The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[TribulationSigns]

What is your problem?

Messengers like you.

Do you think the leading Jews didn't know their scriptures?

Do you think the false prophets and christs that deceive many didn't know their Scriptures today? No difference!

They knew, and still do today; that the Messiah will come as a conquering King.
The fact of Him coming first, as a suffering servant, threw them right off and made them kill Him.

LOL!

Christ NEVER preached of this carnal kingdom, doctrine or reign in a city in the Middle East, so what harmony would there be? The very nature of the way of salvation, the kingdom, and God's indivisible chosen people (Ephesians 2:11-22) is a fundamental and integral component of the gospel message. Like the leading Jews, the Dispensationalism is decidedly not that gospel of communion with Christ and we should never act as if false doctrine implying so doesn't matter. If that were true, why did the apostle Paul admonish Timothy concerning doctrine?

1st Timothy 4:16

• "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Should we continue in the faithful doctrine, or accept a new doctrine invented in the 1800's? Timothy and all of us are to take heed concerning doctrines, that they are of the uncorrupted word of God, and expounded faithfully according as has been handed down to the saints of the church with the greatest care against the same adulteration that befell the Judaizers. If kingdom doctrine didn't matter, the Old Testament Jews who held many of the exact same beliefs of Dispensationalists concerning the kingdom, would have not been condemned. Yet they were judged as a kingdom divided and not the children of God. A people void of the truth and that in reality had no Messiah. Indeed, doctrine matter, no matter how the Judaizers or Zionists in the church attempt to have it thought insignificant concerning salvation.

Matthew 16:6

• "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."

Why beware of something that doesn't matter with regard to salvation? Christ didn't say don't worry about doctrines where the kingdom is earthly in Jerusalem, or that the Pharisees and the Sadducees were "simply in error looking for a Messiah" that would rule in this Middle Eastern Earthly kingdom, or that their works based doctrines were insignificant misunderstanding in regards to salvation. He clearly condemned it as doctrines of Devils and warned his true followers to beware of their doctrines because the doctrines are not compatible with His kingdom. And indeed they were as deadly for those holding to them then, as they are to Dispensationalists holding revised versions now. The leaven Christ spoke of was their doctrines, which was likened unto leaven because it is used in bread to cause it to ferment (swell or rise). Doctrines do the same thing. It is that tiny ingredient that passes secretly and gives rise to this bread. The doctrines of the Sadducees and Pharisees gave rise, insinuating the plausibility of the implausible. They concealed in the bread the real intent of their doctrines, which is deception concerning the truth. It's not a war on Dispensationalism, not a war on Catholicism or on Preterism, but a war on false doctrines that have but one purpose--which is to deceive the simple (foolish).

SELAH!

(Continue to next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

On past experience, people like you and SI, have no moral fortitude to apologise for your obvious errors and nasty criticism of anyone who posts the truths of history and scripture.

I won't apologize for testifying the Truth according to Scripture. I won't make bones about it.

What you believe is a common belief, but it's a belief that is borne out of either a misunderstanding, wishful thinking, human desire, or misapplication of scripture. As far as the nation of Israel goes, it was used as a figure or corporate representation of the children of God (as the visible church today is). But at any time in history only a remnant of that body were truly saved. After the first advent of Christ, that external covenant nation body, which Israel was, fell, never to rise again. The New Covenant with Israel, the CHURCH, concerns a new dispensation and body of Jews and Gentiles alike. Israel never ceased and those of the eternal Covenant nation (the apostles and disciples) continued into the New Testament representation of the body of Christ. It was only the external Covenant nation that fell - those Jews, including the Pharisees, are blind. Because the Kingdom representation was taken away from the Jewish nation because of unbelief, and it will NEVER return to them, as that would be confusion. As far as the kingdom goes, Israel the nation, as the Old Testament representation, was brought to spiritual desolation at the cross. The reason so many do not comprehend this "truth" is because they have been brainwashed by evangelicals and church traditions, or they are political rather than Spiritual and thus do not comprehend the nature of the restoration. They look for Spiritual truths in physical places (like Israel, AD 70 (sorry, Preterists), earthly reigns, Physical temples and kingdoms) when Christ taught in allegories, Parables, and spiritual portraits.

Luke 17:20-21

• "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
• Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

The Kingdom wasn't coming that they would "physically see" it as the Jewish people thought. And that's the same fables that Premillennialists are teaching! Christ taught of a different Kingdom. His kingdom was NOT like the world's Kingdom. His Temple was not made with hands, Israel's desolation was not by Romans, and His prophecy is not defined by secular historians! The Kingdom Christ came to rule in is inside each and every "true" believer when the Spirit of Christ comes to dwell there.

Christ taught the Spiritual in His parables, but the Jews couldn't hear them. Just as many in the church today cannot hear them. It's not because they are not intelligent, it's sad to say that usually, it's because they don't have the Spirit of truth to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. It's the Spirit of truth that reveals what is correct, not people. Just as Christ said "unambiguously" that it was for this reason that he brought the word in parabolic form (Luke 8:10). It was so that seeing some might not see, and hearing some might not understand. Our Lord made no bones about it. So when professed Christians ask, "if God meant that, why didn't He say it plainly," We can retort that "actually, He did!" But according to who it was given to RECEIVE the mysteries, that is who will "see" and who will "understand." To the rest, it is done in parables that they would miss the truth. As far as the nation Israel, consider wisely and carefully how clearly Christ spoke of their fate. It is not a temporary judgment, but until Christ returns.

Matthew 21:33-46

• "Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
• And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
• And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
• Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
• But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
• But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
• And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
• When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
• They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
• Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
• And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
• But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."

The rulers of Israel "perceived" that Christ spoke of them, but they could NOT RECEIVE His truth. They instead resented the truth because they didn't have the "Spirit of Truth," and they hated Christ because He dared to speak correctly and rebuke them. Just as those today do when the truth about the congregation or eschatology is declared. As Christ said, if they hated Him, they would surely hate me.

 

[WPM]

On past experience, people like you and SI, have no moral fortitude to apologise for your obvious errors and nasty criticism of anyone who posts the truths of history and scripture.

More Premil projection.

 

[Keraz]

More Premil projection.

We all have different beliefs about Gods Plans for our future, despite the huge amount of Bible Prophecy we have available to us.
I have for some time, considered that posting what I believe will happen, as a waste of my time. It is also a waste of time to speak to other Christians on the subject of Bible Prophecy, often to the extent of causing antagonism.

Ignorant comments such as above, are just stirring the pot of error and confuzion.
It does seem, as I believe; that God does not want us to know His plans for our future.

What I gather from the Prophetic Word, is God will commence the end times with a massive, worldwide shakeup. Hebrews 12:26, Haggai 2:21-22
Hold on to your hats! AND trust the Lord for His protection.

 

[Timtofly]

The Lord is long-suffering! Remember in context this verse is in reference to what mankind should expect when the long-suffering of our Lord has ended. It shall be the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men, because the Lord is not slack concerning His promise but is long-suffering to "us-ward". IOW are not like those ungodly me. Though it seems the Lord's return is long delayed, it will not be. Because as soon as the "us-ward" come to repentance, the day of the Lord will come. When the heavens shall pass away and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works therein shall be burned up. In light of all this destruction destined to come, Christians must be holy and display godliness, not only looking for, but hasting the coming of the day of God.

2 Peter 3:7-12 (KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Notice in the verse you quoted, like the verses in Rev 20 do NOT say ONE thousand years as one day. It says "a thousand years" as one day. That again speaks of an undetermined amount of TIME that is likened unto the long-suffering of our Lord that will be what it will be and not one day more or less.

The Day of the Lord is compared to a thousand years. How is that missed?

You say the Day of the Lord is not literal, nor the thousand years, so nothing is being symbolized at all. How can both symbolize something literal, if you refuse to accept a literal point in this chapter? Not even the fire nor destruction of the earth should be literal, as the time frames mentioned are not literal either.

Since God is not effected by time, according to you, the longsuffering part is not literal from God's perspective, but symbolic of the fact God allows humans to suffer for thousands of years.

So what is exactly literal, if we cannot point out what is or what is not being symbolized?

The interpretation of the Day of the Lord is given by Peter as having the length of a thousand years. The Day of the Lord is symbolic pointing to a literal thousand years. God allows humans to remain in sin, because He is longsuffering, not because sin causes God suffering for extended periods of time.


God already viewed Jesus as the Lamb slain before creation. The Cross was the physical act in physical time. The Lamb was symbolic of the event from the perspective of eternity. Revelation 21 is not eternity. It is just a different creation from the one we currently exist in. Nothing created can exist in eternity, only within the framework of a creation. Eternity from our perspective is symbolic because it represents something we will never understand, thus we confuse eternity with the next creation.

The baptism of fire is symbolic in that it will destroy all the literal physical works, but not the literal physical destruction of creation itself. God could simply make everything vanish, but the act of God will be viewed as a literal fire that is selective in it's destruction. Not a literal fire that humans will endure. Especially since all the stars will come to earth, as angels. In modern thinking that is literally impossible. Or is humanity just deceived about what creation literally is?

Since Peter is telling the reader not to be ignorant, one of those time frames has to be literal. Either the day or a thousand years. Since sin has been ongoing for near 6,000 years, I don't see that as God being longsuffering for 6 literal days. To say that "a thousand" is just an indeterminate period of time makes no sense. We normally don't think of life in periods of thousand of years, but in each and every day we live. So Peter is turning the table on us and comparing God's perspective to our perspective. Since Peter is pointing out God's perspective, a day is symbolic and the thousand years are literal. That would make more sense than saying each literal day feels like a symbolic thousand years to either party.

The Day of the Lord has been Scripturally significant as the Sabbath. The 7th day of each week was supposed to be a constant reminder of that first Sabbath, which was not a literal day. The first Sabbath was a day of the Lord in which was the creation of heaven and earth.