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The Righteous
- Thread starter Episkopos
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If a person is righteous in his own strength (apart from Christ), then his righteousness is as filthy rags (menstrual flow)...Isaiah 64:6.
It is like the scribes and Pharisees who were impeccably righteous before men...Jesus said that they were like whited sepulchres that appeared outwardly righteous before men...but on the inside they were full of dead men's bones. However they were righteous...
Paul mentions in Philippians 3 that before he met Christ he was outwardly perfect and blameless according to the law (righteous by human standards)...he lived as a Pharisee. However he admits elsewhere (in Romans 7) that on the inside he was not righteous (as he had a covetous nature).
Therefore he counted his outward impecccability as a Pharisee to be dung in comparison to knowing Jesus and receiving from Him the righteousness which is of God by faith...which translated as a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27, 2 Corinthians 5:17, John 3:3).
It is like the scribes and Pharisees who were impeccably righteous before men...Jesus said that they were like whited sepulchres that appeared outwardly righteous before men...but on the inside they were full of dead men's bones. However they were righteous...
Paul mentions in Philippians 3 that before he met Christ he was outwardly perfect and blameless according to the law (righteous by human standards)...he lived as a Pharisee. However he admits elsewhere (in Romans 7) that on the inside he was not righteous (as he had a covetous nature).
Therefore he counted his outward impecccability as a Pharisee to be dung in comparison to knowing Jesus and receiving from Him the righteousness which is of God by faith...which translated as a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27, 2 Corinthians 5:17, John 3:3).
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The problem is that @Enoch111 seems to be saying that our actions are never completely righteous until God makes them righteous and @Episkopos is saying that our human righteousness must come before God makes our actions His Righteousness.
Abraham's actions before God sent him to Canaan were what caused God to send him there. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac was justified because he was obeying (and trusting) God.
In both cases Abraham was a sinner, in both cases Abraham was doing Human righteousness; when God imputed His Righteousness on Abraham, that is when Abraham's actions became truly Righteous.
Both @Enoch111 & @Episkopos are saying the same thing.
:)
The problem is that @Enoch111 seems to be saying that our actions are never completely righteous until God makes them righteous and @Episkopos is saying that our human righteousness must come before God makes our actions His Righteousness.
Abraham's actions before God sent him to Canaan were what caused God to send him there. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac was justified because he was obeying (and trusting) God.
In both cases Abraham was a sinner, in both cases Abraham was doing Human righteousness; when God imputed His Righteousness on Abraham, that is when Abraham's actions became truly Righteous.
Both @Enoch111 & @Episkopos are saying the same thing.
Not really. :) I'm saying that the righteousnesses are distinct. We do the possible and God does the impossible. But we are leaning righteousness through the example of His righteousness.
God's righteousness is always His own. And what God imputes to us is our OWN righteousness. He GIFTS to us His righteousness.....so that we can learn righteousness. Like in the parable of the talents. We receive a talent in order to make another talent...our own... He gets His back since it was never ours.
The whole point is to learn to be formed into the image of Christ.
Other people deny this...and say that God pretends we are righteous....which we will never learn to be. That we can't add anything to our faith...which is in direct opposition to many verses including 2 Peter 1.
The issue is the denial of a real righteousness of God that does the impossible....so that God's righteousness is reduced to what men are sill just guessing at. So then this idea destroys BOTH righteousnesses.
In their scheme even God's righteousness is as filthy rags...because there is NO miraculous power in it to overcome all things....and sin.
So I see 2 righteousnesses to acquire. Others only see a religious semblance of one....which is untrue....therefore none.
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I see everything through the prism of Obedience. So, I am going to see righteousness through that prism. Perhaps you see everything through the prism of Righteousness. Then you see Obedience in terms of Righteousness. That could cause me to misinterpret your basic statements. You sound like you think that our righteousness has nothing to do with obedience to God. But then you seem to contradict that, saying the opposite.
Likewise, I have no idea what the actual heresy you are combatting is. Any time I have heard someone say to the effect that God pretends we are righteous, I understand them to be saying that our sins are forgiven.
When you say, "The whole point is to learn to be formed into the image of Christ." I understand that only in terms of Salvation. Why would I want to be reformed into the image of Christ if I am not saved?
From my perspective, any thing I do that could be called "righteous" that is done outside of Obedience to God is done in opposition to Him. If I help the hurricane victims on my own initiative then I am just trying to rack up Heaven Entrance Points, which is Pagan Heresy. And, more importantly, those efforts will not be "Kingdom Effective". That is, they won't be nearly as helpful to those in need as the efforts of someone who is obediently providing assistance.
How that fits into your idea of "two righteousnesses" I do not know. But I do think you understand righteousness in a way that I do not. So be it. We can be Christian Siblings and see these points differently.
Like the Mobius strip there is actually only one side to any argument. God's side. It's just your location on the strip that determines your perspective.
And WOE to those who are not on the strip...
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Jun2u
Well-Known Member
Some people...
What part of what God said in Romans 3:10 did you not understand?
I think you have found the master verse that cancels out all other verses....or you just don't understand a biblical point.
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Jun2u
Well-Known Member
I assure you Romans 3:10 is God's assessment of all the peoples in the world without exception. And, if there is no one righteous therefore righteousness has to be given, and indeed according to John 3:27, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from above.
"The heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it." (Jeremiah 17:9).
Do you still believe I do not understand a biblical point? I do believe man has feet of clay and I would rather believe God than man!!!
To God Be The Glory
@Episkopos ..
I have read enough on this thread to know that Epi, you are a false teacher and selling a false doctrine regarding righteousness.
Your post #9 essentially says it all…………..there’s much more of course..
-------------------------below is your post intertwined with my comments in bold italics----------------------
“Let's say OUR righteousness...is yellow.
Is this a ‘good’ necessary, temporary righteousness, one that appeals to God before we are converted or not - it does have a purpose???
Let's say God's righteousness....is blue.
When these are mixed together....we get green. This mixture is iniquity...
We are called to purge ourselves from iniquity. IOW we are to not mix up God's righteousness with our own. When one does that...it destroys both righteousnesses.
So, what do we do or what is the purpose of our ‘good’ righteousness? Preparation for eventual salvation?
We are self-righteous when we were sinners and righteous in God through Christ when we are believers. They never mix. One is mutually exclusive of the other. It is one or the other. There are never two righteousnesses in a person. If a person believes otherwise, then they are not converted, IMO!
There is a third righteousness that is then self-righteousness if we do not do it for the right reasons and attitude. Where’s the self-righteousness color code? (rhetorical)
So then what we hear mainly these days for doctrines...is the mixture.
Not true at all!
“The OP is about what we do that is seen as right. That is our own righteousness. This isn't done to appear righteous. It is done because it is the right thing to do. Those who do things to APPEAR righteous.....are SELF-righteous. But those who are not looking at appearing righteous.....but just doing right...are just righteous.”
----------------------------
You are inferring that there is a way that an unbeliever can do and learn acceptable righteousness 101 as the first step before the righteousness at conversion of God himself or even imputed with God’s righteousness; that is not considered self- righteousness?
If somehow, as you again infer, we are not showy and doing the ‘right thing’ then God will accept it as a form of righteousness or even suggesting the possibility that he will credit us with righteousness, under the age of grace. Sounds like faithful works under the Law as Abraham and others where credited with righteousness. We are under grace today and not under the Law.
I think you also have deliberately added in and misapplied OT scripture that only applies to righteousness under grace, where some with true righteousness of God had zeal for him and faith in him, under the Law. Apples and Oranges.
No matter how you want to sugar coat how righteous works, under GRACE, and not performed in FAITH (as an unbeliever) is always sin and death. These are always self-righteous acts using their own carnal mind and their own will as they set the bar for what God will accept.
And because of your very flawed premise, the scripture you apply to it, it is also twisted. In the interest of the length of this writing I will gladly correct all the scripture you have tainted to suit your damming doctrine.
This is a beauty of yours and is very telling….
As you wrote in # 53: “If we can't understand (added in: ‘good’ not self) righteousness on the human level (added in: as an unbeliever only)...how will we ever understand what God's righteousness means (added in: as a believer only when they are off the human level…humor here)?”
The basic flaw in this statement is that it must only apply to an unbeliever who then knows he shall become, a believer in the future. If it applied to an eventual believer, then did the previous sinner know he was learning an acceptable righteousness before God?
And then it is an impossible statement as an unbeliever will never know he is learning a ‘good’ and justifiable form of righteousness in’ doing the right thing’ as somehow a prerequisite to understand God’s righteousness is perfect or better when they know they are going to be converted in the future.
Quite an incredible and unbelievable statement indeed…
Again, we cannot ever ‘do the right thing’ as any form of righteousness when not in Christ. We do not learn righteousness that can be useful later and that appeals to God under grace as a sinner. Please do not preach otherwise.
I generally agree and support @Enoch111 , @justbyfaith , @brakelite, @VictoryinJesus and @Jun2u and their posts on this subject.
Bless you,
APAK
I have read enough on this thread to know that Epi, you are a false teacher and selling a false doctrine regarding righteousness.
Your post #9 essentially says it all…………..there’s much more of course..
-------------------------below is your post intertwined with my comments in bold italics----------------------
“Let's say OUR righteousness...is yellow.
Is this a ‘good’ necessary, temporary righteousness, one that appeals to God before we are converted or not - it does have a purpose???
Let's say God's righteousness....is blue.
When these are mixed together....we get green. This mixture is iniquity...
We are called to purge ourselves from iniquity. IOW we are to not mix up God's righteousness with our own. When one does that...it destroys both righteousnesses.
So, what do we do or what is the purpose of our ‘good’ righteousness? Preparation for eventual salvation?
We are self-righteous when we were sinners and righteous in God through Christ when we are believers. They never mix. One is mutually exclusive of the other. It is one or the other. There are never two righteousnesses in a person. If a person believes otherwise, then they are not converted, IMO!
There is a third righteousness that is then self-righteousness if we do not do it for the right reasons and attitude. Where’s the self-righteousness color code? (rhetorical)
So then what we hear mainly these days for doctrines...is the mixture.
Not true at all!
“The OP is about what we do that is seen as right. That is our own righteousness. This isn't done to appear righteous. It is done because it is the right thing to do. Those who do things to APPEAR righteous.....are SELF-righteous. But those who are not looking at appearing righteous.....but just doing right...are just righteous.”
----------------------------
You are inferring that there is a way that an unbeliever can do and learn acceptable righteousness 101 as the first step before the righteousness at conversion of God himself or even imputed with God’s righteousness; that is not considered self- righteousness?
If somehow, as you again infer, we are not showy and doing the ‘right thing’ then God will accept it as a form of righteousness or even suggesting the possibility that he will credit us with righteousness, under the age of grace. Sounds like faithful works under the Law as Abraham and others where credited with righteousness. We are under grace today and not under the Law.
I think you also have deliberately added in and misapplied OT scripture that only applies to righteousness under grace, where some with true righteousness of God had zeal for him and faith in him, under the Law. Apples and Oranges.
No matter how you want to sugar coat how righteous works, under GRACE, and not performed in FAITH (as an unbeliever) is always sin and death. These are always self-righteous acts using their own carnal mind and their own will as they set the bar for what God will accept.
And because of your very flawed premise, the scripture you apply to it, it is also twisted. In the interest of the length of this writing I will gladly correct all the scripture you have tainted to suit your damming doctrine.
This is a beauty of yours and is very telling….
As you wrote in # 53: “If we can't understand (added in: ‘good’ not self) righteousness on the human level (added in: as an unbeliever only)...how will we ever understand what God's righteousness means (added in: as a believer only when they are off the human level…humor here)?”
The basic flaw in this statement is that it must only apply to an unbeliever who then knows he shall become, a believer in the future. If it applied to an eventual believer, then did the previous sinner know he was learning an acceptable righteousness before God?
And then it is an impossible statement as an unbeliever will never know he is learning a ‘good’ and justifiable form of righteousness in’ doing the right thing’ as somehow a prerequisite to understand God’s righteousness is perfect or better when they know they are going to be converted in the future.
Quite an incredible and unbelievable statement indeed…
Again, we cannot ever ‘do the right thing’ as any form of righteousness when not in Christ. We do not learn righteousness that can be useful later and that appeals to God under grace as a sinner. Please do not preach otherwise.
I generally agree and support @Enoch111 , @justbyfaith , @brakelite, @VictoryinJesus and @Jun2u and their posts on this subject.
Bless you,
APAK
You are showing more and more how little understanding you have of anything biblical. It amazes me really. You can try propping up this lack by making lists....but lists have never held any weight in the matters of God. Anyone familiar with biblical ideas would know that, of course.
You deny that is it possible to be righteous on a human level. Which is a lie.
I know how obstinate and obfuscating your ways are but I will try to teach you...and others who are having difficulty.
I only ask for your honesty... whatever you can HUMANLY scare up.
Let's compare righteousnesses....again.
Phinehas was a man who didn't like what he saw...people were dying in a plague...so he took it upon himself to kill a couple that he believed were causing the problem. He killed them with his own hand...with a javelin. He had blood on his hands....literally.
God imputed that act to him as righteousness and promised him an eternal priesthood for it. (Look it up)
Who made atonement for Israel???
God said Phinehas did. Phinehas did it by faith (his own) IN his own sense of righteousness. And God approved his action.
So then Phinehas, acting in his own sense and power of righteousness...made atonement for Israel. God simply recognized it as a good thing. (Like the Samaritan who didn't like seeing the wounded man lying at the side of the road..and DID something about it.) For the very few who aren't wagging their heads at this point....this is also the kind of faith Abraham had. God imputed Abraham's faith to himself. Abraham believed (not God) and God approved.
Now let's contrast this with Peter...who also took the lives of a man and woman.
Peter also operated by faith...but a higher faith. A faith that moves mountains (by the hand of God Himself)....but in this case killed 2 people. Peter spoke the words as God's voice of righteousness....but WHOSE righteousness...his own....or God's?
Not his own....but God's.
Peter spoke by the power of the Spirit IN and FROM God's righteousness. It was God's righteous anger that killed Anannias and Sapphira, No one is going to claim that Peter killed them by his own hand...or in his own strength. Or by his own will. Peter WAS the righteousness of God IN Christ to the world by doing what he did.
So then Phinehas demonstrated a human righteousness that God approved of. And Peter demonstrated the righteousness of God.
Can anyone see the difference? Can people recognize it when God is doing something? Christians can. A people that knows God can.
The silly argument that "no one is righteous" meaning that there is no such thing as a human righteousness...is akin to Jesus saying that "without Me you can do NOTHING". It is obvious that you and others don't understand this either. Does it mean that only Christians can do what humans can do? Do you think that humans are incapable of anything at all? Remember that Jesus said .....NOTHING. So the religious ones should think that means that non-believers are all as vegetables....being incapable of even lifting a finger. But they won't because they must cover up hypocrisy. No one likes being seen as a hypocrite. Where is the honesty?
So if I say...that Jesus was talking about eternal things....not physical things.... No one can DO anything eternal without Christ. No one can do anything impossible without Christ. Likewise no man can move mountains by their own faith....it is only the faith OF Jesus Christ that can move a mountain.....or God. Ask whatever in Jesus' name and God will do it. That is because it is by the faith OF Christ.
The same goes for the very indoctrinating error of thinking that no one is righteous...and religiously pointing a finger at others thinking....only I am righteous because I go to church or whatever. So the root of the error is in the self-righteous notion that denies that anyone can please God but them. But the wrath of God is coming on those who think this way.
So continue to deny the truth and judge me all you want. Do whatever feels right to you. But just know that God is indeed watching.
So we begin to see the root of the ignorance. it is rooted in religious pride.
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VictoryinJesus
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The only good and righteousness of Phinehas ...was the Righteousness of the Lord. It was the Lord’s righteousness seen in those passages. Numbers 25:7-13 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar(God has Helped), the son of Aaron the priest, saw it , he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; [8] And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. [9] And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand. [10] And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, [11] Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. [12] Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: [13] And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
Psalm 106:29-31
[29] Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them. [30] Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. [31] And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.
And Abraham by faith offered his Son Isaac. It is God's righteousness, who offered His only begotten Son. The only part "righteous" about Phinehas is the work of God. The only thing "righteous' about Abraham was faith in the work of God. "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." ---the "sweet savour" He smelled is His Son.
Please....Who executed judgment? Phinehas. This is tiresome...just read the text without the religious conditioning.
Epi you are a confused person that can use scripture effectively to suit your needs.
All you have going for you is to twist and misdirect…
Take for example how you have just spun my comment where you state that I said, on a human level, your words I might say, that no one can be righteous before God.
You know this is not what I said at all.
I said and now again in these words that under the Law, scripture provides a number of cases where persons are imputed righteousness. They had a zeal and faith in God. Even the disciples under the Law were credited although they were not in Christ. God’s gauged, not themselves, their ‘worth’ and imputed righteousness to them.
Where you err and cannot face is that this does not work under grace. You are either self-righteous in sin, or righteous in Christ, thus God. That is when we learn righteousness as we grow and walk. Under the law some walked with God indeed as if they possessed righteousness in Christ.
As you said, God can do what he pleases and of course he made some OT folks righteous, under his conditions I must point out and not on their own. He judges the hearts of men. A man never judges themselves as being righteousness, whether under the law or under grace.
And then of course in haste you continue to misrepresent more of my words…
Good luck with selling your doctrine. Most will not bite because they are believers and know they have righteousness, not in themselves or in themselves before they came to Christ.
Again, as on another subject, this time with extreme prejudice, I agree to disagree on this false doctrine being preached here.
Blessings to you and your family.
APAK
Apak.... You are just reading in your own understanding into my words....as you do the bible. I am speaking of things you have never considered....so you bring down what I am saying to what your own mind can come up with.
You say that I am saying a man can justify himself....when I said that only God decides who is righteous...ONLY He judges. So you are accusing me of what you are doing....by judging YOURSELF by your own judgment...based on your own beliefs. I am saying let God judge. And you say I am a false teacher. If you consider that you are taking the judgment away from God and soiling all judgment by taking this on yourself...then it is good to be seen as wrong to someone that does as you do.
Blessings to you and yours as well. :)
You say that I am saying a man can justify himself....when I said that only God decides who is righteous...ONLY He judges. So you are accusing me of what you are doing....by judging YOURSELF by your own judgment...based on your own beliefs. I am saying let God judge. And you say I am a false teacher. If you consider that you are taking the judgment away from God and soiling all judgment by taking this on yourself...then it is good to be seen as wrong to someone that does as you do.
Blessings to you and yours as well. :)
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We cannot even hold our atoms together without Christ (Colossians 1:17); because He is the Lord God and in Him all things consist. In Him we live and move and have our being; whether we believe or don't believe.
It is not that I deny that anyone can please God but me...but that anyone can please God apart from faith in Jesus Christ! Certainly people other than myself can exhibit such a faith, if they enter in through the door they can most certainly exhibit the righteousness of Christ (John 10:1-9).
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On another note, I think that where you may be coming from is that you are putting into other words the concept that bc the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, and that therefore it is training us up in righteousness so that when we are no longer under a schoolmaster we will live by the training of the schoolmaster; that this means that when we are being trained by the schoolmaster, we are operating in our own righteousness and learning righteousness. However, a major part of the schoolmaster's training is to show us that we are incapable of righteousness on our own; and therefore when we leave the schoolmaster's tutelage and begin to operate by faith, what we are doing is operating by faith in the understanding that we cannot muster up righteousness in our own strength (through the law). Since I equate the law's righteousness with what you call our own righteousness that we exhibit apart from faith in Christ: and it is clear from scripture that such a righteousness as that cannot save anyone.
Our righteousness has to do with what God thinks we are doing. He is the judge. So if you believe a person can be obedient to God...without even realizing it...then we are agreed! :)
Remember when Jesus said...if you didn't say "I see" then you would have no sin. But as long as a person doesn't humble themselves and admit they don't see...then what kind of salvation are we talking about?
He who is not against us is for us.
How that fits into your idea of "two righteousnesses" I do not know. But I do think you understand righteousness in a way that I do not. So be it. We can be Christian Siblings and see these points differently.
Like the Mobius strip there is actually only one side to any argument. God's side. It's just your location on the strip that determines your perspective.
Amen. Good to chat with you! :)
Jesus gave a parable about 2 sons. One said he would do what his father asked...but didn't. And the other said he wouldn't...but did.
This is the kind of thing you can expect with human beings.
