The social gospel?

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Johann

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We walk in the Spirit by faith, not just waiting for something to happen to us. We choose to believe, and we choose to obey. If we do, that is. If we will believe, and if we will obey, God's power will cause His Word to be fulfilled in us.
Amen

Galatians 5:16 (ESV)

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."
Galatians 5:25 (ESV)

"If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit."
Choosing to Believe and Obey
Hebrews 11:6 (ESV)

"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."
James 1:22 (ESV)

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."
John 14:23 (ESV)

"Jesus answered him, 'If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.'"
Experiencing God's Power and Fulfillment of His Word
Philippians 2:13 (ESV)

"For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
Ephesians 3:20 (ESV)

"Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us."
Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)

"So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
2 Peter 1:3-4 (ESV)

"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire."
 
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marks

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Amen

Galatians 5:16 (ESV)

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."
Galatians 5:25 (ESV)

"If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit."
Choosing to Believe and Obey
Hebrews 11:6 (ESV)

"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."
James 1:22 (ESV)

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."
John 14:23 (ESV)

"Jesus answered him, 'If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.'"
Experiencing God's Power and Fulfillment of His Word
Philippians 2:13 (ESV)

"For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
Ephesians 3:20 (ESV)

"Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us."
Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)

"So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
2 Peter 1:3-4 (ESV)

"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire."
Absolutely! He has promised! What is left for us but to believe, and believing, so walk.

Much love!
 
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quietthinker

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When I think of what could be termed as being a social gospel, I think of people like Gandhi, Oprah, or MLK (Martin Luther King)

Of the 3 only the latter could be termed as preaching a social gospel, as he was a minister of religion....aka a pastor.

Mlk used the life of Jesus as something to emulate in His humanity...not concerned for the more spiritual aspects....like whether Jesus was divine or not. To him, that was beside the point. Anything spiritual, to him, was to be taken as a metaphor...a philosophy meant to inspire a human activism in conformity with the message of Jesus in His humanity. Social justice, human rights,...love of one's fellow man.

Gandhi said...I love your Christ, not your Christians. Gandhi was exposed to the charlatan aspect of Christianity that did NOTHING to follow Christ but rather used Him as an idol to worship and a religious ideological claim to be "going to heaven" in an afterlife by simply "accepting" Him. Gandhi found that to be "anti-Christian". Why do we not obey the One we call Lord??

We can compare that social stance to the airy-fairy pseudo spiritual approach embraced by so many where religious beliefs trump actions...what we do with what we have been given.

What is acceptable in the decoy churches is the lip-service of Jesus being divine WITHOUT any obedience to Jesus in His humanity. So we are in a quandary...since there is NO balance in the churches of today, should we prefer one half-truth over the other?

When both these are compared...we see aspects of the truth...but no depth or balance. Basically, NOT the gospel. Neither is according to the gospel.

I preach a spiritual Christianity with the church being a spiritual fellowship of Christ followers...who hold to Jesus being BOTH human AND divine.

As such I weigh the ACTIONS of one extreme over the other. In the case of those who seek to follow Jesus' human side...we see so often self-sacrifice, love of others, and willingness to suffer. On the side of the hypocrites who name and claim the divine benefits of Jesus...we see assumptions and presumptions...naming and claiming...claiming to be saved by these...who REFUSE to emulate Jesus in His humanity, disdaining the human Christ by calling obedience to Him...a works salvation. As if all who obeyed Jesus did so for the same selfish reasons they were "accepting" Jesus' sacrifice for themselves. We judge others as WE are, so often.

So which extreme is better? I say, extreme because neither is the truth. Neither is balanced and represents the real Jesus.

Since we will be judged by our works, NOT our beliefs...I would think that DOING what Jesus would do is better than claiming Him as an idol for an afterlife salvation.

Can we condemn the one extreme without also condemning the other? Or are we also invested in naming and claiming and saying that those who follow Jesus' humanity are going to hell for it, as any carnally minded fundamentalist would...thereby justifying the importance of their own ideological opinions? Or is it...he who is not against Me is for Me?

Can we see that followers of Jesus' humanity (social gospel) are challenging us to NOT be hypocritical in our witness to the world?
Many words can be made about 'terms' yet ultimately the Gospel is social. It is God's activity/ attempt to create friendships with us who assume he is opposed to us.....or do we think he is only opposed to the wicked?
Isn't dying for sinners his MO?
 

Hepzibah

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Agreed. But seeking with a whole heart is very difficult....seemingly impossible. Of course with God all things are possible.

My need is not so great at this time that I know how to cry out with ALL my heart. I am blessed. And that very blessing makes it harder for me to think I need God as for my next breath.

There was a certain king who had a magnificent soldier...who was so brave that he inspired the whole army to many victories. The king had the man brought before him and said...anything you desire in my kingdom is yours. The soldier responded...my king I'm dying of a terrible disease. The king sent his best physicians to cure him....and did so.

In the next battle the now-healed soldier held back and the battle was a draw...many lives were lost. The king summoned the soldier once again asking l him....what took your courage away? The soldier replied...you did O king. Before I had nothing to live for but now I do.

I'm not saying I'm like the soldier, but crying out with a whole heart is very hard to do. And I'm a very zealous man. But just not 100% at this time, I suppose. In the meantime, being absent from the Lord, I do all to be at least acceptable with God. :)
I understand this last comment. Been there. The answer is Phil. 2:13. We can pray that He will make us willing to be restored so that we can walk in holiness once more. Cry out for it, because in these dark times, we need to have that discernment so we can help others and not get caught up in time wasting. Every minute counts in the warfare.
 

marks

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I understand this last comment. Been there. The answer is Phil. 2:13. We can pray that He will make us willing to be restored so that we can walk in holiness once more. Cry out for it, because in these dark times, we need to have that discernment so we can help others and not get caught up in time wasting. Every minute counts in the warfare.
I don't understand. Why do you not believe you are able to live holy by walking in the Spirit by faith?

Much love!
 

Johann

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I understand this last comment. Been there. The answer is Phil. 2:13. We can pray that He will make us willing to be restored so that we can walk in holiness once more. Cry out for it, because in these dark times, we need to have that discernment so we can help others and not get caught up in time wasting. Every minute counts in the warfare.
Looks like the Wesleyan Holiness Movement is still going strong-no offense brother.


F.F. Bruce, a renowned biblical scholar and theologian, has written extensively on the concept of holiness in his various commentaries and works. Here’s a summary of his perspective on holiness based on his writings:

Holiness in the Writings of F.F. Bruce
Definition and Nature:

Bruce defines holiness primarily as being set apart for God and His purposes. It involves both moral purity and dedication to God. Holiness is not merely about ethical behavior but about being consecrated to God and living in a way that reflects His character.
Old Testament Foundation:

In his writings, Bruce often refers to the Old Testament concept of holiness, which involves the idea of being distinct and separate from common or profane things. For example, in Leviticus, God calls Israel to be holy as He is holy (Leviticus 19:2), emphasizing the need for the Israelites to live distinctively as God's people.
New Testament Fulfillment:

Bruce explains that in the New Testament, holiness takes on a deeper, Christ-centered dimension. Through Jesus Christ, believers are sanctified and called to live holy lives. Holiness is seen as both a positional reality (being made holy through Christ) and a practical pursuit (living out that holiness in daily life).

Practical Implications:

Holiness, according to Bruce, involves ethical living and moral purity. It includes abstaining from sin and living in obedience to God's commands. In his commentary on the Pauline Epistles, Bruce emphasizes that holiness is evident in the transformed life of a believer, characterized by the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and a commitment to godly living.
Communal Aspect:

Bruce also highlights the communal aspect of holiness. The Church, as the body of Christ, is called to be a holy community. This involves mutual encouragement and accountability among believers to live in a manner worthy of their calling (Ephesians 4:1).
Quotes from F.F. Bruce
Here are some specific quotes from F.F. Bruce's writings that capture his view on holiness:

Commentary on Romans:

"Holiness is not an optional extra in the Christian life; it is a necessary consequence of the salvation achieved by Christ and applied to the believer by the Spirit."
Commentary on 1 Peter:

"To be holy as God is holy means to reflect the character of God in our conduct. It is a call to ethical and moral purity that flows from our relationship with God through Christ."
Commentary on Hebrews:

"Sanctification, or the process of becoming holy, is both a completed work in Christ and an ongoing process in the believer's life. It is about being set apart for God's purposes and growing in likeness to Christ."
Conclusion
F.F. Bruce’s understanding of holiness encompasses both positional and practical aspects. It is about being set apart for God, reflecting His character, and living a life of moral purity and ethical conduct. Holiness is a central theme in both the Old and New Testaments, fulfilled in Christ and manifested in the lives of believers and the community of the Church.

Absolute Holiness
1. God's Holiness:

Absolute Nature: God's holiness is absolute, meaning it is intrinsic and perfect. God's very nature is holy, and He is the ultimate standard of holiness. This aspect of holiness is unchanging and independent of anything external.
Scriptural References:
Isaiah 6:3 (ESV): "And one called to another and said: 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!'"
1 Peter 1:16 (ESV): "Since it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'"
Theological Perspective: Theologians like F.F. Bruce emphasize that God's holiness is an essential attribute of His being, reflecting His purity, righteousness, and separation from sin.
Relative Holiness
1. Human Holiness:

Relative Nature:
Human holiness is relative in the sense that it involves a process of becoming holy and is dependent on one's relationship with God. Believers are called to grow in holiness, reflecting God's character to the best of their ability, but their holiness is never perfect or absolute in this life.


Scriptural References:

Hebrews 12:14 (ESV): "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

2 Corinthians 7:1 (ESV): "Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God."

Theological Perspective: F.F. Bruce and other theologians often describe human holiness as both positional (set apart by God) and progressive (growing in Christlikeness). It is relative because it is measured against God's absolute holiness and is a dynamic process of sanctification.
2. Communal and Contextual Aspects:

Communal Nature: The Church, as a community of believers, is called to be holy. This communal holiness is relative as it depends on the collective growth and sanctification of its members.
Contextual Nature: Holiness can also be understood in relative terms based on different contexts and situations in life. Believers are called to live out holiness in various aspects of their daily lives, reflecting God's character in diverse circumstances.
Integrative Understanding
To synthesize, F.F. Bruce and other scholars often approach holiness with an integrative understanding:

Absolute Holiness of God: Recognizing that God's holiness is absolute, perfect, and the ultimate standard.
Relative Holiness of Believers: Acknowledging that human holiness is relative, involving growth and dependence on God's grace and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Conclusion
Holiness is both absolute and relative:

Absolute in the sense that it is a defining attribute of God, who is perfectly and intrinsically holy.

Relative in the sense that human holiness is a process of becoming more like God, marked by continuous growth, dependence on divine grace, and the transformative work of the Holy Spirit.
This dual perspective helps believers understand their call to holiness while recognizing their ongoing need for God's sanctifying power.

Love reading FF Bruce.
 
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Johann

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Looks like the Wesleyan Holiness Movement is still going strong-no offense brother.


F.F. Bruce, a renowned biblical scholar and theologian, has written extensively on the concept of holiness in his various commentaries and works. Here’s a summary of his perspective on holiness based on his writings:

Holiness in the Writings of F.F. Bruce
Definition and Nature:

Bruce defines holiness primarily as being set apart for God and His purposes. It involves both moral purity and dedication to God. Holiness is not merely about ethical behavior but about being consecrated to God and living in a way that reflects His character.
Old Testament Foundation:

In his writings, Bruce often refers to the Old Testament concept of holiness, which involves the idea of being distinct and separate from common or profane things. For example, in Leviticus, God calls Israel to be holy as He is holy (Leviticus 19:2), emphasizing the need for the Israelites to live distinctively as God's people.
New Testament Fulfillment:

Bruce explains that in the New Testament, holiness takes on a deeper, Christ-centered dimension. Through Jesus Christ, believers are sanctified and called to live holy lives. Holiness is seen as both a positional reality (being made holy through Christ) and a practical pursuit (living out that holiness in daily life).

Practical Implications:

Holiness, according to Bruce, involves ethical living and moral purity. It includes abstaining from sin and living in obedience to God's commands. In his commentary on the Pauline Epistles, Bruce emphasizes that holiness is evident in the transformed life of a believer, characterized by the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and a commitment to godly living.
Communal Aspect:

Bruce also highlights the communal aspect of holiness. The Church, as the body of Christ, is called to be a holy community. This involves mutual encouragement and accountability among believers to live in a manner worthy of their calling (Ephesians 4:1).
Quotes from F.F. Bruce
Here are some specific quotes from F.F. Bruce's writings that capture his view on holiness:

Commentary on Romans:

"Holiness is not an optional extra in the Christian life; it is a necessary consequence of the salvation achieved by Christ and applied to the believer by the Spirit."
Commentary on 1 Peter:

"To be holy as God is holy means to reflect the character of God in our conduct. It is a call to ethical and moral purity that flows from our relationship with God through Christ."
Commentary on Hebrews:

"Sanctification, or the process of becoming holy, is both a completed work in Christ and an ongoing process in the believer's life. It is about being set apart for God's purposes and growing in likeness to Christ."
Conclusion
F.F. Bruce’s understanding of holiness encompasses both positional and practical aspects. It is about being set apart for God, reflecting His character, and living a life of moral purity and ethical conduct. Holiness is a central theme in both the Old and New Testaments, fulfilled in Christ and manifested in the lives of believers and the community of the Church.

Absolute Holiness
1. God's Holiness:

Absolute Nature: God's holiness is absolute, meaning it is intrinsic and perfect. God's very nature is holy, and He is the ultimate standard of holiness. This aspect of holiness is unchanging and independent of anything external.
Scriptural References:
Isaiah 6:3 (ESV): "And one called to another and said: 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!'"
1 Peter 1:16 (ESV): "Since it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'"
Theological Perspective: Theologians like F.F. Bruce emphasize that God's holiness is an essential attribute of His being, reflecting His purity, righteousness, and separation from sin.
Relative Holiness
1. Human Holiness:

Relative Nature:
Human holiness is relative in the sense that it involves a process of becoming holy and is dependent on one's relationship with God. Believers are called to grow in holiness, reflecting God's character to the best of their ability, but their holiness is never perfect or absolute in this life.


Scriptural References:

Hebrews 12:14 (ESV): "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

2 Corinthians 7:1 (ESV): "Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God."

Theological Perspective: F.F. Bruce and other theologians often describe human holiness as both positional (set apart by God) and progressive (growing in Christlikeness). It is relative because it is measured against God's absolute holiness and is a dynamic process of sanctification.
2. Communal and Contextual Aspects:

Communal Nature: The Church, as a community of believers, is called to be holy. This communal holiness is relative as it depends on the collective growth and sanctification of its members.
Contextual Nature: Holiness can also be understood in relative terms based on different contexts and situations in life. Believers are called to live out holiness in various aspects of their daily lives, reflecting God's character in diverse circumstances.
Integrative Understanding
To synthesize, F.F. Bruce and other scholars often approach holiness with an integrative understanding:

Absolute Holiness of God: Recognizing that God's holiness is absolute, perfect, and the ultimate standard.
Relative Holiness of Believers: Acknowledging that human holiness is relative, involving growth and dependence on God's grace and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Conclusion
Holiness is both absolute and relative:

Absolute in the sense that it is a defining attribute of God, who is perfectly and intrinsically holy.

Relative in the sense that human holiness is a process of becoming more like God, marked by continuous growth, dependence on divine grace, and the transformative work of the Holy Spirit.
This dual perspective helps believers understand their call to holiness while recognizing their ongoing need for God's sanctifying power.

Love reading FF Bruce.
 

Johann

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I no longer have any regard for Calvinist teachings, even the moderate. They do not follow the early church BEFORE Augustine.
So you read the Early Church Fathers but reject the Puritans and Reformers-where is the "Eat the chicken, spit out the bones?"
I just found FF Bruce and now are looking for his commentaries in any format-any help out there folks?
J.
 

Johann

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I no longer have any regard for Calvinist teachings, even the moderate. They do not follow the early church BEFORE Augustine.
A Study of Holiness from the Early Church Fathers
By J. B. Galloway

Chapter 14
HOLINESS THROUGH ALL AGES OF THE CHURCH
Holiness is one of the highest attributes of God. Man was created in His image, not the physical image, but in His moral likeness. "Which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24). Man lost his blessed holy estate by the fall, but the new man may be restored again to holiness through the merits of our Saviour. The first thing that God did to set man an example was to rest upon the Sabbath day; He sanctified it and made it holy. God not only created man in His image of holiness, but He wishes man to be like Him through all the ages. "Be ye holy; for I am holy" (I Peter 1:16).

God would not permit Moses to approach Him without first recognizing His holiness. The Holy Spirit anointed the judges and kings of Israel. Samuel anointed David with oil, and the Spirit of the Lord came upon him from that day forward (I Samuel 16:13). The prophets were moved and spake by the Spirit. Isaiah was only a man of unclean lips until God touched him with the fire and Holy Spirit. John the Baptist had a special anointing of the Holy Ghost, and so did Jesus. The apostles received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost; and time and time again the Holy Spirit came upon them with fresh power in times of need.

The birthday of the Church was a baptism of the Holy Ghost, and this same power has been found in the Church ever since. Sometimes only a few have professed it, but God never has been without a witness of holiness in the earth. Paul was constantly talking about it. When the Church needed to select officers, the qualification for deacons was "men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom." When new converts believed, as at Ephesus, the Church sent down certain disciples, who inquired, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" And when they heard that they had not, they laid their hands on them, and "they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Great Bible scholars and church historians recognize the fact that it was the custom of the Early Church to pray for all believers to be filled with the Spirit. The usual custom was to baptize the converts, and then the elders would lay their hands upon them and pray that they might receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Early Church believed in and prayed for the filling of the Holy Spirit, and this was the secret of their great power. They lived in the Spirit, walked in the Spirit, prayed in the Spirit, and testified in the Spirit. They were undaunted in persecution because they were helped by the Holy Spirit within them.

Many writers before the days of Constantine have left their testimony that they believed in and lived a life of holiness; from some of these we have quoted. The same thing is seen in the literature coming from Ambrose, Chrysostom, Jerome, and Augustine. When the Church became ritualistic and formal, the Latins demanded fourscore pounds of gold for the anointing oil, and there was a quarrel between the Roman and the Greek Catholic churches. The Greeks rejected the authority of the Roman bishop, and began to consecrate their own anointing oil; and since that time they have been separate churches.

From time to time through the Dark Ages witnesses to the truth of holiness appeared, and with the dawn of the Reformation the light begins to shine again. The Quietist movement among the Roman Catholics, which centered around Fenelon and Madame Guyon, and the Quakers among the Protestants, were two great movements to make the whole Church feel the need of being filled with and led by the Holy Spirit.

John Calvin acknowledged that the custom of praying for the new converts to be filled with the Holy Ghost was derived from the apostles, and admitted that the Protestants should have something in the place of it, yet did not emphasize this in his teachings. We read this from his "Commentaries" when commenting on Hebrews 6:2, which speaks of laying on of hands:

This one passage abundantly testifies that this rite had its beginning from the Apostles, which afterwards, however, was turned into superstition, as the world almost always degenerates into corruption ..... Wherefore the pure institution at this day ought to be retained, but the superstition ought to be removed.

In Oxford University there was a group of students who were seeking after holiness; they were ridiculed and called the "Holy Club." Soon we hear of the great Wesley revival which was conducted by some of the former members of this club. They placed great emphasis upon the Holy Spirit and the doctrine of sanctification. Wesley said that the purpose of the Methodist church was to spread scriptural holiness over the lands. He says in his Journal that at one time there were almost as many people seeking and claiming entire sanctification as claimed salvation in his meetings. When the movement spread to America, hundreds and thousands were reached. Many were professing the blessing of holiness for many years in the Methodist meetings, especially in the revival and camp meetings. Then the modern holiness movement began to be heard of; at first it was interdenominational. Those who believed in and professed the experience of holiness, from all churches, began to get together in associations and hold revivals and camp meetings all over America, and also in other countries.

As opposition became more and more marked, it soon became evident that, if the cause of holiness was to be conserved, it would be necessary to organize the work. Then little holiness churches began to appear in the eastern part of our country, and almost simultaneously they appeared on the western coast, and in the South. Several of these churches united under the leadership of Dr. P. F. Bresee and Dr. H. F. Reynolds, and the Church of the Nazarene came into existence in 1908. Other holiness churches appeared, and thousands now belong to the holiness churches. Hundreds of young people are in the holiness colleges, and other holiness institutions are aiding in various capacities to carry on the work. Thousands of pages of holiness literature are coming from the presses of the publishing houses of those who believe in holiness. Holiness churches and revival meetings dot the land from coast to coast where the holy fire burns upon the altar; and sacrificing missionaries are carrying the message of full salvation to the ends of the earth.

The long list of the holy saints of God who have lived and preached holiness is too numerous to mention, but God has them all recorded in the Book of Life. The apostles carried the message of holiness from the Upper Room on the Day of Pentecost to the Jews, and Paul was not satisfied until he had carried the same truth to almost all the great Gentile cities. John laid down the work at Ephesus at the close of the first Christian century; then the long stream of heroes carried the same truth to the multitudes from that day to this.

There are Polycarp, Clement, Barnabas, and Hermas of the early days of the Church, preaching the truth. Ambrose, Athanasius, and Chrysostom followed the days of Constantine with the blessed, holy gospel; and a few lights here and there shined out from the Dark Ages with the message of holiness. Savonarola thundered against sin and worldliness in the streets of cultured Florence until the people knew that they must live holy lives. One of the vilest popes had him burned on the public square of the city he had done so much for and loved so dearly. Fenelon and Madame Guyon were bright lights for holiness among the Catholics.

Then there are George Fox, John and Charles Wesley, George Whitefield, and John Fletcher in England. There are Jonathan and Mrs. Edwards, David Brainerd, and Asbury, who enjoyed the blessing of holiness in the early history of America; they are followed by Upham, Mahan, Charles Finney, the great revivalist who preached holiness. And we may mention Harriet Beecher Stowe, Mrs. Phoebe Palmer, Frances Ridley Havergal, Frances Willard, and Hannah Whitall Smith, who wrote The Christian's Secret of a Happy Life, and a host of others from among the noble women who enjoyed the blessing of holiness. Then there are A. B. Simpson, David Updegraff, Daniel Steele of Boston University, J. A. Wood, Inskip, and McDonald, all great holiness preachers; and on down to our sainted Dr. P. F. Bresee-these all died in the faith.

Today, hundreds are preaching the same message of holiness to the masses; almost everywhere you go there is an advocate of holiness. Who has not heard of the late Bud Robinson, who for so many years preached holiness every time he spoke?

The Church Of The Nazarene And Holiness














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marks

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AS holy as God or Christ Jesus-even in the sphere of the Spirit-or relatively @marks.
In whatever way God intends for me personally to walk. I'm not to "rate" myself. A walk unhindered by flesh, and characterized by the fruit of the Spirit.

In the Spirit I don't really think about myself, and I don't care to. I don't matter to myself.

I don't believe in "second benefit holiness" or whatever you want to call it, I believe in walking in His promises, which when I do that with a single heart, well, actually, that's what I think epis is getting at with his "social gospel", as whatever I do is to care for others, or to do the self care needed to stay healthy in whatever respect. But that is the walk in the Spirit, where we are not chosing sin, and our works are what God intends for us.

Holiness is about purpose. Either I'm living my purpose, or I'm living His purpose. If what I'm doing is what God intends for me, that is holiness.

But as for making absolute judgments about myself - like, I've ceased from sin - it's not for me to do.

Much love!
 

marks

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Looks like the Wesleyan Holiness Movement is still going strong-no offense brother.


F.F. Bruce, a renowned biblical scholar and theologian, has written extensively on the concept of holiness in his various commentaries and works. Here’s a summary of his perspective on holiness based on his writings:

Holiness in the Writings of F.F. Bruce
Definition and Nature:

Bruce defines holiness primarily as being set apart for God and His purposes. It involves both moral purity and dedication to God. Holiness is not merely about ethical behavior but about being consecrated to God and living in a way that reflects His character.
Old Testament Foundation:

In his writings, Bruce often refers to the Old Testament concept of holiness, which involves the idea of being distinct and separate from common or profane things. For example, in Leviticus, God calls Israel to be holy as He is holy (Leviticus 19:2), emphasizing the need for the Israelites to live distinctively as God's people.
New Testament Fulfillment:

Bruce explains that in the New Testament, holiness takes on a deeper, Christ-centered dimension. Through Jesus Christ, believers are sanctified and called to live holy lives. Holiness is seen as both a positional reality (being made holy through Christ) and a practical pursuit (living out that holiness in daily life).

Practical Implications:

Holiness, according to Bruce, involves ethical living and moral purity. It includes abstaining from sin and living in obedience to God's commands. In his commentary on the Pauline Epistles, Bruce emphasizes that holiness is evident in the transformed life of a believer, characterized by the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) and a commitment to godly living.
Communal Aspect:

Bruce also highlights the communal aspect of holiness. The Church, as the body of Christ, is called to be a holy community. This involves mutual encouragement and accountability among believers to live in a manner worthy of their calling (Ephesians 4:1).
Quotes from F.F. Bruce
Here are some specific quotes from F.F. Bruce's writings that capture his view on holiness:

Commentary on Romans:

"Holiness is not an optional extra in the Christian life; it is a necessary consequence of the salvation achieved by Christ and applied to the believer by the Spirit."
Commentary on 1 Peter:

"To be holy as God is holy means to reflect the character of God in our conduct. It is a call to ethical and moral purity that flows from our relationship with God through Christ."
Commentary on Hebrews:

"Sanctification, or the process of becoming holy, is both a completed work in Christ and an ongoing process in the believer's life. It is about being set apart for God's purposes and growing in likeness to Christ."
Conclusion
F.F. Bruce’s understanding of holiness encompasses both positional and practical aspects. It is about being set apart for God, reflecting His character, and living a life of moral purity and ethical conduct. Holiness is a central theme in both the Old and New Testaments, fulfilled in Christ and manifested in the lives of believers and the community of the Church.

Absolute Holiness
1. God's Holiness:

Absolute Nature: God's holiness is absolute, meaning it is intrinsic and perfect. God's very nature is holy, and He is the ultimate standard of holiness. This aspect of holiness is unchanging and independent of anything external.
Scriptural References:
Isaiah 6:3 (ESV): "And one called to another and said: 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!'"
1 Peter 1:16 (ESV): "Since it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'"
Theological Perspective: Theologians like F.F. Bruce emphasize that God's holiness is an essential attribute of His being, reflecting His purity, righteousness, and separation from sin.
Relative Holiness
1. Human Holiness:

Relative Nature:
Human holiness is relative in the sense that it involves a process of becoming holy and is dependent on one's relationship with God. Believers are called to grow in holiness, reflecting God's character to the best of their ability, but their holiness is never perfect or absolute in this life.


Scriptural References:

Hebrews 12:14 (ESV): "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

2 Corinthians 7:1 (ESV): "Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God."

Theological Perspective: F.F. Bruce and other theologians often describe human holiness as both positional (set apart by God) and progressive (growing in Christlikeness). It is relative because it is measured against God's absolute holiness and is a dynamic process of sanctification.
2. Communal and Contextual Aspects:

Communal Nature: The Church, as a community of believers, is called to be holy. This communal holiness is relative as it depends on the collective growth and sanctification of its members.
Contextual Nature: Holiness can also be understood in relative terms based on different contexts and situations in life. Believers are called to live out holiness in various aspects of their daily lives, reflecting God's character in diverse circumstances.
Integrative Understanding
To synthesize, F.F. Bruce and other scholars often approach holiness with an integrative understanding:

Absolute Holiness of God: Recognizing that God's holiness is absolute, perfect, and the ultimate standard.
Relative Holiness of Believers: Acknowledging that human holiness is relative, involving growth and dependence on God's grace and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Conclusion
Holiness is both absolute and relative:

Absolute in the sense that it is a defining attribute of God, who is perfectly and intrinsically holy.

Relative in the sense that human holiness is a process of becoming more like God, marked by continuous growth, dependence on divine grace, and the transformative work of the Holy Spirit.
This dual perspective helps believers understand their call to holiness while recognizing their ongoing need for God's sanctifying power.

Love reading FF Bruce.
I agree with everything here, with the possible exception:

"but their holiness is never perfect or absolute in this life."

I wouldn't rule that out, as God is able to do anything. But as I've said, I don't believe it's our place to say, so on a practical level, this is a non-issue for me. We simply do our level best to live our new life as God intends, and let Him be the one to say how well we are or are not doing.

And I say "possible exception" because of such statments as, "He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ:" as if this work will continue all our lives. So I expect that is the reality, we will be a work in process our entire lives.

One thing I find quite sobering, God knows exactly how much effort and sincerity I am putting into living out my faith. No games with Him!

Much love!
 

Johann

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In whatever way God intends for me personally to walk. I'm not to "rate" myself. A walk unhindered by flesh, and characterized by the fruit of the Spirit.

In the Spirit I don't really think about myself, and I don't care to. I don't matter to myself.

I don't believe in "second benefit holiness" or whatever you want to call it, I believe in walking in His promises, which when I do that with a single heart, well, actually, that's what I think epis is getting at with his "social gospel", as whatever I do is to care for others, or to do the self care needed to stay healthy in whatever respect. But that is the walk in the Spirit, where we are not chosing sin, and our works are what God intends for us.

Holiness is about purpose. Either I'm living my purpose, or I'm living His purpose. If what I'm doing is what God intends for me, that is holiness.

But as for making absolute judgments about myself - like, I've ceased from sin - it's not for me to do.

Much love!
Epi goes on experiences and divine visitations-talking his walk so I don't take him seriously-you brother @marks seem a bit "evasive" on my direct question-no offense.

Maybe this will help.

Scripture Indicating God's Unique Holiness
Isaiah 6:3 (ESV):

"And one called to another and said: 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!'"
This passage emphasizes the thrice-repeated "holy" which underscores the absolute and unique holiness of God.
1 Samuel 2:2 (ESV):

"There is none holy like the Lord: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God."
This verse explicitly states that there is no one holy like the Lord, highlighting His unique and unmatched holiness.

Revelation 15:4 (ESV):

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
This passage affirms that God alone is holy and worthy of worship, emphasizing His exclusive holiness.
Scripture Indicating God Will Not Share His Glory
Isaiah 42:8 (ESV):

"I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols."
This verse states that God does not share His glory with anyone else, reinforcing the idea that His holiness and glory are uniquely His.
Isaiah 48:11 (ESV):

"For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."
Here, God declares that He will not give His glory to another, underlining the exclusivity of His divine holiness and glory.
Summary
These scriptures collectively affirm that:

God’s holiness is unique and unmatched; no one else possesses the holiness that God embodies.
God alone is holy, as repeatedly stated in the scriptures, which serves as a foundation for worship and reverence.
God will not share His glory or holiness with anyone else, highlighting His supreme and exclusive nature.

--so I ask again, "Are we AS holy as God, Christ Jesus even when walking in the sphere of the Spirit?
 
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Johann

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I agree with everything here, with the possible exception:

"but their holiness is never perfect or absolute in this life."

I wouldn't rule that out, as God is able to do anything. But as I've said, I don't believe it's our place to say, so on a practical level, this is a non-issue for me. We simply do our level best to live our new life as God intends, and let Him be the one to say how well we are or are not doing.

And I say "possible exception" because of such statments as, "He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ:" as if this work will continue all our lives. So I expect that is the reality, we will be a work in process our entire lives.

One thing I find quite sobering, God knows exactly how much effort and sincerity I am putting into living out my faith. No games with Him!

Much love!
Here is a seemingly contradiction-

"but their holiness is never perfect or absolute in this life." I wonder, is it because FF Bruce is a moderate Calvinist or do you believe we CAN be as holy as GOD?

You write-
I wouldn't rule that out, as God is able to do anything. But as I've said, I don't believe it's our place to say, so on a practical level, this is a non-issue for me. We simply do our level best to live our new life as God intends, and let Him be the one to say how well we are or are not doing.

You and I just touched the surface re Paul-I believe we can NEVER be as holy as God in this flesh of ours. There are way too many "little gods" running around, even on this Forum.
Charismania is taking this world by storm.

Good night brother-hope I did not cause offense as you DID write-

One thing I find quite sobering, God knows exactly how much effort and sincerity I am putting into living out my faith. No games with Him!
 
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