The Resurrection = the Commencement of the millennium

[Zao is life]

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. -- 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath.

And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. -- Revelation 14:9-11

And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world. -- Revelation 13:8

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up here. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. -- Revelation 11:7 & 11-12.

Note:

1. The two witnesses will not be martyred by the beast that ascends from out of the abyss before it ascends from out of the abyss.

2. The martyred two witnesses cannot rise again from the dead before the return of Christ, because at the time of the return of Christ, the dead in Christ will rise first.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they were alive in their bodies [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is the first resurrection of the body [anástasis]. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. -- Revelation 20:4-5

The Greek word anástasis always refers to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament, without exception.​

 

[Zao is life]

I'm Premillennial, but I do see the 2 Witnesses rising from the dead before the Return of Christ. There have been resurrections from the dead in history that were obviously not part of the "1st Resurrection," which is to be a resurrection to immortality. Clearly, Lazarus is an example of a resurrection that did not lead to immortality, and was not part of the "1st Resurrection."

Other than this, I agree with the notion that the martyrs of the Beast rise from the dead *at* the 2nd Coming. And I think that the 2 Witnesses rise from the dead and ascend to heaven just before the mobilization to Armageddon, which could take months.

My blueprint is as follows. The Beast reigns for 3.5 years, persecuting the saints. At the end of this period, the 2 Witnesses are killed, and an unknown length of time commences leading to Armageddon.

The Beast rules without opposition for 1260 days, but after that, parts of the world apparently turn against him. The resulting conflict will be Armageddon, lasting perhaps an hour. That's when Christ will return, as I see it.

Well, the ten kings who will reign with the beast

"will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." Rev 17:

"And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." Rev 19:14 & 16

"And the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you." Zech 14:5b

So I understand the above scriptures as pointing to resurrected saints (including the two witnesses) as returning with Christ when He comes to destroy the beast, and I understand the prophecy to be pointing to the following things as (all) occurring during that 42-month period you mentioned:

"And it was given to it (the beast) to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." Rev 13:7

"And when (the two witnesses) complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them." Rev 11:7

The image of the beast will be doing this:

"And there was given to (the false prophet) to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might both speak, and might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." Rev 13:15

The scriptures that I quoted above actually also fit with your blueprint regarding the Beast reigning for 3.5 years, persecuting (and beheading) the saints, and the two witnesses being killed at the end of this period.

But I don't see in what has been given to us in the Revelation, parts of the world turning against the beast at the close of the 3.5 years, so that would be speculative, IMO, but more than that, I don't actually agree because only those who are sealed with the seal of God will not worship the beast and the words "who can make war against it/him?" seem to me to disagree with that sort of scenario.

I don't know how long the length of time is between the resurrection and Armageddon. I have a speculative duration of time that I bear in mind, but would rather not mention it to anyone because although based on something that is written, it's speculative.

I see the 1 hour during which Revelation 17 tells us that the ten kings will reign contemporaneously with the beast (who will continue for 42 months), as 42 months, and the 1 hour during which the harlot is destroyed by the ten kings, as the same duration and period of time, and the 1,260 days of the two witnesses' prophecy, as the same duration and period of time, and I see it as "the hour of trial" mentioned by Jesus. IMO the whole world is going to be put on trial to separate those who will worship the beast and its image, from those who will not.​

 

[IndianaRob]

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. -- 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath.

And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. -- Revelation 14:9-11

And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world. -- Revelation 13:8

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up here. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. -- Revelation 11:7 & 11-12.

Note:

1. The two witnesses will not be martyred by the beast that ascends from out of the abyss before it ascends from out of the abyss.

2. The martyred two witnesses cannot rise again from the dead before the return of Christ, because at the time of the return of Christ, the dead in Christ will rise first.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they were alive in their bodies [záō] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is the first resurrection of the body [anástasis]. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. -- Revelation 20:4-5

The Greek word anástasis always refers to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament, without exception.​

In your opinion what is the “it” in this verse?

Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 

[Zao is life]

In your opinion what is the “it” in this verse?

Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

I'd first like to know what in your opinion the "it" is in the above verse before I answer, because if your question relates to the OP, at this point it's rather vague as to how it relates.

 

[IndianaRob]

I'd first like to know what in your opinion the "it" is in the above verse before I answer, because if your question relates to the OP, at this point it's rather vague as to how it relates.

If I’m not mistaken, you said in the original post that all occurrences of the Greek word for resurrection was always pointing to a bodily resurrection.

Without a doubt the “it” in that verse is the soul.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, the ten kings who will reign with the beast

"will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." Rev 17:

"And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." Rev 19:14 & 16

"And the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you." Zech 14:5b

So I understand the above scriptures as pointing to resurrected saints (including the two witnesses) as returning with Christ when He comes to destroy the beast, and I understand the prophecy to be pointing to the following things as (all) occurring during that 42-month period you mentioned:

"And it was given to it (the beast) to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." Rev 13:7

"And when (the two witnesses) complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them." Rev 11:7

The image of the beast will be doing this:

"And there was given to (the false prophet) to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might both speak, and might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." Rev 13:15

The scriptures that I quoted above actually also fit with your blueprint regarding the Beast reigning for 3.5 years, persecuting (and beheading) the saints, and the two witnesses being killed at the end of this period.​

Yes, that's how I saw it also.

But I don't see in what has been given to us in the Revelation, parts of the world turning against the beast at the close of the 3.5 years, so that would be speculative, IMO, but more than that, I don't actually agree because only those who are sealed with the seal of God will not worship the beast and the words "who can make war against it/him?" seem to me to disagree with that sort of scenario.​

I know what you mean, and I agree that I'm speculating--on issues like this I remain open. So my speculation is as follows: those who are "sealed"--not just the 144,000, but all Christians at that time (assuming you're postrib) will be relatively few in number. "Will the Son of Man find Faith on the earth?"

But there will be many on earth who then cannot hear the Gospel, due to Antichristian opposition. These will enter into the Millennial Age when Christ returns.

I simply theorize that there will be those who oppose Antichrist from other nations based on the fact....
1) The Battle of Armageddon is a "battle," which involves more than one empire.
2) Antichrist reigns for only 1260 days, meaning that after that time Christ has not come back yet and he has lost his global control. "You do not know the day or the hour of his coming." Christ cannot come on the 1260th day! The 2 Witnesses lie in the street dead for 3.5 days *after* the 1260 days!
3) Antichrist's Empire only consists of 10 nations. Many other nations would not be controlled by him after 1260 days, which is the assumed length of his "superpower" status.

So yes, this is all speculative.

I don't know how long the length of time is between the resurrection and Armageddon. I have a speculative duration of time that I bear in mind, but would rather not mention it to anyone because although based on something that is written, it's speculative.​

Yes, that would make you Midtrib or Prewrath, which is okay by me. I am, however, strictly Postrib. But I do think between the end of Antichrist's "superpower" status and Armageddon will be at least months, accounting for a mobilization of Asian armies to Armageddon in Israel.

I see the 1 hour during which Revelation 17 tells us that the ten kings will reign contemporaneously with the beast (who will continue for 42 months), as 42 months, and the 1 hour during which the harlot is destroyed by the ten kings, as the same duration and period of time, and the 1,260 days of the two witnesses' prophecy, as the same duration and period of time, and I see it as "the hour of trial" mentioned by Jesus. IMO the whole world is going to be put on trial to separate those who will worship the beast and its image, from those who will not.​

I'm not sure if this "one hour" is metaphorical or literal. It may be a metaphor for "a short duration." The Apostle John uses the same term, the "last hour," as a metaphor for the entire NT age, because it is the closing history on Israel's apparent failure.

Difficult!!! ;)

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, that's how I saw it also.

I know what you mean, and I agree that I'm speculating--on issues like this I remain open. So my speculation is as follows: those who are "sealed"--not just the 144,000, but all Christians at that time (assuming you're postrib) will be relatively few in number. "Will the Son of Man find Faith on the earth?"

But there will be many on earth who then cannot hear the Gospel, due to Antichristian opposition. These will enter into the Millennial Age when Christ returns.

I simply theorize that there will be those who oppose Antichrist from other nations based on the fact....
1) The Battle of Armageddon is a "battle," which involves more than one empire.
2) Antichrist reigns for only 1260 days, meaning that after that time Christ has not come back yet and he has lost his global control. "You do not know the day or the hour of his coming." Christ cannot come on the 1260th day! The 2 Witnesses lie in the street dead for 3.5 days *after* the 1260 days!
3) Antichrist's Empire only consists of 10 nations. Many other nations would not be controlled by him after 1260 days, which is the assumed length of his "superpower" status.

So yes, this is all speculative.

Yes, that would make you Midtrib or Prewrath, which is okay by me. I am, however, strictly Postrib. But I do think between the end of Antichrist's "superpower" status and Armageddon will be at least months, accounting for a mobilization of Asian armies to Armageddon in Israel.

I'm not sure if this "one hour" is metaphorical or literal. It may be a metaphor for "a short duration." The Apostle John uses the same term, the "last hour," as a metaphor for the entire NT age, because it is the closing history on Israel's apparent failure.

Difficult!!! ;)

I'm post-trib. I do not believe that "the tribulation" is referring to the wrath of God that will come upon the world.

Because of whose tribulation is being spoken about in each verse of the New Testament that talks about tribulation (see below), I believe "the tribulation" that scripture is talking about is always referring to the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the people and authorities of this world who are against the gospel (antichrists), and I believe "the great tribulation" is referring to the most intense period of that tribulation that the saints have ever known, or will ever know again (see below).

I believe it will be taking place during the final 42 months (the reign of the beast), and it seems to be centered around Judea.

I believe the saints will be resurrected at the close of the 42 months and those who are still alive and have escaped martyrdom will be raptured (caught up).

So I do not associate the judgment of God coming upon the world with "the tribulation" or any "great tribulation" that the New Testament mentions - because God's judgment coming upon the world is God's wrath that follows "the (great) tribulation" - which tribulation is the experience of the saints at the hand of the beast.

I see this as occurring when Christ appears in the clouds to gather His elect at the close of the 42 months:

Revelation 6​

14 And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?

I see the beast and his armies being judged in the battle of Armageddon which immediately follows the above - the saints returning with Christ when He comes in judgment of the beast.

EVERY MENTION OF PERSECUTION, TRIBULATION, & GREAT TRIBULATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

1. PERSECUTION:

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

2. TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

3. GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

1. Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20);
2. Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15:

"After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes."

3. Revelation 2:21:

"Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

* Luke 21:23 uses the word wrath [orgḗ] to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

 

[Zao is life]

In your opinion what is the “it” in this verse?

Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

I'd first like to know what in your opinion the "it" is in the above verse before I answer, because if your question relates to the OP, at this point it's rather vague as to how it relates.

If I’m not mistaken, you said in the original post that all occurrences of the Greek word for resurrection was always pointing to a bodily resurrection.

Without a doubt the “it” in that verse is the soul.

I thought you were about to express a false doctrine, that's why I asked.

Without a doubt you are mistaken.

And you will remain partially blinded by that false belief (because many believers in Christ are blinded in part by believing false doctrines - such as the above false doctrine you have just expressed).

Paul is talking about the resurrection of the body only and the "resurrection" of nothing else from 1 Corinthians 15:12 through to 1 Corinthians 15:57.

John 6:39-40, 44
"And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

1 Corinthians 15:35-36
"But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come? Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies."

1 Corinthians 15:44:
"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."

The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).

The Greek word soma is referring always and only to the human body. Paul is talking about the natural, mortal (given to corruption/decay) human body (soma) being resurrected a spiritual (immortal, incorruptible (not given to decay), body (soma).

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
"For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive [záō] and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.

And the dead [νεκρός nekrós] in Christ shall rise [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] first [πρῶτον prōton]. Then we who are alive [záō] and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

Paul links the resurrection of the dead in Christ to the return of Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; and explains how the dead will be raised in 1 Corinthians 15:35-57; and explains what the resurrection of the dead is in 1 Corinthians 15:4-8 & 1 Corinthians 15:12-26.

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Paul makes it abundantly clear that the resurrection of the dead is victory over death.

In Romans 8:23-25 Paul tells us that we do not yet see the resurrection of the dead, but we wait for it with patience, groaning within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body; and in 2 Timothy 2:16-18 Paul speaks about two men teaching the false doctrine that the resurrection is passed, overthrowing the faith of some.

The resurrection of the body is an integral part of the gospel.

I won't debate this with you any more after this post if you choose to hold onto the false doctrine you expressed in your post above, because it is pointless for me to do so in that case. I don't have time to waste on debating with someone adhering to that sort of false doctrine, I'm afraid.

Here's a list of all the New Testament verses talking about the resurrection of the body - all quoted, for anyone who might be interested:​

Resurrection

All New Testament verses talking about resurrection and the resurrection are quoted below this article. M ankind was created to live on t...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm post-trib. I do not believe that "the tribulation" is referring to the wrath of God that will come upon the world.

Because of whose tribulation is being spoken about in each verse of the New Testament that talks about tribulation (see below), I believe "the tribulation" that scripture is talking about is always referring to the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the people and authorities of this world who are against the gospel (antichrists), and I believe "the great tribulation" is referring to the most intense period of that tribulation that the saints have ever known, or will ever know again (see below).

I believe it will be taking place during the final 42 months (the reign of the beast), and it seems to be centered around Judea.

I believe the saints will be resurrected at the close of the 42 months and those who are still alive and have escaped martyrdom will be raptured (caught up).

So I do not associate the judgment of God coming upon the world with "the tribulation" or any "great tribulation" that the New Testament mentions - because God's judgment coming upon the world is God's wrath that follows "the (great) tribulation" - which tribulation is the experience of the saints at the hand of the beast.

I see this as occurring when Christ appears in the clouds to gather His elect at the close of the 42 months:

Revelation 6​

14 And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?

I see the beast and his armies being judged in the battle of Armageddon which immediately follows the above - the saints returning with Christ when He comes in judgment of the beast.

EVERY MENTION OF PERSECUTION, TRIBULATION, & GREAT TRIBULATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

1. PERSECUTION:

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

2. TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

3. GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

1. Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20);
2. Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15:

"After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes."

3. Revelation 2:21:

"Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

* Luke 21:23 uses the word wrath [orgḗ] to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

You appear to have the relevant Scriptures. And I agree with your Postrib position. I also agree that Wrath follows Tribulation because in my view, Wrath, ultimately, is God's sending people eternally into Outer Darkness.

But my view of the Great Tribulation does not involve Christians, but rather, is focused, as Jesus said, upon Israel in the NT era, when the majority of Israel continues in unbelief. It is called a *Great* Tribulation not because it is the worst conflict in history, in terms, of sheer terror, but only because of the length of time for this punishment upon the Jewish People.

Who can compare the sheer terror of an endtimes conflict with the sheer terror of the Holocaust, or even with the sheer terror of being burned alive or crucified by the ancient Romans? Terror is terror!

So as Jesus said in Luke 21, the Great Tribulation is a long period of time in which Israel is cast away form her promises and her nation scattered across the earth. It is a time of unbelief before she is regathered into a nation of faith, as in ancient times.

Even though this is what Luke plainly says in ch. 21 almost nobody agrees with me. Astonishing to me! But I won't break fellowship over differences of opinion on matters that do not impact our Salvation. Take care!

Note: I must be quick to say that Christians do suffer in this time of "Great Tribulation" for the Jewish People. The early Christians in Israel suffered, along with their unbelieving brethren, the loss of their country. And they also suffered from unbelieving brethren who viewed them as heretics.

And this is true throughout the present age of world unbelief. Christians in many countries suffer from their countrymen who do not share their belief and consider them trouble-makers and sectarian. And so, the entire unbelieving world suffers a measure of tribulation, and causes Christians in the world persecution as those who are separate from the world and seemingly hostile to the world.

Nevertheless, the Tribulation itself is for unbelievers, while Christians only suffer as a result of the world's rejection of them. The Wrath of God rests upon unbelievers, and not believers.

Aside from this, the word "tribulation" can be applied flexibly, depending on context. Trouble, or "tribulation," is the fate of both believer and unbeliever in this present world. But the unbeliever merits tribulation as a punishment, whereas believers do not.

It's just that the "Great Tribulation" mentioned in the Olivet Discourse specifically refers to a "Great Tribulation" as a punishment upon Israel. And that's what I'm referring to.

 

[Zao is life]

You appear to have the relevant Scriptures. And I agree with your Postrib position. I also agree that Wrath follows Tribulation because in my view, Wrath, ultimately, is God's sending people eternally into Outer Darkness.

But my view of the Great Tribulation does not involve Christians, but rather, is focused, as Jesus said, upon Israel in the NT era, when the majority of Israel continues in unbelief. It is called a *Great* Tribulation not because it is the worst conflict in history, in terms, of sheer terror, but only because of the length of time for this punishment upon the Jewish People.

Who can compare the sheer terror of an endtimes conflict with the sheer terror of the Holocaust, or even with the sheer terror of being burned alive or crucified by the ancient Romans? Terror is terror!

So as Jesus said in Luke 21, the Great Tribulation is a long period of time in which Israel is cast away form her promises and her nation scattered across the earth. It is a time of unbelief before she is regathered into a nation of faith, as in ancient times.

Even though this is what Luke plainly says in ch. 21 almost nobody agrees with me. Astonishing to me! But I won't break fellowship over differences of opinion on matters that do not impact our Salvation. Take care!

Note: I must be quick to say that Christians do suffer in this time of "Great Tribulation" for the Jewish People. The early Christians in Israel suffered, along with their unbelieving brethren, the loss of their country. And they also suffered from unbelieving brethren who viewed them as heretics.

And this is true throughout the present age of world unbelief. Christians in many countries suffer from their countrymen who do not share their belief and consider them trouble-makers and sectarian. And so, the entire unbelieving world suffers a measure of tribulation, and causes Christians in the world persecution as those who are separate from the world and seemingly hostile to the world.

Nevertheless, the Tribulation itself is for unbelievers, while Christians only suffer as a result of the world's rejection of them. The Wrath of God rests upon unbelievers, and not believers.

Aside from this, the word "tribulation" can be applied flexibly, depending on context. Trouble, or "tribulation," is the fate of both believer and unbeliever in this present world. But the unbeliever merits tribulation as a punishment, whereas believers do not.

It's just that the "Great Tribulation" mentioned in the Olivet Discourse specifically refers to a "Great Tribulation" as a punishment upon Israel. And that's what I'm referring to.

Well, the last days scenario is pieced together variously by various individuals, and if each individual believer is a circle, some Christians fall into overlapping circles with the way they piece things together (as is obvious by what we agree and disagree on). And when it comes to eschatology, there are two Christians and three opinions (which is I believe what Rabbis say about one another but it's just as apt among the saints).

I believe Luke is talking about the effect the events have on unbelieving Jews in Luke 21:23 and what will come upon them, but Matthew is talking about the effect the events have on believers.

I take Matthew 24:9-31 (and beyond those verses) as one passage based on Jesus' words in Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 24:9 so I believe it's the same tribulation mentioned in verses 21-22.

So that's where our circles do not overlap.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, the last days scenario is pieced together variously by various individuals, and if each individual believer is a circle, some Christians fall into overlapping circles with the way they piece things together (as is obvious by what we agree and disagree on). And when it comes to eschatology, there are two Christians and three opinions (which is I believe what Rabbis say about one another but it's just as apt among the saints).

I believe Luke is talking about the effect the events have on unbelieving Jews in Luke 21:23 and what will come upon them, but Matthew is talking about the effect the events have on believers.

I take Matthew 24:9-31 (and beyond those verses) as one passage based on Jesus' words in Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 24:9 so I believe it's the same tribulation mentioned in verses 21-22.

So that's where our circles do not overlap.

Right, and it's okay we disagree. I'm stating my opinion not to be disagreeable, but hopefully, to help (if I'm correct--if I'm not correct I hope my thoughts will just go away).

I see all versions of the Olivet Discourse, Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17/21 as being the same--only stated using different words. The words of Jesus were the same, but the Gospel authors had the privilege of stating things as best they could communicate them using equivalent language.

The "great tribulation/great distress" is in all 3 versions. They all indicate this is a punishment for unbelieving Jews, in my opinion. And in all 3 versions, believing Jews suffer persecution, which is part of the reason unbelieving Jews suffer tribulation!

But you will have to figure out your own position because it is your conscience you have to live with. It is not, however, always a matter of conscience, but rather, a period of study to determine what is meant to the best of our ability to discern it.

As in OT Prophecy, the Jewish People are punished for their disobedience. And a great example of this was the fall of Israel into the Babylonian Captivity.

I believe the Olivet Discourse is describing the same kind of thing, that as Israel generally rejects Jesus as Messiah they will suffer God's Wrath and fall into a long age of Dispersion. And this will happen not just because they reject Jesus as Messiah but also because they abuse Jesus' People, the Christians.

This is why the Roman Judgment was predicted as coming in 70 AD, because Jesus was hearkening back to Dan 9 where it was said that a People (Army) of a Ruler to Come (Roman leadership) will destroy "the city and the sanctuary" (Jerusalem and the Temple). Jesus recognized that Israel would reject him, have him killed, and persecute his followers.

And for these sins Israel would be cast into affliction for a long period of "great tribulation," which is precisely what the Jews have suffered over the last 2000 years. It even has a name--the Jewish Diaspora.

This great judgment, to erupt in Jesus' time, was called "the Abomination of Desolation." That is what Dan 9 called it, and that is what Jesus called it.

It would begin in Jesus' own generation, following his death, but would lead to an entire age of apparent Jewish abandonment by God. Ultimately, I believe it is taught that Israel will be restored, after the Jewish People are judged and cleansed through the fires of correction.

 

[Zao is life]

Right, and it's okay we disagree. I'm stating my opinion not to be disagreeable, but hopefully, to help (if I'm correct--if I'm not correct I hope my thoughts will just go away).

I see all versions of the Olivet Discourse, Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17/21 as being the same--only stated using different words. The words of Jesus were the same, but the Gospel authors had to privilege of stating things as best they could communicate them using equivalent language.

The "great tribulation/great distress" is in all 3 versions. They all indicate this is a punishment for unbelieving Jews, in my opinion. And in all 3 versions, believing Jews suffer persecution, which is part of the reason unbelieving Jews suffer tribulation!

But you will have to figure out your own position because it is your conscience you have to live with. It is not, however, always a matter of conscience, but rather, a period of study to determine what is meant to the best of our ability to discern it.

As in OT Prophecy, the Jewish People are punished for their disobedience. And a great example of this was the fall of Israel into the Babylonian Captivity.

I believe the Olivet Discourse is describing the same kind of thing, that as Israel generally rejects Jesus as Messiah they will suffer God's Wrath and fall into a long age of Dispersion. And this will happen not just because they reject Jesus as Messiah but also because they abuse Jesus' People, the Christians.

This is why the Roman Judgment was predicted as coming in 70 AD, because Jesus was hearkening back to Dan 9 where it was said that a People (Army) of a Ruler to Come (Roman leadership) will destroy "the city and the sanctuary" (Jerusalem and the Temple). Jesus recognized that Israel would reject him, have him killed, and persecute his followers. And for these sins Israel would be cast into affliction for a long period of "great tribulation," which is precisely what the Jews have suffered over the last 2000 years. It even has a name--the Jewish Diaspora.

This great judgment, to erupt in Jesus' time, was called "the Abomination of Desolation." That is what Dan 9 called it, and that is what Jesus called it. It would begin in Jesus' own generation, but would lead to an entire age of Jewish abandonment by God (apparently). Ultimately, I believe it is taught that Israel will be restored, after Jews are judged and cleansed through the fires of correction.

I agree with the reasons you give as to why the Jews have suffered since 70 AD, but the 3 gospels are more than 3 eye witness accounts of what Jesus said that day on the Mount of Olives, and Luke's gospel has Jesus saying things about the end of the age and time of His return while on His way to Jerusalem, that Matthew's gospel has Him saying in the temple in Jerusalem and on the Mount of Olives.

Luke collected information from who knows how many eyewitnesses.

My brother and I had a discussion one day when we were in our thirties about an incident that occurred when we were small children that we both saw because we were together when it happened.

My brother recalled it happening near our cousins' house. I recalled it happening near our house. I remembered us running home and calling our parents to come and look, and when I mentioned that, my brother remembered and said, "I think you're right, it must have been near our house then". He remembered details that I did not remember, and some details that we both remembered we remembered differently, while other details we both remembered the same.

And we were only two eyewitnesses. Matthew was an eyewitness, Mark wrote for Peter (a different eyewitness) and Luke used the details given him from who knows how many eyewitnesses.

In Luke's case he mentions Jesus talking about the wrath that was to come upon Jerusalem and how that would affect the inhabitants of the land (Luke 21:20-24) and writes that Jesus spoke about the persecution His disciples would face before the birth-pain signs that all three authors mention, whereas Matthew writes that Jesus spoke about a time of tribulation that His disciples would experience after the birth-pain signs.

Personally I believe it's a long shot to say that Luke and Matthew and Mark were all writing about the same things describing the same great distress or great tribulation affecting the same people.

Because of the fact that it's all different eyewitnesses giving different accounts, I don't believe we should interpret each one as though it's a commentary of the other two, which is basically the way I believe your interpretation of the passages treats the three accounts.

I think we should interpret Matthew in terms of what Matthew wrote (and in the context of what Matthew wrote), and likewise with Mark and Luke.

Just like us, IMO the three gospels are like three circles and all three overlap quite a bit, but there are details that each relates that the other two do not relate. What Matthew wrote about the tribulation of the saints at a time when the gospel has been preached in all the world after the birth-pain signs,, the saints being killed and hated of all nations, is not the same as what Luke wrote about the wrath of God coming upon the land in Luke 21:23, and the persecution of the disciples before the birth-pain signs.

Today Israel and the Jews are hated of all nations and they keep rightly warning the West that the West are next on their bucket-list of places to destroy, especially Christians. The only people a certain group of "ists" hate more than Christians is those Jews who do not believe in Christ - at the moment. I believe our destiny is tied up with the destiny of the Jews and their state. I don't know "why" it is so, but it seems that just as it was so for 1st century saints, so it is today again.​

 

[Randy Kluth]

The 3 accounts of the Olivet Discourse were not, in my opinion, exploring different territories, but were actual representations of the same Discourse made by Jesus. Why there were 3 accounts given is simply to confirm the testimony of what happened by different witnesses. 3 Witnesses were considered sufficient to confirm an episode.

I've done the comparison between the 3 accounts, and they all say the same things, as I see it. Having 3 divergent witnesses just confuses things, and cannot possibly confirm anything.

Use of a synonym does not represent a diversion from the original blueprint--it is the author's own artistic license, to frame the same event in his own language. These are not "opinions" of what happened. They are not different subjects, but only a single Discourse being presented to different audiences.

They are a record of an important religious event, critically important to have represented properly and precisely. They are not anecdotal accounts, lacking knowledge in the subject or far removed from the source material.

As such, a single Discourse can be represented as only a single message, and not split up into different messages, versions, opinions, or subjects. One cannot begin with a single subject and digress into different subjects, if the Discourse is to be properly presented.

Can one imagine The Gettysburg Address being represented from either the Blue Version or the Grey Version? No, it was a Union document, and can only be presented from Lincoln's viewpoint! :)

In the same way, the Olivet Discourse was Jesus' Discourse and can only be represented from his point of view--not several different views by different people who have different opinions or interests in related subjects.

The differences in the versions are negligible, in my opinion. The only reason for separating the single Discourse into different versions would be to fit in variant interpretations. And I don't think that's responsible or reasonable. We just have to figure out what the original version was, and explain each account in light of that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I agree with the reasons you give as to why the Jews have suffered since 70 AD, but the 3 gospels are more than 3 eye witness accounts of what Jesus said that day on the Mount of Olives, and Luke's gospel has Jesus saying things about the end of the age and time of His return while on His way to Jerusalem, that Matthew's gospel has Him saying in the temple in Jerusalem and on the Mount of Olives.

Luke collected information from who knows how many eyewitnesses.

My brother and I had a discussion one day when we were in our thirties about an incident that occurred when we were small children that we both saw because we were together when it happened.

My brother recalled it happening near our cousins' house. I recalled it happening near our house. I remembered us running home and calling our parents to come and look, and when I mentioned that, my brother remembered and said, "I think you're right, it must have been near our house then". He remembered details that I did not remember, and some details that we both remembered we remembered differently, while other details we both remembered the same.

And we were only two eyewitnesses. Matthew was an eyewitness, Mark wrote for Peter (a different eyewitness) and Luke used the details given him from who knows how many eyewitnesses.

In Luke's case he mentions Jesus talking about the wrath that was to come upon Jerusalem and how that would affect the inhabitants of the land (Luke 21:20-24) and writes that Jesus spoke about the persecution His disciples would face before the birth-pain signs that all three authors mention, whereas Matthew writes that Jesus spoke about a time of tribulation that His disciples would experience after the birth-pain signs.

Personally I believe it's a long shot to say that Luke and Matthew and Mark were all writing about the same things describing the same great distress or great tribulation affecting the same people.

Because of the fact that it's all different eyewitnesses giving different accounts, I don't believe we should interpret each one as though it's a commentary of the other two, which is basically the way I believe your interpretation of the passages treats the three accounts.

I think we should interpret Matthew in terms of what Matthew wrote (and in the context of what Matthew wrote), and likewise with Mark and Luke.

Just like us, IMO the three gospels are like three circles and all three overlap quite a bit, but there are details that each relates that the other two do not relate. What Matthew wrote about the tribulation of the saints at a time when the gospel has been preached in all the world after the birth-pain signs,, the saints being killed and hated of all nations, is not the same as what Luke wrote about the wrath of God coming upon the land in Luke 21:23, and the persecution of the disciples before the birth-pain signs.

Today Israel and the Jews are hated of all nations and they keep rightly warning the West that the West are next on their bucket-list of places to destroy, especially Christians. The only people a certain group of "ists" hate more than Christians is those Jews who do not believe in Christ - at the moment. I believe our destiny is tied up with the destiny of the Jews and their state. I don't know "why" it is so, but it seems that just as it was so for 1st century saints, so it is today again.​

Some good points here, but I'll include my main issue in post #13, as something I wish to share with everyone.

 

[Timtofly]

The differences in the versions are negligible, in my opinion. The only reason for separating the single Discourse into different versions would be to fit in variant interpretations. And I don't think that's responsible or reasonable. We just have to figure out what the original version was, and explain each account in light of that.

If people would just stop calling Luke 21 the Olivet Discourse, that would clear up some issues. There is nothing in that chapter to place what Jesus said, as being on the mount of Olives. Jesus was speaking in the Temple to all the Jews who were there that day. That was a public answer to a public question, to warn the general public. It was the Temple part of a broader discussion over 2 to 3 days, from Sunday after the Triumphant entry until Tuesday and the last supper. Luke 21:37

“And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.”

These were the last 3 days before the Cross.

As for eyewitnesses accounts, this was a three day event. People remembered the main points which may have been repeated, or they only remembered what needed to be placed in Scripture, and Jesus covered more than these points, but all we got was what we got. Remember this was the most traumatic week for the disciples, not just another week of parables, Jesus had given over the prior 3 years of ministry.

 

[Davidpt]

If people would just stop calling Luke 21 the Olivet Discourse, that would clear up some issues. There is nothing in that chapter to place what Jesus said, as being on the mount of Olives. Jesus was speaking in the Temple to all the Jews who were there that day. That was a public answer to a public question, to warn the general public. It was the Temple part of a broader discussion over 2 to 3 days, from Sunday after the Triumphant entry until Tuesday and the last supper. Luke 21:37

“And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.”

These were the last 3 days before the Cross.

As for eyewitnesses accounts, this was a three day event. People remembered the main points which may have been repeated, or they only remembered what needed to be placed in Scripture, and Jesus covered more than these points, but all we got was what we got. Remember this was the most traumatic week for the disciples, not just another week of parables, Jesus had given over the prior 3 years of ministry.

Let's see if that might be true which involves pinpointing when Jesus entered the temple on that particular day. But first let's go to the book of Matthew in order to pinpoint when Jesus entered the temple on that particular day. IOW, let's try and trace some of His steps on that particular day.

Matthew 21:18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?


From what I can deduce, verse 23 appears to be when He entered the temple that particular day.

Let's now go to the book of Luke.

Luke 20:1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,


This appears to be when Jesus entered the temple this particular day. Now compare the following.'

Matthew 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Luke 20:1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,
2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?
3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:
4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?
6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.
7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.
8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

It is plain silly beyond belief that what is recorded in Matthew 21:23-27 and Luke 20:1-8 took place on two different days. As if some of these ppl involved were so absent-minded that they forgot that they already asked Jesus these very same things previously when He was teaching in the temple on another day prior to this one. Come on now, let's at least use some common sense here. The day He entered the temple involving what is recorded in Matthew 24 is the same day He entered the temple involving Luke 21.

What some of you are not factoring in, some of what is recorded in Luke 21 is compressed, thus missing some vital details. The missing details can be found in Matthew 24.

For example.

Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?


When and where did they ask Him this? Simple. Just look in Matthew 24, it plainly tells us the when and where.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Compared with.

Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Verse 7 is compressed. It leaves out some of the details. Matthew 24:3 gives us the details missing in Luke 21:7.

Sometimes I have to wonder if some of you ever played connect the dots when you were growing up? And if you did, I then have to wonder if you were any good at it based on how some of you around here don't appear to be very good at connecting the dots when comparing Matthew 24 with Luke 21?

 

[WPM]

The Greek word anástasis always refers to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament, without exception.​

You obviously haven't researched this very well. This statement is not true. It is wrong. There are various clear passages that refute this. You should study this more thorough before misleading people.

Are we spiritually dead or alive before salvation?

The answer of course is “dead.” We are all “dead in sin” before conversion as a result of the Fall. Therefore, we all automatically inherit that fallen nature through our federal head Adam by our first birth.

In order to shift from this awful state of death to life we must first hear the quickening or life-giving voice of the Lord and then experience the joy of spiritual resurrection. By being raised from the grave of sin and debauchery we experience newness of life (or are born from above). It is the resurrection of the spirit into a state of communion with God that causes the new birth. When resurrected our spirits are brought from death to life, this causes a new birth in our being. A human being consists of body, soul and spirit. It is the spirit that is dead unto God before salvation that is (1) quickened (2) resurrected from its death that (3) begets life and therefore a new nature or the spiritual man.

Basically:

• The spiritual corpse must first be quickened by the supernatural voice of God (zōopoieō or suzōopoieō).
• This causes a spiritual resurrection (egeiro or anastasis)
• This then brings spiritual life to the sinner (zao).

Quickening

Salvation is not some mere religious decision, it is not the accomplishing of some set of religious ordinances or good deeds, it is a supernatural act. After all, without God’s help man is unable to please God.

The fact is, the only possible way that a spiritually dead man or a physically dead man can move from death to life is through responding to the quickening voice of God. This is how God awakens the dead. There is no other way.

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 explains:

“The first man Adam was made a living soul.”

“the last Adam was made a quickening [Gr. zōopoieō] spirit."

And continues, “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.”

Keeping in mind the awful separation that occurred when Adam spiritually died when he partook of the forbidden fruit in the Garden, and allowing for the fact that all mankind was represented in Adam in that Fall, we now see the great reconciliation that is realized between God and man through Christ in the act of salvation. The sinner is made spiritually alive and brought into mystical union with God through the person and work of Christ, by supernaturally receiving life and by being spiritually revitalized.

This text teaches us that our “natural” ‘soulish’ man came first; the “spiritual … heavenly” came second. This is talking about our old man and our new man. The old man is dead unto God and controlled by natural understanding and natural feelings. Our new man is our spiritual man who has been raised from spiritual death. He is God-conscience, and alive unto God. These two natures are in conflict with each other.

The Greek word interpreted "quickening" is zōopoieō meaning to produce alive, to cause to live, make alive, give life. Metaphorically, it describes seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing.

We are talking about regeneration here! We are looking at the translation of a man from death to life. This is indeed supernatural, and is instigated by the Lord. The phrase "a quickening spirit" is talking about the initiator of life Jesus Christ; a quickened spirit is the recipient of that life.

Jesus said in John 6:63, “It is the spirit that quickeneth [Gr. zōopoieō]; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”

Man’s natural body and soul remain alive (in all men saved and lost) until physical death. It is therefore the spirit of man that is dead towards God that is (1) quickened and then (2) resurrected from its grave that begets life and therefore a new nature or the spiritual man. The spiritual man is “created in righteousness and true holiness” (Ephesians 4:24) and hence alive unto God.

Colossians 2:10-14 says, “ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ‘ye are risen with him’ [Gr. sunegeirō] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised [Gr. egeiro] him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened [Gr. suzōopoieō] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

Before salvation we were dead, obviously not physically, but spiritually. But when Christ breathed spiritual life into us, we were "quickened" (or made alive spiritually) and "raised" from the grave of our sin.

The word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the Greek word suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806), which is derived from combining the words sun (Strong’s 4862) with zoopoíeo (Strong’s 2227), meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. Hence, we can see the deep meaning of this word in the aforementioned passage and the essential work that is perfected in the penitent sinner in regeneration.

This explicit passage describes the act of salvation as a resurrection feat. Moreover, the raising of the forgiven child of God in resurrection power in salvation is in turn carefully identified with, and connected to, Christ’s glorious resurrection. It confirms that our hearts “are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” in salvation, and likens this supernatural work to a death, burial and resurrection. This reading shows how the child of God is “buried with him,” “quickened together with him,” and finally “risen with him.”

Once a person gets saved they are made spiritually alive through spiritual resurrection. This involves a spiritual birth. As a result, they enter into eternal life and consequently never die.

 

[WPM]

The Greek word anástasis always refers to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament, without exception.​

Romans 4:17 says, speaking of that great father of the faith Abraham, “(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth [Gr. zōopoieō] the dead, and calleth those things which be not (unbelieving Gentiles) as though they were (the people of God).”

Again, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the original word zoopoieo meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. It is the same word used in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 3:1, only it is prefixed there by the Greek word sun in those passages. This passage is describing how God breathed spiritual life into the once darkened Gentile nations, and brought them into a personal relationship with the living God. Those within the nations that received God’s provision for sin and uncleanness were then immediately brought from a condition of spiritual death unto a state of spiritual life through the precious work of Christ at Calvary. This quickening of the Gentiles is therefore plainly not just a future hope but a joyous present reality.

Ephesians 2:1-6 also says, “you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ [Gr. suzōopoieō] with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath ‘raised us up together’ [Gr. suzōopoieō] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

The same two Greek words found in Colossians 2:10-14 are also used in this reading to describe the spiritual resurrection. Again, the word rendered “quickened” here in Ephesians 2 is the Greek word suzoopoieo, which indicates a uniting to Christ in mystical union by means of being spiritually revitalized and made alive. The Greek word sunegeiro carries the meaning of union with Christ through resurrection. It is also in the aorist active demonstrating that it relates to the present. All sane theologians know that is not therefore not talking about physical resurrection.

In the salvation, the nature of Christ is imputed into the believer thus raising him up from a spiritual grave into a real living communion with God. I John 3:14 succinctly explains, “We know that we have passed from death unto life.” How? This text makes it clear that the death that is conquered here in the-here-and-now is assuredly not physical but spiritual death. The sinner that believes (and is thus born again of the Spirit of God) has entered into the realization of the first resurrection in this life and will one day be physically raised at the second resurrection unto life.

 

[WPM]

The Greek word anástasis always refers to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament, without exception.​

The only way that we can transition from death to life (both spiritually and physically) is by way of resurrection. There is no other way! This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Two resurrections result for the believer from Christ’s one resurrection. Man needs both spiritually redeemed and physically redeemed. When one gets saved they are spiritually redeemed. But they are not physically redeemed until resurrection day. His “first resurrection” secured both resurrections for those who will put their faith in Christ.

Romans 6:3-6 says, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up [Gr. egeiro] from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection [Gr. anastasis]: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

There are two Greek words used in Romans 6:3-10 that are used to describe the resurrection of Christ, and that are significantly in turn purposely equated to the believer and the new birth experience; they are egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and anastasis (Strong’s 386). Such a correlation between these two diverse types of resurrection (physical and spiritual) is only secured through Christ’s sinless life, atoning death and glorious resurrection, enabling the believer to walk in resurrection power and “newness of life.” The believer here is therefore supernaturally transferred from a condition of death into one of life. This undoubtedly relates (1) to a spiritual state, and, (2), to the here in now. It cannot relate to the physical resurrection which is still future and which occurs at the second coming of Christ.

The first word egeiro (Strong’s 1453) is used many times throughout the New Testament to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. These references are found in Matthew 14:2, 16:21, 17:9, 23, 20:19, 26:32, 27:63, 64, 28:6, 7, Mark 14:28, 16:6, 14, Luke 1:69, 9:22, 24:6, 34, John 2:19, 20, 22, 21:14, Acts 3:15, 4:10, 5:30, 10:40, 13:30, 37, Romans 4:24, 25, 6:4, 9, 7:4, 8:11, 34, 10:9, 1 Corinthians 6:14, 15:4, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 5:15, Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Peter 1:21.

Similarly, the other Greek word anastasis (Strong’s 386), which is identified several times in Scripture with the new birth spiritual resurrection is also used several times to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. It is derived from the root word anistemi (Strong’s 450). These are outlined in Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:34, 16:9, Luke 18:33, 24:7, 26, John 20:9, Acts 2:24, 31, 32, 3:26, 4:2, 33, 10:41, 13:33, 34, 17:3, 18, 26:23, Romans 15:12, Philippians 3:10 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 1 Peter 1:3, 3:21.

The same two Greek words that are repeatedly employed to describe Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead are also used in Ephesians 5:14 to describe the new birth experience of the believer. The sinner being commanded: “Awake [Gr. egeiro] thou that sleepest, and arise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Ephesians 5:14).

The resurrection portrayed here is again not a physical resurrection, but, a spiritual resurrection in which the recipient (the sinner) receives the joy of salvation. Through this spiritual resurrection, the believer receives the “light” of God and is therefore spared the awful sentence of eternal wrath. The verb “arise” in this text specifically relates to salvation and is a metaphor describing the spiritual resurrection that Christians undergo when they are lifted from the grave of sin. It also demonstrates the blessing that follows this resurrection. The true child of God receives the blessed light of God’s dear Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 2:34 also records, “Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again [Gr. anastasis] (or resurrecting) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against.”

Matthew Henry explains in relation to this passage, “He (Jesus) is set for the rising again of many in Israel, that is, for the conversion of many to God that are dead and buried in sin, and for the consolation of many in God that are sunk and lost in sorrow and despair. Those whom he is set for the fall of may be the same with those whom he is set for the rising again of. He is set eis ptosin kai anastasin - for their fall, in order to their rising again; to humble and abase them, and bring them off from all confidence in themselves, that they may be exalted by relying on Christ; he wounds and then heals, Paul falls, and rises again”

The believer is raised from the grave of his sin and spiritual death at conversion, which of necessity must be a spiritual resurrection. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, “For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth [Gr. egeiro] the dead: Who delivered us (past tense) from so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense): in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us (future tense).”

This whole passage is concentrated upon the great eternal provision of spiritual deliverance. The word “raiseth” in this reading is a present active verb, therefore it is talking about a resurrection that is happening now, rather than the future physical resurrection. This is obviously speaking of spiritual resurrection, because it alone has been ongoing since Christ’s first (physical) resurrection. This will, of course, culminate with the general physical resurrection at His return.

The same word repeatedly applied to Christ’s physical resurrection in the New Testament – egeiro – is here again used spiritually to describe the spiritual resurrection of the believer from the reality of spiritual death. It shows a present realisation and victorious triumph over that state in this testimony of Paul. This reading does not at all indicate that the believer will not experience natural death, no, but rather, that he wouldn’t experience spiritual death. It positively outlines that through the spiritual (or first) resurrection the believer is rescued from entering into the awful realisation of the second death (eternal punishment).

 

[WPM]

The Greek word anástasis always refers to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament, without exception.​

Colossians 2:10-14 says, “ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ‘ye are risen with him’ [Gr. sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised [Gr. egeiro] him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened [Gr. suzoopoieo] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

This explicit passage describes the act of salvation as a resurrection feat. Moreover, the raising of the forgiven child of God in resurrection power in salvation is in turn carefully identified with, and connected to, Christ’s glorious resurrection. It confirms that our hearts “are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” in salvation, and likens this supernatural work to a death, burial and resurrection. This reading shows how the child of God is “buried with him,” “quickened together with him,” and finally “risen with him.”

The wording relating to this spiritual resurrection – “ye are risen with him” – is translated from the Greek word sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891), which is derived from the coupling of two other Greek words sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness, and egeiro (Strong’s 1453), which means to awaken or resurrect from the dead. This word egeiro is constantly used in the New Testament in reference to Christ’s physical resurrection.

Also, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the Greek word suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806), which is derived from combining the words sun (Strong’s 4862) with zoopoíeo (Strong’s 2227), meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. Hence, we can see the deep meaning of this word in the aforementioned passage and the essential work that is perfected in the penitent sinner in regeneration.

Many new birth passages in Scripture are surrounded in resurrection terminology. Notwithstanding, they are not in any way referring to a physical resurrection, although, often, using the same type of language that accompanies literal ones. These references repeatedly describe spiritually dead men being spiritually made alive by being first spiritually quickened and then spiritually resurrected from the grave of their sin. This reading plainly outlines how the penitent sinner is raised with the exact same supernatural power that raised Christ at His resurrection, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Colossians 3:1-4 goes on to add, “If ‘ye then be risen with’ [Gr. sunegeiro] Christ (speaking in the present tense about those who have experienced spiritual resurrection in Christ), seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear (speaking of the second coming), then shall ye also appear with him in glory (referring to the physical resurrection which is future tense).”

There are two distinct resurrections outlined in this reading, the first being spiritual and the second being physical. The initial resurrection of necessity sees a spiritual change, whereas, the second resurrection of necessity requires a physical change. Interestingly, the Greek word sunegeiro is again used here to describe the spiritual resurrection of the penitent sinner through union with Christ. No one could surely dismiss the current reality of the resurrection outlined at the beginning of the above passage. Moreover, those that have experienced the aforementioned resurrection are then instructed to “seek” and “set their affection” upon “those things which are above” – spiritual actions that are to be performed in this scene of time. The key to experiencing the reality of this current resurrected life is found in the concluding part of the reading that our earthly life is “hid with Christ in God.”

Ephesians 2:1-6 also says, “you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ [Gr. suzoopoieo] with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath ‘raised us up together’ [Gr. sunegeiro] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

The same two Greek words found in Colossians 2:10-14 are also used in this reading to describe the spiritual resurrection. Again, the word rendered “quickened” here in Ephesians 2 is the Greek word suzoopoieo, which indicates a uniting to Christ in mystical union by means of being spiritually revitalized and made alive. The Greek word sunegeiro carries the meaning of union with Christ through resurrection. It is also in the aorist active demonstrating that it relates to the present. All sane theologians know that is not therefore not talking about physical resurrection.

Romans 4:17 says, speaking of that great father of the faith Abraham, “(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth [Gr. zoopoieo] the dead, and calleth those things which be not (unbelieving Gentiles) as though they were (the people of God).”

Again, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the original word zoopoieo meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. It is the same word used in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 3:1, only it is prefixed there by the Greek word sun in those passages. This passage is describing how God breathed spiritual life into the once darkened Gentile nations, and brought them into a personal relationship with the living God. Those within the nations that received God’s provision for sin and uncleanness were then immediately brought from a condition of spiritual death unto a state of spiritual life through the precious work of Christ at Calvary. This quickening of the Gentiles is therefore plainly not just a future hope but a joyous present reality.

In the new birth, the nature of Christ is imputed into the believer thus raising him up from a spiritual grave into a real living communion with God. I John 3:14 succinctly explains, “We know that we have passed from death unto life.” How? This text makes it clear that the death that is conquered here in the-here-and-now is assuredly not physical but spiritual death. The sinner that believes (and is thus born again of the Spirit of God) has entered into the realisation of the first resurrection in this life and will one day be physically raised at the second resurrection unto life.

Conclusion

We have seen how the Greek word anastasis (Strongs 386), used in Revelation 20 to describe the first resurrection, is related to the new birth in several New Testament passages. We have seen how its root meaning anistemi (Strongs 450) is also related to the new birth experience. We have seen how other similar resurrection words like egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and zoopoíeo (Strong’s 2227) are also identified with the first spiritual resurrection.