the real danger of Amillism

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, an IBM guy who was solid and yet willing to tackle a subject that was very unpopular. The entire Prophecy section of Christian bookstores were, at the time, devoted to 666, the Antichrist, and the Pretrib Rapture. Postrib was rarely addressed.

I was raised in an Amill, Postrib denomination and never knew any different until my teenaged years when I adopted my Christian friends' beliefs, which was Premil, Pretrib. I only changed to Premil, Postrib when I began a Bible memorization undertaking and memorized 2 Thessalonians, which I discovered to be decidedly Postribulational!

Yes, it is. Some pre-tribs resort to trying to claim that the departure (falling away, rebellion) that Paul references in 2 Thess 2 is talking about the departure of the church instead of a departure from the faith, but that obviously can't be taken seriously. A falling away from the faith fits the context of the rest of what Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2. Also, he talks about the departure as being something that has to take place before the rapture, so how can the rapture take place before the rapture? Such a silly and desperate attempt to deny the obvious.

I've tried to explain that I don't believe Amill as a rule engages in Antii-Semitism.

You have? I guess I missed it. That isn't the impression I've gotten from what you've been saying about this.

My point is that from my pov, the theology is wrong and encourages that kind of thinking from the spiritually weak.

I disagree. Amil promotes the unity of Jew and Gentile believers as one body and promotes the lack of distinction (spiritually) between them, so how can that promote anti-Semitism to anyone? It does not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks for the explanation! Some people seem to have been promoting the idea that the physical Kingdom is not coming at all based on this verse! I'm glad you don't feel that way.

I had already told you that more than once before. I find that most people here either do not read what others are saying carefully, or they quickly forget what others have said. I'm not sure why that is.

Like you I do believe there is a form of the Kingdom presently active on earth, both temporal Christian kingdoms

Whoa, stop there. Christian kingdoms (plural)? No, I don't believe that. There is one Christian Kingdom with Jesus Christ as its king.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins

and the spiritual activity of the Kingdom

And here you rightly refer to it in the singular. You're kind of hard to follow sometimes.

bringing salvation to the righteous and judgment to the wicked. Amills are not always far removed from what I believe. The big difference is largely about speculating about the future, which should concern us less than where we're at today.

I would never suggest that today is less of a concern than the future. Jesus Himself said to not worry about tomorrow because today has enough trouble of its own.

With that said, let's think about this for a minute in terms of the future manifestation of the kingdom. To me, it makes far more sense that Jesus would rid the world of sin and death forever at His triumphant and glorious return. For what reason would He not do that? Why allow sin and death to go on for 1,000+ more years after that? To me, that takes away from how climactic and glorious His return will be.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is another reason I don't waste hours providing Scriptures for those who in reality have no interest at all in my quoting Bible verses. But at times I do wish to show other readers what a lie it is that I don't provide any Bible verses.

I most certainly do. Every time I mention the "Abrahamic Promises" it's already been backed up by multiple previous references to Gen 12 and 17. I need not repeatedly quote these passages just to prove wrong your claim that I back up nothing with Bible verses.

But I do want others to know the basis of my arguments in Scripture. Thanks for at least reading.

But, does your understanding of the fulfillment of those promises match up with what Paul writes in Galatians 3:16-29? I don't believe so. Not even close really. I can't figure out why you wouldn't want to use NT scripture to aid your understanding of OT scripture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not one word you posted speaks of a future National Salvation for Israel, not one word in my holy Bible speaks of your claims, perhaps your reading the Jews Rabbinical Talmud, because the only Jewish hope in my holy Bible is salvation in Jesus Christ, that Judaism rejects

Your claims are Zionist fantasy land Randy, found no place in scripture, no such thing as National Salvation for any country on earth "None"!

The Future will see a remnant Jew that will be saved and become the Church who is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed Romans 9:6-8

It seems you spend all your time denouncing claims other make without substantiating your own claims?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, it is. Some pre-tribs resort to trying to claim that the departure (falling away, rebellion) that Paul references in 2 Thess 2 is talking about the departure of the church instead of a departure from the faith, but that obviously can't be taken seriously. A falling away from the faith fits the context of the rest of what Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2. Also, he talks about the departure as being something that has to take place before the rapture, so how can the rapture take place before the rapture? Such a silly and desperate attempt to deny the obvious.

You have? I guess I missed it. That isn't the impression I've gotten from what you've been saying about this.

I disagree. Amil promotes the unity of Jew and Gentile believers as one body and promotes the lack of distinction (spiritually) between them, so how can that promote anti-Semitism to anyone? It does not.

Since I feel that Amill is bad doctrine, I think there are negative side effects. That doesn't mean I think Amills as Christians are bad Christians--I just think they hold to bad doctrine. And that doctrine can, I think, have negative effects.

Again, the belief that Israel will *never* be restored as a nation causes some people to justify that by trying to prove the Jews are incapable of that. To say that a group of people are incapable of repentance while at the same time preaching that other groups of people can repent is a form of discrimination, which in this case is, I believe, a form of Anti-Semitism.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I had already told you that more than once before. I find that most people here either do not read what others are saying carefully, or they quickly forget what others have said. I'm not sure why that is.

I can guess why that is in my case. I get bored just being in one place discussing one subject. So in the past year I've been on perhaps as many as 5 different Christian forums. Some of the same people are on more than one of them. It does get confusing, particularly when the same subject is discussed on different forums. Some people have similar names, and some of the same people have different user names.

In my case, I'm getting a little old, and I need to repeat things a number of times to get it settled. Sometimes I remember after the fact. But thanks for sharing your concern. You may have to repeat things several times with me.

As I said there are some people who use the verse that the Kingdom "doesn't come with observation" to claim the Kingdom is purely spiritual, and not physical at all. So I need to make that clear.

Whoa, stop there. Christian kingdoms (plural)? No, I don't believe that. There is one Christian Kingdom with Jesus Christ as its king.

I believe God set up a temporal kingdom in Israel that represented the Kingdom of God. Jesus said that Kingdom would be taken from them and given to another nation, which I believe to be the Roman State after it was Christianized.

Later, the Christian Kingdom broke up into a number of Christian States. I would consider each one, having its own kingdom, as each representing the Kingdom of God. That simple.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins

And here you rightly refer to it in the singular. You're kind of hard to follow sometimes.

That's because I'm an independent studier--always have been. I've had some institutional learning, and private Bible Studies. But I find the Bible Studies are always resistant to correction outside of the main teacher's domain and comfort zone. So I either avoid them, or don't feel welcome in them. My interest, however, is always in being submissive to those who have gone before, particularly those with good reputations. And I always want to be doctrinally orthodox, as much as is possible.

Yes, the eschatological, heavenly Kingdom is portrayed as singular. That's because God Himself is singular. But on earth, each nation may have its own political form, and present its own version of the Christian Kingdom.

With that said, let's think about this for a minute in terms of the future manifestation of the kingdom. To me, it makes far more sense that Jesus would rid the world of sin and death forever at His triumphant and glorious return. For what reason would He not do that? Why allow sin and death to go on for 1,000+ more years after that? To me, that takes away from how climactic and glorious His return will be.

It's a legitmate, reasonable question. What determines my life, however, is what is said--not in how much sense it makes. But before I accept something it must make some sort of sense.

It makes sense to me that Jesus is coming back to imprison Satan as a barrier to his completion of the Abrahamic promises. It makes sense that Satan is presently resisting that fulfillment because Christian nations continually fail to produce a lasting image of what a Christian nation should be. Israel continues to fail to bring its people into alignment with Christ.

So it makes sense to me that in order to complete these promises made to Abraham Satan must first be bound. So there's that.

But then there is the question of why God releases Satan once again at the end of this age of fulfillment? It may be another revisiting of the situation Job faced. Satan accused him of serving God because there he was incentivized by God's favor, and not by a true heart after God. It may be that at the end of the Millennium people must once again prove they are not just serving God for gain, but rather, out of love for the truth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But, does your understanding of the fulfillment of those promises match up with what Paul writes in Galatians 3:16-29? I don't believe so. Not even close really. I can't figure out why you wouldn't want to use NT scripture to aid your understanding of OT scripture.

I do back up the OT w/ NT Scripture! I do it all the time, though as I said, I tend to not want to endlessly repeat the same things. And I'm less likely to spend lots of time backing up my beliefs with quotations if I feel the person I'm speaking to is really not interested in discussion--just argumentation.

To say I don't quote Scripture is one thing, but to argue that Scripture is another. The point I was making is that I do back my beliefs up in Scripture.

I've studied this a very long time. And what I discovered, as I studied it, is that everything is based on the few promises God made to Abraham. God also doesn't endlessly repeat this, but on occasion makes it abundantly clear. What He's doing is fulfilling His promises to Abraham. It wasn't that Abraham himself was so important but that God used him to establish His blueprint for human history.

His blueprint began with Israel in the OT and expanded to include Christian nations in the NT. This is NT theology.

Rom 4.18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

 

[Randy Kluth]

All promises to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ the promised "Seed", your claim is false, there are no outstanding promises

You falsely believe and teach "Seeds" of many being "National Israel" False!

The Promised "seed singular" Jesus Christ,and all those that receive Jesus Christ are children of the promised seed "The Church"

The use of the word "seed" is a composite singular term. It presents Christ as a composite whole, inclusive of all the descendants of Abraham who are of Abraham's faith. If you think the promise was only made to Jesus, the seed of Abraham, and not to all of Abraham's descendants, the Hebrews in Israel, you're a very poor interpreter of this passage. The promise to Abraham clearly referred to the descendants of Abraham who would occupy the land of Canaan, namely Israel. Paul was just limited the application to Abraham's descendants to consist solely of those of faith, which later came to be fulfilled in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can guess why that is in my case. I get bored just being in one place discussing one subject. So in the past year I've been on perhaps as many as 5 different Christian forums.

You have time for that? I'm currently trying to keep up with 2 forums and find it to be a bit much.

Some of the same people are on more than one of them. It does get confusing, particularly when the same subject is discussed on different forums. Some people have similar names, and some of the same people have different user names.

In my case, I'm getting a little old, and I need to repeat things a number of times to get it settled. Sometimes I remember after the fact. But thanks for sharing your concern. You may have to repeat things several times with me.

Okay, if that's how it is then so be it. That's okay. As long as it's not a case of you not making the effort to actually read what I'm saying.

 

[Truth7t7]

The use of the word "seed" is a composite singular term. It presents Christ as a composite whole, inclusive of all the descendants of Abraham who are of Abraham's faith. If you think the promise was only made to Jesus, the seed of Abraham, and not to all of Abraham's descendants, the Hebrews in Israel, you're a very poor interpreter of this passage. The promise to Abraham clearly referred to the descendants of Abraham who would occupy the land of Canaan, namely Israel. Paul was just limited the application to Abraham's descendants to consist solely of those of faith, which later came to be fulfilled in Christ.

Randy you bend and twist to no avail, the promise made to Abraham was fulfilled in Jesus Christ "Seed Singular"

All promises to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ the promised "Seed", your claim is false, there are no outstanding promises

You falsely believe and teach "Seeds" of many being "National Israel" False!

The Promised "seed singular" Jesus Christ,and all those that receive Jesus Christ are children of the promised seed "The Church"

Your desires and dreams for a "National Salvation For Israel" has blinded your eyes to scriptural truth IMO

You can't post scripture to support your Zionist claims, because none exist

You ignore the biblical truth below, trying desperately to build a Zionist Kingdom on this earth where ethnic Jews rule with God's favor, a "Myth"

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:8KJV
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy you bend and twist to no avail, the promise made to Abraham was fulfilled in Jesus Christ "Seed Singular"

As I said it is a *composite* singular. It does include Abraham's descendants. You can't think that Jesus was alone promised habitation of the land of Canaan! ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have time for that? I'm currently trying to keep up with 2 forums and find it to be a bit much.

I'm retired, but I do stay busy. What I don't have time for is engaging in senseless arguments. When I see somebody being sensible, I'm happy to engage.

Okay, if that's how it is then so be it. That's okay. As long as it's not a case of you not making the effort to actually read what I'm saying.

No, I do read what you say. The times when I don't read all the way through is when the post is extraordinarily long, or tests the limits of my patience in other ways. ;)

You can rest assured I'm interested in every real point you wish to make. It is how I serve the Lord, whether it's for me finding something I need correcting on, or something that I need to correct for somebody else. Either way, it's worth my time.

 

[Truth7t7]

As I said it is a *composite* singular. It does include Abraham's descendants. You can't think that Jesus was alone promised habitation of the land of Canaan! ;)

Bend and Twist, Jesus is the "Seed" and all those who believe in Jesus are children of the promised "Seed" of both Jew and Gentile "The Church", you continue to post your Zionist false claims, I will continue to respond

Randy you bend and twist to no avail, the promise made to Abraham was fulfilled in Jesus Christ "Seed Singular"

All promises to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ the promised "Seed", your claim is false, there are no outstanding promises

You falsely believe and teach "Seeds" of many being "National Israel" False!

The Promised "seed singular" Jesus Christ,and all those that receive Jesus Christ are children of the promised seed "The Church"

Your desires and dreams for a "National Salvation For Israel" has blinded your eyes to scriptural truth IMO

You can't post scripture to support your Zionist claims, because none exist

You ignore the biblical truth below, trying desperately to build a Zionist Kingdom on this earth where ethnic Jews rule with God's favor, a "Myth"

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:8KJV
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Bend and Twist, Jesus is the "Seed" and all those who believe in Jesus are children of the promised "Seed" of both Jew and Gentile "The Church", you continue to post your Zionist false claims, I will continue to respond

Randy you bend and twist to no avail, the promise made to Abraham was fulfilled in Jesus Christ "Seed Singular"

You have a problem that you have yet to resolve. You only insist on disagreeing while you fail to answer the question: How is it Abraham applied a singular "seed" to his descendants? He was promised that his "seed" would dwell in Canaan.

Did Jesus do this? No! But instead of answering that question, you continue to double down on the indefensible. Feel free to repeat yourself into infinity--nobody will pay attention, because you can't answer the basic questions.

Gen 12.7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there built he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Even the New King James version translates "seed" as "descendants." The NIV translates "seed" as "offspring." So you're in a pickle. Either Jesus was promised the land of Canaan as the "seed" of Abraham, or Abraham's descendants were promised the land of Canaan.

In reality, what Paul meant by pointing out the singular use of "seed" was the idea that Abraham's descendants were a composite unity, defined by Christ through faith in him. But you can repeat yourself along with your typical insults until the sun goes down, if you care to. Your time to waste...

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As I said it is a *composite* singular. It does include Abraham's descendants.

Yes, it includes Abraham's spiritual descendants who have faith like him and belong to Christ, as Paul indicated.

Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Keraz]

Who are the people that will re-inhabit the holy Land after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Day of the Lord’s wrath? Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +
The true Israelites of God, those who come to live in the new country of Beulah, [Isaiah 62:1-5] cannot be those who are apostate or of any sort of deviant personality. But there must be many left alive in the world who will credit the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath to a natural event and continue on in their disbelief of a Creator God. They will form a One World Govt, as prophesied.

Ezekiel 20:37-38 is the best scripture that tells how the Lord will gather all His people, then judge them and those who ‘revolt and rebel’, will not enter the Land.
Jeremiah 5:26-29, Isaiah 66:19b-21
Amos 9:10…the sinners of My people will die by the sword… Isaiah 65:11-12
Isaiah 35:8-10…no one unclean will travel along the ‘Way of Holiness’ into Zion.
Romans 9:24-26 You Christians are My people and in the same place as Israel was rejected, you shall be called Children of the Living God.

As we see in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, it is the ‘holy ones of the Most High’ who are present in the Land during the end time events.

Unfortunately it is evident that the new Israelites go to some extent along the same path as their ancestors and in their prosperity, begin to fall away from the true faith in the Lord as their protector and they agree to a peace treaty with the leader of the OWG. Daniel 9:27 What the Lord thinks about this is in Isaiah 28:14-20
Isaiah 28:21-22 refers to the great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.


The rest of the world’s nations will be under the One World Government, a ten region entity governed by councils each headed by a President. They will soon confer their power and authority onto one charismatic leader, Revelation 17:13

So then, unrighteous and evil people will be present on earth right up until the Return of Jesus. Then, many prophesies say how all the wicked are destroyed then.
But Satan will be released at the end of the 1000 years and he will ‘seduce the nations’ for the one last time. This will sort out those who have kept their faith and those who rebel for the last earthly judgement.

For us, knowing how important it is to keep firm hold onto trusting the Lord for our protection during the forthcoming traumatic times ahead, it is a matter of life or death- Life eternal with Jesus or Death; eventual total annihilation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about God having 'blinded' the unbelieving Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles needs to be heeded by all Christian believers. This means when Jesus returns their 'blindness' God put upon them will be removed, and then they will be able to convert to Christ Jesus.

This is absolutely false. This is not at all what Paul taught. What you don't seem to understand is that some of those who were blinded in Paul's day ended up being saved.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Who were the ones who stumbled but not beyond recovery? The unbelieving Israelites of Paul's day. The ones who were blinded. Notice what Paul said about them. He said he had "the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them". Do you see that? He was hoping to help save some of those who are blinded back then. So, why are you thinking that being blinded equates to not having any opportunity to be saved? That isn't what it means. Some who were blinded were made envious by the salvation of the Gentiles and they too wanted the same salvation that the Gentiles had. That process has been ongoing for almost 2,000 years now. It has nothing to do with part of Israel being blinded for at least 2,000 years and then eventually getting the chance to be saved. Today is the day of salvation!

Do you think that God has withheld salvation from some Jews for the past almost 2,000 years without giving those Jews any opportunity to be saved? If so, that is not at all what Paul was teaching. God wants all people, including all Jews, to repent and to be saved (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9, 2 Tim 4:1-3, 1 John 2:1-2) and that has been true for the past 2,000 years as well. Someone being spiritually blind does not mean they have no opportunity to have their eyes opened.

Your teaching leads to people thinking that it isn't important to evangelize unbelieving Jews right now because they are currently blinded and can't be saved until some future time when Jesus returns and supernaturally removes their blindness. That is not what Paul taught! Instead, he taught that Jesus will be taking vengeance on all unbelievers when He returns. Your teaching says that there is no point in evangelizing Jews now because Jesus will open their eyes when He returns, when the fact of the matter is that He will destroy unbelieving Jews (and all other unbelievers) when He returns.