the real danger of Amillism

[Randy Kluth]

No such thing as "National Salvation For Israel" as you continue to claim, this is found no place in scripture, your Zionism is on full display

You know the problem I have with you, brother? It's the fact you feel you have to negate everything I say every time I say it. Do you really think this is creating a positive atmosphere between us? Do you really think you are working hard enough to effect the change you want? Trying to force your will upon me will get you nothing. A sheep listens to the Shepherd--not to false, wannabe shepherds.

 

[Truth7t7]

You know the problem I have with you, brother? It's the fact you feel you have to negate everything I say every time I say it. Do you really think this is creating a positive atmosphere between us? Do you really think you are working hard enough to effect the change you want? Trying to force your will upon me will get you nothing. A sheep listens to the Shepherd--not to false, wannabe shepherds.

Once again, no such thing as "National Salvation For Israel" your claims are found no place in scripture, you will closely note your postings are void of scripture, because there isn't any to support your claims

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[GEN2REV]

The Scriptures beg to differ with you.

All you have to do is provide Scripture to make your case.

Paul warned about those who had said the Kingdom had already arrived.

Scripture?

When Jesus was here the 1st time, he preached a Gospel of a "near" Kingdom--not a *here* Kingdom. You are teaching a Kingdom of heaven that is already with us, even though Jesus has not yet come back a 2nd time.

Jesus plainly taught the Kingdom was, and is, within all True Spirit (God)-filled Believers.
Luke 17:21

Thy Kingdom Come - means that the Kingdom HAS come. God's will IS being done.
Matthew 6:10

That's now.

The impact of the heavenly Kingdom on the earth presently concerns the Christian witness and ministry, but does not preclude Satanic opposition and persecution. The world's rulers run amok with Satanic authority, and the corrupt world loves it. This is not the Kingdom of heaven ruling on earth--no.

Yes, it is a Spiritual Kingdom that rules upon the earth from within all True Believers. That is where Christ is presently - upon the earth within all True Believers ... waging an ongoing war that culminates with His physical return and the final destruction of the earth and all wickedness.
1 Corinthians 15:24-27

No Pre-Mil.

 

[Davy]

All you have to do is provide Scripture to make your case. Scripture?Jesus plainly taught the Kingdom was, and is, within all True Spirit (God)-filled Believers.
Luke 17:21

You shouldn't brag as if you understand that Scripture, when you show you do not, but only pull a verse out of that and push traditions of men.

The ACTUAL meaning of what Jesus said there:

Luke 17:20-24
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, "Lo here! or, lo there!" for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Lord Jesus was pointing to them about THIS PRESENT WORLD, not the world to come when His literal Kingdom will be manifested de facto upon this earth with His return and literal reign on earth.

So during this PRESENT WORLD TIME, Christ's Kingdom is 'within' those of His servants here on earth only, meaning by The Holy Spirit in them through their Faith. But that is going to change in the future with Christ's future return, as written in many, many other Scriptures. So it's silly to even think about forgetting that future part.


22 And He said unto the disciples, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, "See here; or, see there": go not after them, nor follow them.

Jesus further points out the difference of THIS PRESENT WORLD TIME to His disciples. Even they will desire to see one of the days of Christ's future Kingdom to come, and shall not see it IN THIS PRESENT TIME. And THEREFORE... If... any man during this present world comes up to you and says something like, "See here, or, see there", trying to say His Kingdom has come IN THIS WORLD, Jesus is saying DO NOT FOLLOW THOSE MEN! That warning comes from His Olivet discourse about the pseudo-Christ coming at the end of this PRESENT WORLD. He warned to not believe it if someone says, "Lo, Christ is here, or there" (Matthew 24:23-26).

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in His day.
KJV

Exact same idea He gave in His Olivet discourse right after His warning about some saying He is here, when it will be a pseudo-Christ having come instead. The idea of seeing lightning shine across the sky is about the whole world will know and see Christ's true coming in the clouds. No man will have to tell us He has come.

Thy Kingdom Come - means that the Kingdom HAS come. God's will IS being done.
Matthew 6:10

No, that prayer is a PETITION for His future Kingdom to come, not that it has already come.

If the church you are attending is teaching that Christ's Kingdom is already manifest here today on earth, that it has come, and there is nothing else to establish, then those are deceived, and are actually preparing their congregations for the coming false-Messiah that is to come first prior to Lord Jesus' coming.

The Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters reveals a Millennial sanctuary in the area of Jerusalem is where Jesus will reign with His elect from starting at His future return. And with that sanctuary will manifest a return of God's River of the Waters of Life, and the Tree of Life, both mentioned at the end of Revelation.

 

[GEN2REV]

You shouldn't brag as if you understand that Scripture, when you show you do not, but only pull a verse out of that and push traditions of men.

Oh YAY! Another delusional person who believes THEY are God's SOLE mouthpiece and we all must come TO THEM for Bible translation.

2 Peter 1:20

I present plain Scripture to make my case, and you claim "Well, is that what the Bible REALLLLY said?"
Genesis 3:1

Your tail is showing again.

 

[Marilyn C]

You're making a judgment call here that I don't agree with. Much in life does not drop down from heaven, packaged, pre-read, and ready for application. Much in life is a process that requires taking the initiative, being responsible, and maintaining self-discipline. God is interested in children--not robots. Speculation is adventurous, which is precisely who God is. He made us, didn't he? ;)



By all means, Marilyn, tell me more. I may have missed the full significance of "Son of Man." I see that title in all the usual ways, as "being human," as opposed to strictly divine, and being the Messiah from heaven in the form of Man, as in Dan 7.

I don't have a problem understanding that he came down from heaven to be our human redeemer, if that's what you mean?

Hi Randy,

I see I may have been too hasty there. I thought to `speculate` was to make up, and led to `foolish and ignorant disputes.` (2 Tim. 2: 23) I looked in the Dictionary and it means to `meditate.` So, I apologise for my wrong statement there. I think I may have been thinking of `risky financial transactions,` which the Dictionary also says.

As to the `kinsman-redeemer` notes, thank you for asking. I will put some together.

Marilyn.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

I see I may have been too hasty there. I thought to `speculate` was to make up, and led to `foolish and ignorant disputes.` (2 Tim. 2: 23) I looked in the Dictionary and it means to `meditate.` So, I apologise for my wrong statement there. I think I may have been thinking of `risky financial transactions,` which the Dictionary also says.

As to the `kinsman-redeemer` notes, thank you for asking. I will put some together.

Marilyn.

I thought you may have been going there with the "speculation" concern. If that was what you're were warning against, I completely agree. Going beyond the Bible dogmatically is a dangerous thing. Thanks for the explanation.

Yes, I'd like to see what you have on kinsman-redeemer. I'm always looking to grow in understanding of biblical concepts and truths. :)

 

[WPM]

Lord Jesus was pointing to them about THIS PRESENT WORLD, not the world to come when His literal Kingdom will be manifested de facto upon this earth with His return and literal reign on earth.

Premillennialists make statements like this but fail to carry it up with hard Scripture. For example, where does Revelation 20 show Jesus on earth?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Premillennialists make statements like this but fail to carry it up with hard Scripture. For example, where does Revelation 20 show Jesus on earth?

Jesus' return to earth is shown from Rev 1 to Rev 19. But I believe he comes back with his glorified Church only to establish his Kingdom on earth--I believe he will continue to rule from heaven for a thousand years. It's just an opinion--one I'm sure you reject.

 

[WPM]

Jesus' return to earth is shown from Rev 1 to Rev 19. But I believe he comes back with his glorified Church only to establish his Kingdom on earth--I believe he will continue to rule from heaven for a thousand years. It's just an opinion--one I'm sure you reject.

How about actually quoting a passage that states that instead of your opinions.

 

[Randy Kluth]

How about actually quoting a passage that states that instead of your opinions.

No need to quote things that are already understood. You attack the frame, and ignore the painting.

My purpose was in fact speculation. The biblical points were already pointed out, that from Rev 1-19 Christ is viewed as coming back *to earth.* You disagree with this?

 

[WPM]

No need to quote things that are already understood. You attack the frame, and ignore the painting.

My purpose was in fact speculation. The biblical points were already pointed out, that from Rev 1-19 Christ is viewed as coming back *to earth.* You disagree with this?

No, i challenged your whole portrayal. It is not biblical. That is why you rarely present Scripture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, i challenged your whole portrayal. It is not biblical. That is why you rarely present Scripture.

Well, brother, you rarely present Christ's kindness. Which is more important to you, that I back up every point in every post with Scripture or that I always try to be kind?

However, if you wish to challenge my "whole portrayal" then you need to be more specific. Non-specific attacks are just attacks without ammunition.

 

[WPM]

Well, brother, you rarely present Christ's kindness. Which is more important to you, that I back up every point in every post with Scripture or that I always try to be kind?

However, if you wish to challenge my "whole portrayal" then you need to be more specific. Non-specific attacks are just attacks without ammunition.

Not so. You MO is: when your doctrine and lack of hermeneutics are challenged you respond with Ad Hominem. That is how you function.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not so. You MO is: when your doctrine and lack of hermeneutics are challenged you respond with Ad Hominem. That is how you function.

Sorry, but you're the one perpetuating the animosity. Your extracurricular comments are not welcome. Real discussion is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All I'm saying is that *in my experience* those who reject the Jewish People as no longer under a covenant relationship with God tend to be somewhat hostile to Jews. This causes the Jews to reject Christian evangelization because these Christians are not a good witness to them of the love of God.

You did not specify this in your post. You only referred to Amillennialism in general. You said "the dangers of Amillennial thinking are...". Next time make it clear that this is just your own experience rather than giving the impression that all Amils are that way. Not even close. You must have very limited experience. I don't believe any Amils on this site are hostile to Jews.

I've seen this *all my life* from Pat Brooks to Jim McKeever.

McKeever was a Premillennialist. Unless he changed his view at some point without my realizing it.

I've had close friends change their view on Israel's covenant relationship with God and instantly turn to a Jew-hating conspiracy theorist. (Consider Luther's "Against the Jews and their Lies" material!)

That may not be you, and I trust not. I just worry about this connection between denying Israel's inheritance and Anti-Semitic rhetoric. I'm glad you say you're not there.

Not just me but many, many other Amils as well. You are generalizing far too much here.

It isn't just Amills--it's big in the Faith and Dominion movements. They believe that they are bringing in the Kingdom--a *present* Kingdom concept, similar to what Amills believe. This leads some to political-Christian movements that are Far Right and oppressive, or in some cases to idealistic beliefs that in the end do not pan out.

We cannot "cast Satan out of the world," though we may indeed exercise exorcism. We cannot make the world Christian, not if we have all the faith in the world. God has placed limits on what we can do in the present age. Satan will be completely subdued in the next age, I believe.

If you have a clear doctrine that takes Satan's power seriously, power to you! I'm happy you won't be deceived. That's all I'm concerned about--not labeling Amills.

Then please make that clear any time you talk about this instead of making it as if the Amil doctrine itself promotes anti-Semitism which is absolutely false.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No need to quote things that are already understood. You attack the frame, and ignore the painting.

My purpose was in fact speculation. The biblical points were already pointed out, that from Rev 1-19 Christ is viewed as coming back *to earth.* You disagree with this?

Where, at any point in Revelation 1-19, does it talk about Christ coming down to the earth as we know it?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You shouldn't brag as if you understand that Scripture, when you show you do not, but only pull a verse out of that and push traditions of men.

The ACTUAL meaning of what Jesus said there:

Luke 17:20-24
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, "Lo here! or, lo there!" for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Lord Jesus was pointing to them about THIS PRESENT WORLD, not the world to come when His literal Kingdom will be manifested de facto upon this earth with His return and literal reign on earth.

So during this PRESENT WORLD TIME, Christ's Kingdom is 'within' those of His servants here on earth only, meaning by The Holy Spirit in them through their Faith. But that is going to change in the future with Christ's future return, as written in many, many other Scriptures. So it's silly to even think about forgetting that future part.


22 And He said unto the disciples, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, "See here; or, see there": go not after them, nor follow them.

Jesus further points out the difference of THIS PRESENT WORLD TIME to His disciples. Even they will desire to see one of the days of Christ's future Kingdom to come, and shall not see it IN THIS PRESENT TIME. And THEREFORE... If... any man during this present world comes up to you and says something like, "See here, or, see there", trying to say His Kingdom has come IN THIS WORLD, Jesus is saying DO NOT FOLLOW THOSE MEN! That warning comes from His Olivet discourse about the pseudo-Christ coming at the end of this PRESENT WORLD. He warned to not believe it if someone says, "Lo, Christ is here, or there" (Matthew 24:23-26).

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in His day.
KJV

Exact same idea He gave in His Olivet discourse right after His warning about some saying He is here, when it will be a pseudo-Christ having come instead. The idea of seeing lightning shine across the sky is about the whole world will know and see Christ's true coming in the clouds. No man will have to tell us He has come.



No, that prayer is a PETITION for His future Kingdom to come, not that it has already come.

If the church you are attending is teaching that Christ's Kingdom is already manifest here today on earth, that it has come, and there is nothing else to establish, then those are deceived, and are actually preparing their congregations for the coming false-Messiah that is to come first prior to Lord Jesus' coming.

The Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters reveals a Millennial sanctuary in the area of Jerusalem is where Jesus will reign with His elect from starting at His future return. And with that sanctuary will manifest a return of God's River of the Waters of Life, and the Tree of Life, both mentioned at the end of Revelation.

Jesus Himself taught that His kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20). But davy here teaches that it does come with observation. It's not hard to decide which position to accept.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You did not specify this in your post. You only referred to Amillennialism in general. You said "the dangers of Amillennial thinking are...". Next time make it clear that this is just your own experience rather than giving the impression that all Amils are that way. Not even close. You must have very limited experience. I don't believe any Amils on this site are hostile to Jews.

McKeever was a Premillennialist. Unless he changed his view at some point without my realizing it.

Not just me but many, many other Amils as well. You are generalizing far too much here.

Then please make that clear any time you talk about this instead of making it as if the Amil doctrine itself promotes anti-Semitism which is absolutely false.

The purpose of my post was to show the dangers in Amil thinking as linked to other similar positions. Yes, McKeever was a Pre-mill--I don't know if he's still alive? I subscribed to his newsletter until he turned on the Jews with a vengeance. I've seen it again and again from all kinds. The unique danger in Amill is its inclination towards rejecting the Jews as a nation that's been rejected forever. So the tendency for them is to want to prove that the Jews no longer have a national hope. That can lead to anti-Semitic rhetoric.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where, at any point in Revelation 1-19, does it talk about Christ coming down to the earth as we know it?

Oh come on, brother! Jesus is coming with the clouds, ch. 1; he's coming with his Kingdom, ch. 11; he's coming on the clouds again ch. 14; he's coming at Armageddon, ch.16; he's coming on a white horse, ch. 19. All of these are visions of the same event, the descent of the Son of Man from heaven to establish his heavenly Kingdom on earth.

When Paul refers to Dan 7 about the Son of Man descending form heaven, he is talking about a *descent* from heaven, which means he is coming to the earth. I don't think he'll remain here as such. I personally believe he is only coming to establish his Kingdom, to bind Satan, and to reveal himself to Israel and to the world.

But after that, it's just speculation that he returns to heaven with his glorified Church to rule over a Millennial earth. I take Rev 20 as is, and have to speculate about the details.