"There is none holy like the Lord: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God."
This verse explicitly states that there is no one holy like the Lord, highlighting His unique and unmatched holiness.

Revelation 15:4 (ESV):

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
This passage affirms that God alone is holy and worthy of worship, emphasizing His exclusive holiness.
Scripture Indicating God Will Not Share His Glory
Isaiah 42:8 (ESV):

"I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols."
This verse states that God does not share His glory with anyone else, reinforcing the idea that His holiness and glory are uniquely His.
Isaiah 48:11 (ESV):

"For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."
Here, God declares that He will not give His glory to another, underlining the exclusivity of His divine holiness and glory.
Summary
These scriptures collectively affirm that:

God’s holiness is unique and unmatched; no one else possesses the holiness that God embodies.
God alone is holy, as repeatedly stated in the scriptures, which serves as a foundation for worship and reverence.
God will not share His glory or holiness with anyone else, highlighting His supreme and exclusive nature.

--so I ask again, "Are we AS holy as God, Christ Jesus even when walking in the sphere of the Spirit?
The early church answered this in saying, we may share in God's energies but not His essence. Sharing in His energies, they called Theosis or union with Christ. They were clear that although many will say that we cannot do this till after this life, there are thousands of testimonies and texts that say the opposite, including references in the OT of men who had entered into His rest like Job of whom God Himself, called him holy.

For clarity I will call it 'enter His rest' for now. You are either in His rest or not in His rest.

The problem appears when we misinterpret the word holy, to mean working towards it, after being set apart. As we see clearly in the OT, it means set apart but also being made holy, with the explanation of the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit in baptism in the NT. There is indeed a process before it, of longing for it, that is if we have not seared our conscious.

The two positions are shown right at the very beginning in Eden in the two trees, one of life and one of death, spiritual death that is. Man was created and lived as a sinless being at the beginning. Why can God not return him to that position in this life when it is by His power alone? Gradual sanctification, of which proponents say cannot be achieved till after death, is the biggest fallacy of the enemy. It is enter His rest or stay outside of it and be deceived.
 
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Hepzibah

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So you read the Early Church Fathers but reject the Puritans and Reformers-where is the "Eat the chicken, spit out the bones?"
The early church taught free will. From Augustine onwards we find deterministic theology had invaded the church, which the early ones had fought so much against in paganism and Greek philosophy. It was thereafter mixed in with Christianity. This the root of the rot.

We must worship God as He has revealed Himself, as the faith handed down once and for all to the saints - apostles and their disciples. Saying that God wills for most of mankind to never be given a chance regarding being assigned to hell, is not the truth. This rot got in very early and flowered at the Reformation.
 

Hepzibah

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A Study of Holiness from the Early Church Fathers
By J. B. Galloway

Chapter 14
HOLINESS THROUGH ALL AGES OF THE CHURCH
Holiness is one of the highest attributes of God. Man was created in His image, not the physical image, but in His moral likeness. "Which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24). Man lost his blessed holy estate by the fall, but the new man may be restored again to holiness through the merits of our Saviour. The first thing that God did to set man an example was to rest upon the Sabbath day; He sanctified it and made it holy. God not only created man in His image of holiness, but He wishes man to be like Him through all the ages. "Be ye holy; for I am holy" (I Peter 1:16).

God would not permit Moses to approach Him without first recognizing His holiness. The Holy Spirit anointed the judges and kings of Israel. Samuel anointed David with oil, and the Spirit of the Lord came upon him from that day forward (I Samuel 16:13). The prophets were moved and spake by the Spirit. Isaiah was only a man of unclean lips until God touched him with the fire and Holy Spirit. John the Baptist had a special anointing of the Holy Ghost, and so did Jesus. The apostles received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost; and time and time again the Holy Spirit came upon them with fresh power in times of need.

The birthday of the Church was a baptism of the Holy Ghost, and this same power has been found in the Church ever since. Sometimes only a few have professed it, but God never has been without a witness of holiness in the earth. Paul was constantly talking about it. When the Church needed to select officers, the qualification for deacons was "men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom." When new converts believed, as at Ephesus, the Church sent down certain disciples, who inquired, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" And when they heard that they had not, they laid their hands on them, and "they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Great Bible scholars and church historians recognize the fact that it was the custom of the Early Church to pray for all believers to be filled with the Spirit. The usual custom was to baptize the converts, and then the elders would lay their hands upon them and pray that they might receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Early Church believed in and prayed for the filling of the Holy Spirit, and this was the secret of their great power. They lived in the Spirit, walked in the Spirit, prayed in the Spirit, and testified in the Spirit. They were undaunted in persecution because they were helped by the Holy Spirit within them.

Many writers before the days of Constantine have left their testimony that they believed in and lived a life of holiness; from some of these we have quoted. The same thing is seen in the literature coming from Ambrose, Chrysostom, Jerome, and Augustine. When the Church became ritualistic and formal, the Latins demanded fourscore pounds of gold for the anointing oil, and there was a quarrel between the Roman and the Greek Catholic churches. The Greeks rejected the authority of the Roman bishop, and began to consecrate their own anointing oil; and since that time they have been separate churches.

From time to time through the Dark Ages witnesses to the truth of holiness appeared, and with the dawn of the Reformation the light begins to shine again. The Quietist movement among the Roman Catholics, which centered around Fenelon and Madame Guyon, and the Quakers among the Protestants, were two great movements to make the whole Church feel the need of being filled with and led by the Holy Spirit.

John Calvin acknowledged that the custom of praying for the new converts to be filled with the Holy Ghost was derived from the apostles, and admitted that the Protestants should have something in the place of it, yet did not emphasize this in his teachings. We read this from his "Commentaries" when commenting on Hebrews 6:2, which speaks of laying on of hands:

This one passage abundantly testifies that this rite had its beginning from the Apostles, which afterwards, however, was turned into superstition, as the world almost always degenerates into corruption ..... Wherefore the pure institution at this day ought to be retained, but the superstition ought to be removed.

In Oxford University there was a group of students who were seeking after holiness; they were ridiculed and called the "Holy Club." Soon we hear of the great Wesley revival which was conducted by some of the former members of this club. They placed great emphasis upon the Holy Spirit and the doctrine of sanctification. Wesley said that the purpose of the Methodist church was to spread scriptural holiness over the lands. He says in his Journal that at one time there were almost as many people seeking and claiming entire sanctification as claimed salvation in his meetings. When the movement spread to America, hundreds and thousands were reached. Many were professing the blessing of holiness for many years in the Methodist meetings, especially in the revival and camp meetings. Then the modern holiness movement began to be heard of; at first it was interdenominational. Those who believed in and professed the experience of holiness, from all churches, began to get together in associations and hold revivals and camp meetings all over America, and also in other countries.

As opposition became more and more marked, it soon became evident that, if the cause of holiness was to be conserved, it would be necessary to organize the work. Then little holiness churches began to appear in the eastern part of our country, and almost simultaneously they appeared on the western coast, and in the South. Several of these churches united under the leadership of Dr. P. F. Bresee and Dr. H. F. Reynolds, and the Church of the Nazarene came into existence in 1908. Other holiness churches appeared, and thousands now belong to the holiness churches. Hundreds of young people are in the holiness colleges, and other holiness institutions are aiding in various capacities to carry on the work. Thousands of pages of holiness literature are coming from the presses of the publishing houses of those who believe in holiness. Holiness churches and revival meetings dot the land from coast to coast where the holy fire burns upon the altar; and sacrificing missionaries are carrying the message of full salvation to the ends of the earth.

The long list of the holy saints of God who have lived and preached holiness is too numerous to mention, but God has them all recorded in the Book of Life. The apostles carried the message of holiness from the Upper Room on the Day of Pentecost to the Jews, and Paul was not satisfied until he had carried the same truth to almost all the great Gentile cities. John laid down the work at Ephesus at the close of the first Christian century; then the long stream of heroes carried the same truth to the multitudes from that day to this.

There are Polycarp, Clement, Barnabas, and Hermas of the early days of the Church, preaching the truth. Ambrose, Athanasius, and Chrysostom followed the days of Constantine with the blessed, holy gospel; and a few lights here and there shined out from the Dark Ages with the message of holiness. Savonarola thundered against sin and worldliness in the streets of cultured Florence until the people knew that they must live holy lives. One of the vilest popes had him burned on the public square of the city he had done so much for and loved so dearly. Fenelon and Madame Guyon were bright lights for holiness among the Catholics.

Then there are George Fox, John and Charles Wesley, George Whitefield, and John Fletcher in England. There are Jonathan and Mrs. Edwards, David Brainerd, and Asbury, who enjoyed the blessing of holiness in the early history of America; they are followed by Upham, Mahan, Charles Finney, the great revivalist who preached holiness. And we may mention Harriet Beecher Stowe, Mrs. Phoebe Palmer, Frances Ridley Havergal, Frances Willard, and Hannah Whitall Smith, who wrote The Christian's Secret of a Happy Life, and a host of others from among the noble women who enjoyed the blessing of holiness. Then there are A. B. Simpson, David Updegraff, Daniel Steele of Boston University, J. A. Wood, Inskip, and McDonald, all great holiness preachers; and on down to our sainted Dr. P. F. Bresee-these all died in the faith.

Today, hundreds are preaching the same message of holiness to the masses; almost everywhere you go there is an advocate of holiness. Who has not heard of the late Bud Robinson, who for so many years preached holiness every time he spoke?

The Church Of The Nazarene And Holiness














Like this?

"John Calvin acknowledged that the custom of praying for the new converts to be filled with the Holy Ghost was derived from the apostles, and admitted that the Protestants should have something in the place of it, yet did not emphasize this in his teachings. We read this from his "Commentaries" when commenting on Hebrews 6:2, which speaks of laying on of hands:

This one passage abundantly testifies that this rite had its beginning from the Apostles, which afterwards, however, was turned into superstition, as the world almost always degenerates into corruption ..... Wherefore the pure institution at this day ought to be retained, but the superstition ought to be removed."

Yes I am aware that some of the things that Calvin wrote are not followed by todays Reformed, but this bit is not very clear. I will have to read this section to comment.
 
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Ritajanice

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There is no freewill once a spirit child of God....he has us lock stock and barrel..in our spirit.......very hard to explain to someone who doesn’t understand “ spirit child” in their heart/ spirit...

The Living spirit can only occur by Gods will ,which is by divine visitation/ revelation....mind Blowing, you can’t search for God in your intellect......it’s the heart / spirit that needs to know God....Praise God for showing us his Mercy and Grace....all to Glorify His Name And Living Spirit Power that is everywhere and in the world today....making our spirit Born Of The Spirit.
 

Hepzibah

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Galloway - A Study of Holiness from the Early Church Fathers - Chapter 14

Thank you for this quote Johann. The spirituality of the early church, has also been found in the RCC, from the likes of St John of the Cross, apart from one point, from most of these teachings in the west.

St John of the Cross, who was persecuted by the RCC, wrote about 'The dark night of the soul' but also 'The dark night of the spirit', two events that should proceed from initial conversion which was much more in line with the early church than the one event of most of the rest.

As would be expected, there has been a huge amount of confusion over this issue right from the start due to Paul's enemies of the true gospel.

This is mainly caused by the fact that spiritual matters cannot easily be put into words.
 

Hepzibah

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@Ritajanice if you are content to carry on with doctrines that were not found in the disciples of the Apostles, then please go ahead. I understand exactly where you are coming from as once I was also a Calvinist. You cannot convince me to return to my days of ignorance. I have not fallen from the faith but live a much more committed spiritual life now in the Light.
 

Ritajanice

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@Ritajanice if you are content to carry on with doctrines that were not found in the disciples of the Apostles, then please go ahead. I understand exactly where you are coming from as once I was also a Calvinist. You cannot convince me to return to my days of ignorance.
You still sound like you are still in ignorance..I’m not a Calvinist @Hepzibah ...I go by Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit.....who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...do you understand what that means?

You think I’m a Calvinist because I don’t think you actually understand the Living spirit birth...according to your posts anyway.
I have not fallen from the faith but live a much more committed spiritual life now in the Light.
Sorry, I go by the word of God.

Please prove my doctrine wrong...before you make assumptions.

We are Born Of The Spirit...do you actually know what that means in your heart/spirit?

From what I base your belief on from reading your posts, “ intellectual knowledge “ do you understand divine visitation?..heart revelation? who brought your spirit Alive in Christ?

Our spirit is Born Again, do you understand that is a Living spirit birth by Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit?

Are you a spirit child?

Or do you only understand the Bible in your own intellect?
 
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Wynona

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Dear Winnie,
I have been watching and listening to your posts. I feel impressed to send this pdf to you for your perusal.
I have tried to send it through private message but it wouldn't do it, so here you have it in the public domain. I hope it is helpful.
What made you send this?

I looked at it. I'm only guessing but you seem concerned that my beliefs are legalistic. This commentary is emphasizing that salvation is a free gift. I believe that. I don't believe we had to do anything but believe to recieve salvation. And I believe we are seated in heavenly places the moment we believe.
 
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Hepzibah

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You still sound like you are still in ignorance..

Sorry, I go by the word of God.

Please prove my doctrine wrong...before you make assumptions.

We are Born Of The Spirit...do you actually know what that means in your heart/spirit?

From what I base your belief on from reading your posts, “ intellectual knowledge “ do you understand divine visitation?..heart revelation? who brought your spirit Alive in Christ?

Our spirit is Born Again, do you understand that is a Living spirit birth by Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit?

Are you a spirit child?

Or do you only understand the Bible in your own intellect?
I am afraid that I will not comply with your request at the moment Ritajanice and be grilled as you have done to others here. I even gave you my testimony a while ago which was pretty dramatic, even so that I even remember the time of the day not just the date and year.
 

Ritajanice

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I am afraid that I will not comply with your request at the moment Ritajanice and be grilled as you have done to others here. I even gave you my testimony a while ago which was pretty dramatic, even so that I even remember the time of the day not just the date and year.
I’m not grilling anyone...if you make accusations of another member, then be sure to know what you are talking about...back up my false teachings using scripture.

Instead of deflecting...by using the grilling card..

Testimonials must also be backed up using scripture....as I’ve posted mine countless times, backed up by the written word...otherwise they are meaningless.