the real danger of Amillism

[Randy Kluth]

The Scriptures do not seem to encourage us to place too much importance on speculating about future things. So we may or may not think a future literal Millennium is coming. We all believe the eternal Kingdom of Christ is coming. That unites us.

The dangers of Amillennial thinking are quite different from this. It isn't about speculating about future conditions in the Kingdom Age. Rather, it's about ignoring the underlying beliefs of Premillennialism, which requires acceptance of a literal Millennial Age in which the nation Israel is restored. Rejecting this is closing our hearts to backslidden Jews, which is not very "evangelical" for Christians to do.

Secondly, it is an underlying assumption in Premillennialism that though Christ defeated Satan at the cross, with respect to our Salvation, we must accept that our Salvation is not yet complete, and Satan continues to oppose us. That is, he is not yet fully bound.

To ignore this condemns us to the frustration of finding we are not able to cast Satan out of the world, and are not able to stop his opposition to our ministry. To not become frustrated and fall into despair, we have to know the conditions under which we successfully apply our ministry.

I think we need to be realistic and recognize that things are difficult in the present age. Though we have our Salvation secure, we need to remain on our guard until Satan is actually bound.

We may speculate about whether mortal humanity continues to live on the planet after Christ comes. But the important thing is to recognize where we are today, so that we are able to fulfill our ministries. Let's be united about that?

 

[bbyrd009]

We may speculate about whether mortal humanity continues to live on the planet after Christ comes

wadr you might better speculate on the nature of Christ’s coming, that the rest of your ministry might be fulfilled?
After all, where is the Body of Christ?

 

[No Pre-TB]

which requires acceptance of a literal Millennial Age in which the nation Israel is restored.

Randy, does a physical nation need to be restored in order to fulfill this prophecy or can it be a spiritual Israel that is fully restored. If we arnt physical Israelites, but we are spiritual Israelites and we are part of the same original fold, having the same Shepherd, why wouldn’t our completeness (fullness of nations and veil removed from Jews) be a restoration and fulfill the prophecy?

Not looking to argue. Just inquiring your thoughts. Thanks

 

[Keraz]

Jesus told us perfectly plainly, who the 'nation' is that will inherit the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43
It will be the people group who produces the fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5:22, Colossians 1:10

Speculation that an ethnic 'nation' will be that group, is wrong; because they are Christian peoples from every tribe, race, country and language.
The fate of the Jewish House of Israel, is well prophesied and only a Messianic remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

People who believe that we are in the Millennium now, are very wrong and confused. It will be more difficult for them as the dramatic end times events happen.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus told us perfectly plainly, who the 'nation' is that will inherit the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43
It will be the people group who produces the fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5:22, Colossians 1:10

Speculation that an ethnic 'nation' will be that group, is wrong; because they are Christian peoples from every tribe, race, country and language.
The fate of the Jewish House of Israel, is well prophesied and only a Messianic remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

People who believe that we are in the Millennium now, are very wrong and confused. It will be more difficult for them as the dramatic end times events happen.

You spoke well until you got to the part about the millennium not being now. Makes more sense that a remnant is saved in this gospel age by faith rather than a future millennial age by sight.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Scriptures do not seem to encourage us to place too much importance on speculating about future things. So we may or may not think a future literal Millennium is coming. We all believe the eternal Kingdom of Christ is coming. That unites us.

The dangers of Amillennial thinking are quite different from this. It isn't about speculating about future conditions in the Kingdom Age. Rather, it's about ignoring the underlying beliefs of Premillennialism, which requires acceptance of a literal Millennial Age in which the nation Israel is restored. Rejecting this is closing our hearts to backslidden Jews, which is not very "evangelical" for Christians to do.

This is absolutely false. I am an Amillennialist and believe God wants all people, including all Jews, to be saved. So, I believe in evangelizing all people, including all Jews. How am I closing my heart to backslidden Jews with my belief? I'm not. I'm very tired of how Amil gets misrepresented on this forum.

Secondly, it is an underlying assumption in Premillennialism that though Christ defeated Satan at the cross, with respect to our Salvation, we must accept that our Salvation is not yet complete, and Satan continues to oppose us. That is, he is not yet fully bound.

To ignore this condemns us to the frustration of finding we are not able to cast Satan out of the world, and are not able to stop his opposition to our ministry. To not become frustrated and fall into despair, we have to know the conditions under which we successfully apply our ministry.

I think we need to be realistic and recognize that things are difficult in the present age. Though we have our Salvation secure, we need to remain on our guard until Satan is actually bound.

We may speculate about whether mortal humanity continues to live on the planet after Christ comes. But the important thing is to recognize where we are today, so that we are able to fulfill our ministries. Let's be united about that?

Amillennialism does not deny that we have to be spiritually alert and aware of Satan's schemes. Amillennialism does NOT teach that Satan's binding entails making him completely incapacitated, as Premils believe. If Amil did teach that then you would have a point here because that would mean we were leading people astray in thinking that they don't need to worry about Satan. But, Amil does not teach that at all.

Amil emphasizes the power and majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us which gives us authority over Satan and our spiritual enemies. It doesn't mean we take them lightly, it just means we recognize the authority we have in Christ. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, right? Amils believe that wholeheartedly. Satan can't keep us from doing anything if we resist him and keep our focus on Christ. We believe that the gospel has been hugely successful in the New Testament time period which has resulted in MANY people being saved. A far higher percentage of people than in Old Testament times. We believe Satan needed to be bound in order for that to be the case.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus told us perfectly plainly, who the 'nation' is that will inherit the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43
It will be the people group who produces the fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5:22, Colossians 1:10

Speculation that an ethnic 'nation' will be that group, is wrong; because they are Christian peoples from every tribe, race, country and language.
The fate of the Jewish House of Israel, is well prophesied and only a Messianic remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

Agree.

People who believe that we are in the Millennium now, are very wrong and confused.

You are very wrong about this. We are not wrong and have no confusion. We agree with the scriptures which clearly teach that Jesus reigns now and that we are priests in His kingdom now (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-22, Col 1:13-14, 1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:5-6).

It will be more difficult for them as the dramatic end times events happen.

Why is that?

 

[jeffweeder]

The Scriptures do not seem to encourage us to place too much importance on speculating about future things. So we may or may not think a future literal Millennium is coming. We all believe the eternal Kingdom of Christ is coming. That unites us.

The dangers of Amillennial thinking are quite different from this. It isn't about speculating about future conditions in the Kingdom Age. Rather, it's about ignoring the underlying beliefs of Premillennialism, which requires acceptance of a literal Millennial Age in which the nation Israel is restored. Rejecting this is closing our hearts to backslidden Jews, which is not very "evangelical" for Christians to do.

Secondly, it is an underlying assumption in Premillennialism that though Christ defeated Satan at the cross, with respect to our Salvation, we must accept that our Salvation is not yet complete, and Satan continues to oppose us. That is, he is not yet fully bound.

To ignore this condemns us to the frustration of finding we are not able to cast Satan out of the world, and are not able to stop his opposition to our ministry. To not become frustrated and fall into despair, we have to know the conditions under which we successfully apply our ministry.

I think we need to be realistic and recognize that things are difficult in the present age. Though we have our Salvation secure, we need to remain on our guard until Satan is actually bound.

We may speculate about whether mortal humanity continues to live on the planet after Christ comes. But the important thing is to recognize where we are today, so that we are able to fulfill our ministries. Let's be united about that?

Amill doesn't reject any responsibility when it comes to preaching the Gospel in this age. We preach a repent or perish gospel as we should. The danger comes from premills who preach a repent and maybe perish, second chance gospel when Jesus comes.
That is not a very good evangelical thing to do as it takes away the urgency in which people should repent. Today if you hear his voice do not be like your forefathers.


12 Take care, brothers and sisters, that there not be in any one of you a wicked, unbelieving heart [which refuses to trust and rely on the Lord, a heart] that turns away from the living God. 13 But continually encourage one another every day, as long as it is called “Today” [and there is an opportunity], so that none of you will be hardened [into settled rebellion] by the deceitfulness of sin [its cleverness, delusive glamour, and sophistication]. 14 For we [believers] have become partakers of Christ [sharing in all that the Messiah has for us], if only we hold firm our newborn confidence [which originally led us to Him] until the end,

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amill doesn't reject any responsibility when it comes to preaching the Gospel in this age. We preach a repent or perish gospel as we should. The danger comes from premills who preach a repent and maybe perish, second chance gospel when Jesus comes.
That is not a very good evangelical thing to do as it takes away the urgency in people should repent.

Great point! It is clearly Premil that teaches dangerous things to people, not Amil.

Today if you hear his voice do not be like your forefathers.


12 Take care, brothers and sisters, that there not be in any one of you a wicked, unbelieving heart [which refuses to trust and rely on the Lord, a heart] that turns away from the living God. 13 But continually encourage one another every day, as long as it is called “Today” [and there is an opportunity], so that none of you will be hardened [into settled rebellion] by the deceitfulness of sin [its cleverness, delusive glamour, and sophistication]. 14 For we [believers] have become partakers of Christ [sharing in all that the Messiah has for us], if only we hold firm our newborn confidence [which originally led us to Him] until the end,

Amen. The idea that anyone will get a second chance to repent once Christ returns is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Premil teaches that some who don't know God and don't obey the gospel will get a second chance to repent when Christ returns, but scripture teaches that Jesus will be taking vengeance on them and punishing them "with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" when He returns. Today is the day of salvation, not tomorrow or some other time in the future.

 

[jeffweeder]

Great point! It is clearly Premil that teaches dangerous things to people, not Amil.

Amen. The idea that anyone will get a second chance to repent once Christ returns is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Premil teaches that some who don't know God and don't obey the gospel will get a second chance to repent when Christ returns, but scripture teaches that Jesus will be taking vengeance on them and punishing them "with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" when He returns. Today is the day of salvation, not tomorrow or some other time in the future.

Yes absolutely.
Better not put off what you can do today. Only Amill gives you no wiggle room. We are the unbelieving world's best friend. No complacency allowed, no sit on the fence and wait and see until Jesus comes. Surely a future millennium will be full of phonies with that attitude.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, does a physical nation need to be restored in order to fulfill this prophecy or can it be a spiritual Israel that is fully restored. If we arnt physical Israelites, but we are spiritual Israelites and we are part of the same original fold, having the same Shepherd, why wouldn’t our completeness (fullness of nations and veil removed from Jews) be a restoration and fulfill the prophecy?

Not looking to argue. Just inquiring your thoughts. Thanks

Yes, I believe the way God made the promise to Abraham, that he would be the physical father of a nation of physical descendants, indicate that Israel must be the physical nation that is both created and restored forever. But to say there is a dichotomy between physical Israel and spiritual Israel isn't in the works, and never was.

God *always* meant for Israel to be a nation of faith, and to thus be a *spiritual nation.* To not be spiritual is to fall away from the national calling.

Abraham had more than this one promise of a nation of physical descendants, however. He was also promised a spiritual fatherhood, producing, via the Gospel, many nations of faith. I believe Christian nations fulfilled this promise, just as Israel fulfilled God's promise to Abraham to have a nation of faith consisting of his own descendants.

The problem is, both Israel and the Christian nations inevitably fail in the present age, due to the presence of sin everywhere, and also due to the influence of Satan. The least little leaven, and it leavens the whole lump, ie the entire nation.

So quite often, at the end of this process of creating nations of faith they ultimately are left with small national remnants of faith, just as there continues to be for Israel at this present day. All of the Christian nations, and in fact all nations, have remnants of Christians.

But I believe God wanted entire Christian societies to ensure the safety and increase of the Christian testimony, and also for the purpose of social justice. It is not imposed upon a society that doesn't want it, but happens when the majority in a society embrace it. But as I said, after time, eventually national majorities reject the Christian idea.

I'm not argumentative about it either. All sincere thoughts are welcome.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Amill doesn't reject any responsibility when it comes to preaching the Gospel in this age. We preach a repent or perish gospel as we should. The danger comes from premills who preach a repent and maybe perish, second chance gospel when Jesus comes.
That is not a very good evangelical thing to do as it takes away the urgency in which people should repent. Today if you hear his voice do not be like your forefathers.


12 Take care, brothers and sisters, that there not be in any one of you a wicked, unbelieving heart [which refuses to trust and rely on the Lord, a heart] that turns away from the living God. 13 But continually encourage one another every day, as long as it is called “Today” [and there is an opportunity], so that none of you will be hardened [into settled rebellion] by the deceitfulness of sin [its cleverness, delusive glamour, and sophistication]. 14 For we [believers] have become partakers of Christ [sharing in all that the Messiah has for us], if only we hold firm our newborn confidence [which originally led us to Him] until the end,

Both are true--mercy for the repentant and judgment for the unrepentant, patience for the deceived and rejection for the hard-hearted. I'm sure both problems exist in all groups. But I'm speaking of the anti-Semitic people that I hear from those who reject physical Israel as still in covenant with God. All groups who are of this belief have a tendency towards condemning Jews who are deceived simply because they are Jews.

 

[Truth7t7]

Both are true--mercy for the repentant and judgment for the unrepentant, patience for the deceived and rejection for the hard-hearted. I'm sure both problems exist in all groups. But I'm speaking of the anti-Semitic people that I hear from those who reject physical Israel as still in covenant with God. All groups who are of this belief have a tendency towards condemning Jews who are deceived simply because they are Jews.

There ya go again, if anyone disagrees with Randy's Zionist teachings they instantly become Anti-Semetic

Sorta like liberal democrats shouting "Racist" at conservatives who disagree

God has no covenant with a "Nation Israel" as you teach, there is one covenant between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is absolutely false. I am an Amillennialist and believe God wants all people, including all Jews, to be saved. So, I believe in evangelizing all people, including all Jews. How am I closing my heart to backslidden Jews with my belief? I'm not. I'm very tired of how Amil gets misrepresented on this forum.

All I'm saying is that *in my experience* those who reject the Jewish People as no longer under a covenant relationship with God tend to be somewhat hostile to Jews. This causes the Jews to reject Christian evangelization because these Christians are not a good witness to them of the love of God.

I've seen this *all my life* from Pat Brooks to Jim McKeever. I've had close friends change their view on Israel's covenant relationship with God and instantly turn to a Jew-hating conspiracy theorist. (Consider Luther's "Against the Jews and their Lies" material!)

That may not be you, and I trust not. I just worry about this connection between denying Israel's inheritance and Anti-Semitic rhetoric. I'm glad you say you're not there.

Amillennialism does not deny that we have to be spiritually alert and aware of Satan's schemes. Amillennialism does NOT teach that Satan's binding entails making him completely incapacitated, as Premils believe. If Amil did teach that then you would have a point here because that would mean we were leading people astray in thinking that they don't need to worry about Satan. But, Amil does not teach that at all.

It isn't just Amills--it's big in the Faith and Dominion movements. They believe that they are bringing in the Kingdom--a *present* Kingdom concept, similar to what Amills believe. This leads some to political-Christian movements that are Far Right and oppressive, or in some cases to idealistic beliefs that in the end do not pan out.

We cannot "cast Satan out of the world," though we may indeed exercise exorcism. We cannot make the world Christian, not if we have all the faith in the world. God has placed limits on what we can do in the present age. Satan will be completely subdued in the next age, I believe.

If you have a clear doctrine that takes Satan's power seriously, power to you! I'm happy you won't be deceived. That's all I'm concerned about--not labeling Amills.

Amil emphasizes the power and majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us which gives us authority over Satan and our spiritual enemies. It doesn't mean we take them lightly, it just means we recognize the authority we have in Christ. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, right? Amils believe that wholeheartedly. Satan can't keep us from doing anything if we resist him and keep our focus on Christ. We believe that the gospel has been hugely successful in the New Testament time period which has resulted in MANY people being saved. A far higher percentage of people than in Old Testament times. We believe Satan needed to be bound in order for that to be the case.

As I said, we walk by the Spirit and cannot be blotted out of Christ's book of life if we center our faith on Christ. Satan cannot inflict anything on us that God doesn't let him.

But as I said, we need to know the limitations God has imposed on His Kingdom in the current age. Then our expectations will fit reality, and we can carry on our ministries with confidence.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There ya go again, if anyone disagrees with Randy's Zionist teachings they instantly become Anti-Semetic

Sorta like liberal democrats shouting "Racist" at conservatives who disagree

God has no covenant with a "Nation Israel" as you teach, there is one covenant between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"!

You are one of those in danger of Anti-Semitism. And in some ways you're in danger of Anti-Christianity as well. You attack me, a Christian, pretty regularly.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are one of those in danger of Anti-Semitism. And in some ways you're in danger of Anti-Christianity as well. You attack me, a Christian, pretty regularly.

Your claims of Truth7t7 attacking you are false, your Zionist teachings are exposed as being false, just as liberal democrats shouting out "Racist" on conservatives, you shout "Anti-Semetism" and "Personal Attacks" to silence any person who disagrees with your Zionist teachings

God has no covenant with a "Nation Israel" as you teach, there is one covenant between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"!

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

All I'm saying is that *in my experience* those who reject the Jewish People as no longer under a covenant relationship with God tend to be somewhat hostile to Jews. This causes the Jews to reject Christian evangelization because these Christians are not a good witness to them of the love of God.

I've seen this *all my life* from Pat Brooks to Jim McKeever. I've had close friends change their view on Israel's covenant relationship with God and instantly turn to a Jew-hating conspiracy theorist. (Consider Luther's "Against the Jews and their Lies" material!)

That may not be you, and I trust not. I just worry about this connection between denying Israel's inheritance and Anti-Semitic rhetoric. I'm glad you say you're not there.



It isn't just Amills--it's big in the Faith and Dominion movements. They believe that they are bringing in the Kingdom--a *present* Kingdom concept, similar to what Amills believe. This leads some to political-Christian movements that are Far Right and oppressive, or in some cases to idealistic beliefs that in the end do not pan out.

We cannot "cast Satan out of the world," though we may indeed exercise exorcism. We cannot make the world Christian, not if we have all the faith in the world. God has placed limits on what we can do in the present age. Satan will be completely subdued in the next age, I believe.

If you have a clear doctrine that takes Satan's power seriously, power to you! I'm happy you won't be deceived. That's all I'm concerned about--not labeling Amills.



As I said, we walk by the Spirit and cannot be blotted out of Christ's book of life if we center our faith on Christ. Satan cannot inflict anything on us that God doesn't let him.

But as I said, we need to know the limitations God has imposed on His Kingdom in the current age. Then our expectations will fit reality, and we can carry on our ministries with confidence.

Ahmil has nothing to do with the faith-dominion movement that you label as oppressive

The church has been delivered from Satan's kingdom, and now partakes in the kingdom of God "Presently"

Colossians 1:13-14KJV
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

 

[ewq1938]

Rather, it's about ignoring the underlying beliefs of Premillennialism, which requires acceptance of a literal Millennial Age in which the nation Israel is restored.

Just wanted to state not all Premills think this way. The OT Israel is no longer the chosen people of God. That has shifted to Christians, of all races. They are today's Israel. This is something most Amills will agree with.

The old Israel isn't going to be restored, not in the future Millennium or anytime. Those that reject Christ are gentiles even if they have DNA from the old tribes of Israel.

 

[farouk]

Ahmil has nothing to do with the faith-dominion movement that you label as oppressive

The church has been delivered from Satan's kingdom, and now partakes in the kingdom of God "Presently"

Colossians 1:13-14KJV
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Soteria = deliverance means salvation in Greek.......

 

[Randy Kluth]

Just wanted to state not all Premills think this way. The OT Israel is no longer the chosen people of God. That has shifted to Christians, of all races. They are today's Israel. This is something most Amills will agree with.

The old Israel isn't going to be restored, not in the future Millennium or anytime. Those that reject Christ are gentiles even if they have DNA from the old tribes of Israel.

Yes, that's true. Thanks.