the real danger of Amillism

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus Himself taught that His kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20). But davy here teaches that it does come with observation. It's not hard to decide which position to accept.

The idea that the "Kingdom does not come with observation" does not mean the Kingdom is not coming *physically.* It means that carnal eyes cannot see the Kingdom's activity in bringing salvation to men and in preparing to bring judgment to sinners.

In Jesus' day, the Pharisees completely failed to see their inward sins, in particular their rejection of Christ. And they relied exclusively on their own works.

As a result, they could not "observe" the Kingdom operating through Jesus in front of them, because it is a limited form of God's Kingdom. They completely failed to see their own sins, as well as the sins of all Israel. Their expectations of the Kingdom were purely political and about external religious observance. But they lacked the ability to see the spiritual need and the fact Israel lacked that.

As such, the Kingdom can not be identified by that kind of observation. It is a spiritual insight that recognizes the Kingdom begins at present in limited form because the world is presently alienated from it.

But I believe this present activity of the Kingdom, which is mysterious and recognized only by eyes of faith, must be distinguished from the physical coming of the Kingdom. Jesus was not talking about that when he spoke of not being able to observe it *now.*

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh come on, brother!

Ugh. What a terrible response. Do you think I would have questioned it if I actually saw anything there? Come on yourself.

Jesus is coming with the clouds, ch. 1; he's coming with his Kingdom, ch. 11; he's coming on the clouds again ch. 14; he's coming at Armageddon, ch.16; he's coming on a white horse, ch. 19. All of these are visions of the same event, the descent of the Son of Man from heaven to establish his heavenly Kingdom on earth.

And it shows Him coming down to the earth where? Paul said that we will be meeting Him "in the air", not on the earth. I assume you have read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17?

When Paul refers to Dan 7 about the Son of Man descending form heaven, he is talking about a *descent* from heaven, which means he is coming to the earth.

Where does Daniel 7 say something about the Son of Man descending from heaven? If you're talking about Daniel 7:13-14 that is talking about His ascension, not His second coming. You can easily see that because it talks about Him being brought before "the Ancient of Days", which is exactly what happened when He ascended to heaven.

I don't think he'll remain here as such. I personally believe he is only coming to establish his Kingdom, to bind Satan, and to reveal himself to Israel and to the world.

Yeah, I know what you believe by now.

But after that, it's just speculation that he returns to heaven with his glorified Church to rule over a Millennial earth. I take Rev 20 as is, and have to speculate about the details.

I take Revelation 20 as is, also.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The idea that the "Kingdom does not come with observation" does not mean the Kingdom is not coming *physically.*

No kidding. That is not my point. My point is that His kingdom exists now and did not come with observation. When the kingdom comes with observation at His return that is when He will hand it over to the Father, as Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, McKeever was a Pre-mill--I don't know if he's still alive?[/quote]No, he died a few years ago, I believe.

I subscribed to his newsletter until he turned on the Jews with a vengeance.

My mom received that newsletter when I was a kid as well and I used to read it. I've always been post-trib and McKeever was post-trib, so I found his articles to be interesting.

I've seen it again and again from all kinds. The unique danger in Amill is its inclination towards rejecting the Jews as a nation that's been rejected forever. So the tendency for them is to want to prove that the Jews no longer have a national hope. That can lead to anti-Semitic rhetoric.

I disagree. Amill focuses on unity between Jew and Gentile believers and does not promote anti-Semitism in any way, shape or form.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, he died a few years ago, I believe.

My mom received that newsletter when I was a kid as well and I used to read it. I've always been post-trib and McKeever was post-trib, so I found his articles to be interesting.

Yes, an IBM guy who was solid and yet willing to tackle a subject that was very unpopular. The entire Prophecy section of Christian bookstores were, at the time, devoted to 666, the Antichrist, and the Pretrib Rapture. Postrib was rarely addressed.

I was raised in an Amill, Postrib denomination and never knew any different until my teenaged years when I adopted my Christian friends' beliefs, which was Premil, Pretrib. I only changed to Premil, Postrib when I began a Bible memorization undertaking and memorized 2 Thessalonians, which I discovered to be decidedly Postribulational!

I disagree. Amill focuses on unity between Jew and Gentile believers and does not promote anti-Semitism in any way, shape or form.

I've tried to explain that I don't believe Amill as a rule engages in Antii-Semitism. My point is that from my pov, the theology is wrong and encourages that kind of thinking from the spiritually weak. Solidly Christian Amils are *not* Anti-Semitic! My purpose is to encourage that and to discourage the other.

 

[Truth7t7]

I've tried to explain that I don't believe Amill as a rule engages in Antii-Semitism. My point is that from my pov, the theology is wrong and encourages that kind of thinking from the spiritually weak. Solidly Christian Amils are *not* Anti-Semitic! My purpose is to encourage that and to discourage the other.

Randy anybody who disagree with your Zionust claims "Israel's National Salvation" that you promote, just to mention one, is branded as Anti-Semetic

God has no future plan for National Israel as you claim, you bring forth novel size claims without one scripture referenced in support, as you desperately try to build a Zionist kingdom on earth where Jews will rule in a Millennium

I'm not being Anti-Semetic but honest, your passionate claims don't exist in scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

And it shows Him coming down to the earth where? Paul said that we will be meeting Him "in the air", not on the earth. I assume you have read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17?

The Church meets Jesus in the air. Jesus descends *from heaven,* which means he returns to earth.

We are caught up to meet the Lord as he descends from heaven to the earth. I believe we are caught up to heaven to be transformed by heaven, so as to return with him to earth to establish his heavenly Kingdom here.

Acts 1 indicates that Jesus returns just as he left. If he left from the earth he is coming back to the earth.
Acts 1.11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Where does Daniel 7 say something about the Son of Man descending from heaven? If you're talking about Daniel 7:13-14 that is talking about His ascension, not His second coming. You can easily see that because it talks about Him being brought before "the Ancient of Days", which is exactly what happened when He ascended to heaven.

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence."

I might agree with you except that the NT authors based their own theology on the Coming of the Son of Man on this very verse. And they interpreted it as a *descent from heaven.*

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The questionable statement in the verse in Dan 7 is the approach of the Son of Man to God in heaven. Is the Son of Man remaining with the clouds of heaven, or is he coming back from heaven?

I believe the NT authors interpreted this as the Son of Man coming back from heaven. His being led into the presence of God may have significance in the sense that after Jesus returns from heaven he returns to heaven to rule from there over the Kingdom on earth.

It seems clear to me that Paul interpreted the Son of Man's descent from the clouds of heaven as a *descent from heaven.* Coming with the clouds means just that--a descent from heaven, which means he must leave heaven and be on earth. Acts 1 confirms that, in my view.

He takes the kingdoms of the world for himself, and then he goes to heaven to deliver the kingdoms of the world to God to bring all things under His rule.

1 Cor 15.24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy anybody who disagree with your Zionust claims "Israel's National Salvation" that you promote, just to mention one, is branded as Anti-Semetic

No, that's your false interpretation of what I'm saying. I'm most certainly *not* saying that! There are many good Amills who aren't Anti-Semitic, and many good Replacement Theology advocates who are great, and spiritual Christians. My concern is that whether I'm wrong or right the theology seems to lead some individuals to become slanted against the Jewish People, almost as if they want to prove they're so evil that they can't possibly repent and form a Christian nation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No kidding. That is not my point. My point is that His kingdom exists now and did not come with observation. When the kingdom comes with observation at His return that is when He will hand it over to the Father, as Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

Thanks for the explanation! Some people seem to have been promoting the idea that the physical Kingdom is not coming at all based on this verse! I'm glad you don't feel that way.

Like you I do believe there is a form of the Kingdom presently active on earth, both temporal Christian kingdoms and the spiritual activity of the Kingdom bringing salvation to the righteous and judgment to the wicked. Amills are not always far removed from what I believe. The big difference is largely about speculating about the future, which should concern us less than where we're at today.

 

[ewq1938]

I believe we are caught up to heaven to be transformed by heaven

The rapture brings people to the clouds of the Earth, not to "heaven".

 

[MatthewG]

The Scriptures do not seem to encourage us to place too much importance on speculating about future things. So we may or may not think a future literal Millennium is coming. We all believe the eternal Kingdom of Christ is coming. That unites us.

The dangers of Amillennial thinking are quite different from this. It isn't about speculating about future conditions in the Kingdom Age. Rather, it's about ignoring the underlying beliefs of Premillennialism, which requires acceptance of a literal Millennial Age in which the nation Israel is restored. Rejecting this is closing our hearts to backslidden Jews, which is not very "evangelical" for Christians to do.

Secondly, it is an underlying assumption in Premillennialism that though Christ defeated Satan at the cross, with respect to our Salvation, we must accept that our Salvation is not yet complete, and Satan continues to oppose us. That is, he is not yet fully bound.

To ignore this condemns us to the frustration of finding we are not able to cast Satan out of the world, and are not able to stop his opposition to our ministry. To not become frustrated and fall into despair, we have to know the conditions under which we successfully apply our ministry.

I think we need to be realistic and recognize that things are difficult in the present age. Though we have our Salvation secure, we need to remain on our guard until Satan is actually bound.

We may speculate about whether mortal humanity continues to live on the planet after Christ comes. But the important thing is to recognize where we are today, so that we are able to fulfill our ministries. Let's be united about that?

You know people believe and speculate on scripture and come up with date ideas of when the Lord is going to come only to misunderstand that the scripture was a historical record for a time and place and generation with-in that context of what the Lord Jesus Christ had come, said, and had done.

He was promised to return again to those in that generation yet people disagree and they thing it is hogwash because of other people in their churches who preach the return of Christ and everyone is united with the same mindset.

I believe that Kingdom has already been established along with Satan and his defeat.

Many people do not and believe that devil is still out there and is the one who effects them when they have a "bad behavior or bad thought" - placing the blame on someone else always makes thing seem easier rather than dealing with the problem that it is with-in your soul (heart/mind/will/emotions) that are coming back with dark thoughts - that need to rectified with prayer and supplications to the LORD.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, that's your false interpretation of what I'm saying. I'm most certainly *not* saying that! There are many good Amills who aren't Anti-Semitic, and many good Replacement Theology advocates who are great, and spiritual Christians. My concern is that whether I'm wrong or right the theology seems to lead some individuals to become slanted against the Jewish People, almost as if they want to prove they're so evil that they can't possibly repent and form a Christian nation.

It's a nice desire to want and believe Israel will become a Christian Nation, but it's found no place in scripture

As previously stated you write novel size response on what you see as Israel being a Christian Nation, without one scripture in support

God has no favor for an ethnic group as you believe and teach regarding Israel, "For God So Loved The World"

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

It's a nice desire to want and believe Israel will become a Christian Nation, but it's found no place in scripture

As previously stated you write novel size response on what you see as Israel being a Christian Nation, without one scripture in support

God has no favor for an ethnic group as you believe and teach regarding Israel, "For God So Loved The World"

Jesus Is The Lord

No, I have a lot more than nothing. I just don't wish to waste my time looking up the many passages of Scripture that represent the "Jewish Hope" when most people know there is actually a "Jewish Hope" already. That is, they know that Jews base their future hope, "next year in Jerusalem," on their own Scriptures. Your apparent ignorance of that is disturbing, or else, you simply wish to take up my time quoting Scriptures that you've already determined you reject?

When Jesus proclaimed that God's Kingdom was "near," the Jews knew what he was talking about. They understood this as the fulfillment of promises God had made to Abraham--Gen 12-17.

Matt 8.11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Isa 49.5 And now the Lord says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord
and my God has been my strength—
6 he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

Just so that there is no doubt about Jesus declaring that he believed in this eschatological salvation of national Israel we read this:

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

In other words, Jesus assented to the notion that national Israel will obtain her hope. But the important thing to note is that times and season are in God's hands. That is, it will happen in God's time--not ours.

And the way Jesus described it directly correlates with the Abrahamic promise. It ensured Abraham's natural descendants, the Jews, would see their nation saved. And they would also see a witness to the whole world, to bring salvation to many nations, as well. It's just that Christian ministry in this age must precede this in order to proclaim the message before the harvest actually comes in.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You know people believe and speculate on scripture and come up with date ideas of when the Lord is going to come only to misunderstand that the scripture was a historical record for a time and place and generation with-in that context of what the Lord Jesus Christ had come, said, and had done.

He was promised to return again to those in that generation yet people disagree and they thing it is hogwash because of other people in their churches who preach the return of Christ and everyone is united with the same mindset.

I believe that Kingdom has already been established along with Satan and his defeat.

Many people do not and believe that devil is still out there and is the one who effects them when they have a "bad behavior or bad thought" - placing the blame on someone else always makes thing seem easier rather than dealing with the problem that it is with-in your soul (heart/mind/will/emotions) that are coming back with dark thoughts - that need to rectified with prayer and supplications to the LORD.

I agree with you that Satan is a real enemy. I do not agree with you that the Kingdom has already established, ie the eschatological Kingdom. Has membership in this Kingdom been provided for at the Cross? Certainly! Has the heavenly Kingdom been making an impact on earth presently? Definitely!

So we may not be far apart. However, I don't think that Jesus was promised to return in the generation he mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. He said "all these things," referring to the "birth pains," would take place in his generation. These were preliminary signs of the Roman judgment to take place in Jesus' generation, because the Jews at that time had completely apostacized. They had put on religious clothes and had inside of them rejected the Son of God.

And so, Jesus was saying that in that very generation judgment would fall on the temple and on Jerusalem. This would lead to an age-long exile of the Jewish People, as you can read in Luke 21. In no way was Jesus predicting his own return in that same generation, since he said clearly that his coming would be an unmistakable revelation at the end of this age of Jewish tribulation. And it would happen on an unknown day.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is, they know that Jews base their future hope, "next year in Jerusalem," on their own Scriptures. Your apparent ignorance of that is disturbing, or else, you simply wish to take up my time quoting Scriptures that you've already determined you reject?

Not one word you posted speaks of a future National Salvation for Israel, not one word in my holy Bible speaks of your claims, perhaps your reading the Jews Rabbinical Talmud, because the only Jewish hope in my holy Bible is salvation in Jesus Christ, that Judaism rejects

Your claims are Zionist fantasy land Randy, found no place in scripture, no such thing as National Salvation for any country on earth "None"!

The Future will see a remnant Jew that will be saved and become the Church who is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed Romans 9:6-8

 

[MatthewG]

I agree with you that Satan is a real enemy. I do not agree with you that the Kingdom has already established, ie the eschatological Kingdom. Has membership in this Kingdom been provided for at the Cross? Certainly! Has the heavenly Kingdom been making an impact on earth presently? Definitely!

So we may not be far apart. However, I don't think that Jesus was promised to return in the generation he mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. He said "all these things," referring to the "birth pains," would take place in his generation. These were preliminary signs of the Roman judgment to take place in Jesus' generation, because the Jews at that time had completely apostacized. They had put on religious clothes and had inside of them rejected the Son of God.

And so, Jesus was saying that in that very generation judgment would fall on the temple and on Jerusalem. This would lead to an age-long exile of the Jewish People, as you can read in Luke 21. In no way was Jesus predicting his own return in that same generation, since he said clearly that his coming would be an unmistakable revelation at the end of this age of Jewish tribulation. And it would happen on an unknown day.

Alright then, though I believe Jesus on those matters as addressed earlier. :)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Alright then, though I believe Jesus on those matters as addressed earlier. :)

That's okay, brother. We're just sharing our views in a friendly way. Just opinion-sharing, and not condemning one another, hopefully?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not one word you posted speaks of a future National Salvation for Israel, not one word in my holy Bible speaks of your claims, perhaps your reading the Jews Rabbinical Talmud, because the only Jewish hope in my holy Bible is salvation in Jesus Christ, that Judaism rejects

Your claims are Zionist fantasy land Randy, found no place in scripture, no such thing as National Salvation for any country on earth "None"!

The Future will see a remnant Jew that will be saved and become the Church who is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed Romans 9:6-8

This is another reason I don't waste hours providing Scriptures for those who in reality have no interest at all in my quoting Bible verses. But at times I do wish to show other readers what a lie it is that I don't provide any Bible verses.

I most certainly do. Every time I mention the "Abrahamic Promises" it's already been backed up by multiple previous references to Gen 12 and 17. I need not repeatedly quote these passages just to prove wrong your claim that I back up nothing with Bible verses.

But I do want others to know the basis of my arguments in Scripture. Thanks for at least reading.

 

[MatthewG]

That's okay, brother. We're just sharing our views in a friendly way. Just opinion-sharing, and not condemning one another, hopefully?

no

 

[Truth7t7]

I most certainly do. Every time I mention the "Abrahamic Promises" it's already been backed up by multiple previous references to Gen 12 and 17. I need not repeatedly quote these passages just to prove wrong your claim that I back up nothing with Bible verses.

But I do want others to know the basis of my arguments in Scripture. Thanks for at least reading.

All promises to Abraham have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ the promised "Seed", your claim is false, there are no outstanding promises

You falsely believe and teach "Seeds" of many being "National Israel" False!

The Promised "seed singular" Jesus Christ,and all those that receive Jesus Christ are children of the promised seed "The Church"

Your desires and dreams for a "National Salvation For Israel" has blinded your eyes to scriptural truth IMO

You can't post scripture to support your Zionist claims, because none exist

You ignore the biblical truth below, trying desperately to build a Zionist Kingdom on this earth where ethnic Jews rule with God's favor, a "Myth"

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.