the real danger of Amillism

[Randy Kluth]

Ahmil has nothing to do with the faith-dominion movement that you label as oppressive

HERE:
Amillennialism and Dominionism fits “like a hand in a glove”, says C. Peter Wagner, head apostle from the New Apostolic Reformation.

Your claims of Truth7t7 attacking you are false, your Zionist teachings are exposed as being false, just as liberal democrats shouting out "Racist" on conservatives, you shout "Anti-Semetism" and "Personal Attacks" to silence any person who disagrees with your Zionist teachings

God has no covenant with a "Nation Israel" as you teach, there is one covenant between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"!

Jesus Is The Lord

Rom 4.13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Truth7t7 should stop attacking his brother Randy. ;) Perhaps his attacks on Randy are not real, but are just a "fairy tale?"

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your claims of Truth7t7 attacking you are false...

Maybe your regular claims that my theology is a "fairy tale" are just friendly slaps on the back? I should hope they are not meant to be provocative, but I know the *truth.*

 

[Truth7t7]

HERE:
Amillennialism and Dominionism fits “like a hand in a glove”, says C. Peter Wagner, head apostle from the New Apostolic Reformation.



Rom 4.13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Truth7t7 should stop attacking his brother Randy. ;) Perhaps his attacks on Randy are not real, but are just a "fairy tale?"

C. Peter Wagner, the cult of the "Latter Rain" movement

The Ole roll on the floor Ontario Blessing and Brownsville Revival, Wagner was a phony in Benny Hinn style!

 

[Truth7t7]

Maybe your regular claims that my theology is a "fairy tale" are just friendly slaps on the back? I should hope they are not meant to be provocative, but I know the *truth.*

Should I claim your false Zionist teachings are truth, not a chance!

Calling your Zionist teachings a fairy tale is being nice, God has one covenant with man, the shed blood upon Calvary

Your claim God has an existing covenant with "National Israel" is "False", "A Fairy Tale" "Malarkey" "Fantasy Land" take your pick

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[No Pre-TB]

I believe the way God made the promise to Abraham,

Randy, it’s interesting that you said that. Paul told us we are his seed, not fleshly Israel (Galatians 3:29). The promises on faith, not the flesh. (Romans 4:16) Christ told the Pharisees their father wasn’t Abraham (John 8:39-44) because of their works. They were blinded.

If we are grafted into spiritual Israel, and the promises are by spiritual faith, and a spiritual Jew is one that is circumcised in the heart - do you see promises not shared by split by flesh and blood? Though flesh and blood and dna matter not in the kingdom of God..Will the Jew that believes be rewarded? Yes. Will we? Yes. Does a national Israel need to exist to fulfill the promise? Or is it a people of faith that is needed?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, it’s interesting that you said that. Paul told us we are his seed, not fleshly Israel (Galatians 3:29). The promises on faith, not the flesh. (Romans 4:16) Christ told the Pharisees their father wasn’t Abraham (John 8:39-44)

If we are grafted into spiritual Israel, and the promises are by spiritual faith, and a spiritual Jew is one that is circumcised in the heart - do you see promises not shared by split by flesh and blood? Though flesh and blood and dna matter not in the kingdom of God..Will the Jew that believes be rewarded? Yes. Will we? Yes. Does a national Israel need to exist to fulfill the promise? Or is it a people of faith that is needed?

Let me ask you this? Will you be happy if God tells you He isn't interested in your flesh and blood children--only in other people's children who are Christians? Wouldn't you want God to provide you with Christian children of your own?

That's the way it was with Abraham. God loved Abraham and promised him his own believing children--children of faith. God went farther than this by promising Abraham children of faith outside of his flesh and blood children as well, because the principle was higher than human DNA--it had to do with providing children for God, as well.

So there is no division between our flesh and blood children and God's spiritual children if we are promised our own children will be children of faith. Paul taught that flesh and blood children of Abraham do not make them spiritual children of Abraham. The children promised to Abraham were not just natural descendants but also spiritual descendants. Do you see what I mean?

What we need to understand is that if God promised Abraham he would have his own flesh and blood children of faith that doesn't mean he would *only have* children of faith. We know that Abraham had an assortment of descendants, some of whom had faith and some of whom did not have faith. And NT teaching teaches the principle based on this reality, that those who are natural descendants, if they don't have faith, aren't the children of faith promised to Abraham.

 

[Randy Kluth]

C. Peter Wagner, the cult of the "Latter Rain" movement

The Ole roll on the floor Ontario Blessing and Brownsville Revival, Wagner was a phony in Benny Hinn style!

Funny how you think a response like this faces the issue? Clearly, a major figure in the Latter Rain/Apostolic Reformation movement believed Amill and Dominionism are essentially the same in some ways.

You said the exact opposite. Regardless of whether you agree with him, who would be more likely to understand this?

 

[Davy]

Randy, it’s interesting that you said that. Paul told us we are his seed, not fleshly Israel (Galatians 3:29). The promises on faith, not the flesh. (Romans 4:16) Christ told the Pharisees their father wasn’t Abraham (John 8:39-44) because of their works. They were blinded.

If we are grafted into spiritual Israel, and the promises are by spiritual faith, and a spiritual Jew is one that is circumcised in the heart - do you see promises not shared by split by flesh and blood? Though flesh and blood and dna matter not in the kingdom of God..Will the Jew that believes be rewarded? Yes. Will we? Yes. Does a national Israel need to exist to fulfill the promise? Or is it a people of faith that is needed?

ISRAEL per God's Word is the Salvation name, the name of Christ's Kingdom based on Faith. It's not about a flesh salvation as Apostle Paul showed in Romans 9 when he taught the spiritual Israel concept for believing Gentiles.

If brethren in Christ would simply go back to study their Old Testament history and prophecies they might understand how this is concerning the new name Israel which God gave to 'believing' Jacob during his dream. And what did Jacob do when he awoke? Jacob got up and said, "Surely the LORD is in this place". Then he took the stone and set it upright, and poured oil upon it, and called the name of that place Bethel, which means 'house of God' This is why Jacob's pillar stone is also called the Bethel Stone, because wherever it is, it represents the House of God. And it is also called the 'Shepherd's Stone' because of the prophecy 'smite the shepherd' about the time of Christ's crucifixion. Thus that pillar stone is directly connected to Christ and Christianity.

That name Israel as Jacob's new name was to represent the Faith that Abraham first believed, and was counted to him as righteousness, which is the same Faith we have in Christ Jesus, according to Paul in Galatians 3 and Romans 4.

Thus the name ISRAEL per God's Word is not for the 'unbeliever', but for those in Christ Jesus. And that name Israel will continue into Christ's future Kingdom when His 12 Apostles are given 12 thrones to sit over the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[Keraz]

Thus the name ISRAEL per God's Word is not for the 'unbeliever', but for those in Christ Jesus

WE Christians are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16
Those who falsely call themselves 'Israel', face punishment, along with all the ungodly peoples in the Middle East. Jeremiah 12:14

 

[Christian Gedge]

All I'm saying is that *in my experience* those who reject the Jewish People as no longer under a covenant relationship with God tend to be somewhat hostile to Jews.

Not me Randy. There is only one covenant now and that is the ’New Covenant’, and my prayer is that the Jews find it. Why can’t we simply interpret Romans 11 as a prophesied New Covenant revival similar to some of the great revival‘s God has bestowed on various Gentile nations over history?

 

[Marty fox]

All I'm saying is that *in my experience* those who reject the Jewish People as no longer under a covenant relationship with God tend to be somewhat hostile to Jews. This causes the Jews to reject Christian evangelization because these Christians are not a good witness to them of the love of God.

I've seen this *all my life* from Pat Brooks to Jim McKeever. I've had close friends change their view on Israel's covenant relationship with God and instantly turn to a Jew-hating conspiracy theorist. (Consider Luther's "Against the Jews and their Lies" material!)

That may not be you, and I trust not. I just worry about this connection between denying Israel's inheritance and Anti-Semitic rhetoric. I'm glad you say you're not there.



It isn't just Amills--it's big in the Faith and Dominion movements. They believe that they are bringing in the Kingdom--a *present* Kingdom concept, similar to what Amills believe. This leads some to political-Christian movements that are Far Right and oppressive, or in some cases to idealistic beliefs that in the end do not pan out.

We cannot "cast Satan out of the world," though we may indeed exercise exorcism. We cannot make the world Christian, not if we have all the faith in the world. God has placed limits on what we can do in the present age. Satan will be completely subdued in the next age, I believe.

If you have a clear doctrine that takes Satan's power seriously, power to you! I'm happy you won't be deceived. That's all I'm concerned about--not labeling Amills.



As I said, we walk by the Spirit and cannot be blotted out of Christ's book of life if we center our faith on Christ. Satan cannot inflict anything on us that God doesn't let him.

But as I said, we need to know the limitations God has imposed on His Kingdom in the current age. Then our expectations will fit reality, and we can carry on our ministries with confidence.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

What would sooner disappear?

They can’t be under a covenant relationship with God our only relationship with God now is through Jesus.

 

[Truth7t7]

Funny how you think a response like this faces the issue? Clearly, a major figure in the Latter Rain/Apostolic Reformation movement believed Amill and Dominionism are essentially the same in some ways.

You said the exact opposite. Regardless of whether you agree with him, who would be more likely to understand this?

I'm concerned Randy, next you will be quoting Jimmy Swaggart or Jimmy Jones as authority :)

 

[Truth7t7]

HERE:
Amillennialism and Dominionism fits “like a hand in a glove”, says C. Peter Wagner, head apostle from the New Apostolic Reformation.



Rom 4.13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Truth7t7 should stop attacking his brother Randy. ;) Perhaps his attacks on Randy are not real, but are just a "fairy tale?"

There you go again with false claims of personal attacks, Randy is trying to silence the opposition who is exposing his Zionist teachings that don't exist in scripture, it sounds just like liberal democrats screaming "Racist" at conservatives that disagree with them

God has no "National Covenant" with "Israel" as you falsely believe and teach, there is one covenant that exist between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"!

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Davy]

Not me Randy. There is only one covenant now and that is the ’New Covenant’, and my prayer is that the Jews find it. Why can’t we simply interpret Romans 11 as a prophesied New Covenant revival similar to some of the great revival‘s God has bestowed on various Gentile nations over history?

What Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about God having 'blinded' the unbelieving Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles needs to be heeded by all Christian believers. This means when Jesus returns their 'blindness' God put upon them will be removed, and then they will be able to convert to Christ Jesus.

But it also needs to be understood per Bible history, that not all of those who 'claim' to be bloodline Jews actually are. This because many foreigners of the nations crept in among the Jews throughout Israel's history. King Herod was a Jew, but he actually was not a bloodline Jew, because Herod was born of Esau, Jacob's brother. And some of the Canaanites which Israel was not able to destroy per God's commanded were left and dwelt among Israel and became religious Jews. So we cannot say those were blinded like the ones Paul pointed to that will be saved per Romans 11.

 

[Davy]

WE Christians are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16
Those who falsely call themselves 'Israel', face punishment, along with all the ungodly peoples in the Middle East. Jeremiah 12:14

Read my post #34.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

What would sooner disappear?

They can’t be under a covenant relationship with God our only relationship with God now is through Jesus.

I had thought of this, and wondered if I need to respond to the matter? I never really explained because we all know Israel failed under the Covenant of Law. I do believe it was superseded by Christ's New Covenant.

So what I'm saying may or may not make sense to you, depending on your definitions and theological presuppositions. I believe the Covenant God gave to Israel in one sense was eternal, and in another sense was temporal. I believe the temporal Law was intended to present a progression leading to the eternal Covenant of Christ.

So when I reflect upon Israel still being under "covenant" with God, I'm not saying they are still under the Covenant of Law. I'm definitely not saying that. I've had Reform Theology all of my life, and I'm not remotely Catholic in viewing the need to participate in Christian institutions and traditions to supplement my Salvation.

So what am I saying? I'm saying that God's intention with his temporal covenant was intended to lead to the eternal covenant because the covenant He started with Israel was based on eternal promises. As I quoted to someone else, the promises were not based on work, but on faith in God.

And so, what was promised is good for anybody who believes. And that includes Abraham and his descendants, including the nation of Israel. If they began under the Covenant of Law, they could exercise faith and enter into the eternal promise that led to Christ's eternal covenant. Israel's covenant promises were and are eternal, in my opinion. Be happy to hear your thoughts on that?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not me Randy. There is only one covenant now and that is the ’New Covenant’, and my prayer is that the Jews find it. Why can’t we simply interpret Romans 11 as a prophesied New Covenant revival similar to some of the great revival‘s God has bestowed on various Gentile nations over history?

We can. I think you have a great attitude, my friend. Having the right spirit is more important, I think, than either of us being right on Amil/Premil/or no Mil. ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

There you go again with false claims of personal attacks, Randy is trying to silence the opposition who is exposing his Zionist teachings that don't exist in scripture, it sounds just like liberal democrats screaming "Racist" at conservatives that disagree with them

God has no "National Covenant" with "Israel" as you falsely believe and teach, there is one covenant that exist between God and man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"!

Jesus Is The Lord

No, I'm happy to hear the "opposition." The more discussion, the more refined, hopefully, we get. I don't want less conversation--I want *more* conversation. But yea, I do wish we'd get off the extracurricular commentary. We need to set a good friendly tone, you think?

 

[Truth7t7]

I had thought of this, and wondered if I need to respond to the matter? I never really explained because we all know Israel failed under the Covenant of Law. I do believe it was superseded by Christ's New Covenant.

So what I'm saying may or may not make sense to you, depending on your definitions and theological presuppositions. I believe the Covenant God gave to Israel in one sense was eternal, and in another sense was temporal. I believe the temporal Law was intended to present a progression leading to the eternal Covenant of Christ.

So when I reflect upon Israel still being under "covenant" with God, I'm not saying they are still under the Covenant of Law. I'm definitely not saying that. I've had Reform Theology all of my life, and I'm not remotely Catholic in viewing the need to participate in Christian institutions and traditions to supplement my Salvation.

So what am I saying? I'm saying that God's intention with his temporal covenant was intended to lead to the eternal covenant because the covenant He started with Israel was based on eternal promises. As I quoted to someone else, the promises were not based on work, but on faith in God.

And so, what was promised is good for anybody who believes. And that includes Abraham and his descendants, including the nation of Israel. If they began under the Covenant of Law, they could exercise faith and enter into the eternal promise that led to Christ's eternal covenant. Israel's covenant promises were and are eternal, in my opinion. Be happy to hear your thoughts on that?

Scripture clearly teaches the "Remnant Jew" will be saved and added to the Church on earth, they are no longer "Ethnic Israel" they become saved "Church" where there isn't Jew or Greek, hope that helps :)

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm concerned Randy, next you will be quoting Jimmy Swaggart or Jimmy Jones as authority :)

I thought Swaggart many years ago had some very spiritual, very pleasing worship music. I don't hate him because he was weak sexually. I think that's something most men have had to deal with. I never did like Swaggart's judgmentalism, though. He was hostile towards Christian Rockers like Larry Norman, and I don't think he had any business judging another person's ministry. Perhaps that's why God let him fall?

I'm a Pentecostal, brother. I'm not ashamed of it. What are you?

For what it's worth, I don't care for the dog barking Pentecostals, and I don't believe we all need to speak in tongues. That being said, I'm really high on living by the Spirit, if we can only put our carnality under our feet. Easier said than done. I think it helps to ask God for spiritual gifts. You never know what He might surprise you with?