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Ahhh... The Greek for falling away is apostasia.... Another word for apostasy. Nothing to do with the rapture!
The pre-tribulational rapture
- Thread starter oliver
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Then why was it translated "departure/departing" until the KJV came along? "apostasy" is an English word coined by borrowing directly from the Greek word "apostasia"; it is one possible meaning, but plain "departure" is another possible meaning, and one that makes better sense in the context.
You wouldn't listen anyway, so why should I waste my time?
Makes more sense? Jesus said that many would fall away from the faith in the end times and therefore would be biblically consistent to believe that when Paul mentions an apostasy, he's talking about the defection from the faith that Jesus had already said would happen. It only makes better sense to you because it supports your doctrine.
You might want to give Galatians 3:28-29 a study, too.
TWC:
I won't heed poorly argued stuff which is a mix of bare assertion and blatant eisegesis. If you have sound biblical arguments, that would be another matter.
"Departure" makes more sense, because it is being used as a sign to show the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord cannot yet have started. A sign has to be a distinct and identifiable event. A vague term like "falling away" does not fit the bill.
I won't heed poorly argued stuff which is a mix of bare assertion and blatant eisegesis. If you have sound biblical arguments, that would be another matter.
"Departure" makes more sense, because it is being used as a sign to show the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord cannot yet have started. A sign has to be a distinct and identifiable event. A vague term like "falling away" does not fit the bill.
What are the implications of whether or not the verse implies an apostasy (Falling away?), verses a literal departure, or some mix of both? I'm asking because I'm curious, not implying my views here. But it could help to discuss it. Let's have at it and see what logical train each leads to.
A distinct and identifiable event? You mean like wars and rumors of wars, nations rising against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, famines, persecution, and the rise of false prophets? You ask for a sound biblical argument, but we both know that you aren't going to accept it unless it says what you want it to say. The book of Colossians is addressed to the saints in Christ at Colossae of whom Paul also refers to as the elect. Paul's words about the "apostasia" in 2 Thessalonians 2 line up with Christ's words in Matthew 24. That's not bare assertion or eisegesis, that's context. Redefining words to suit your doctrine on the other hand...
I love your line about how the KJV translators mistranslated apostasia because they were unaware of the pretribulation rapture doctrine. That may have been because the doctrine hadn't been invented yet.
Not invented but discovered. The whole realm of eschatology had been in obscurity since the church became part of the Roman state and prophecies that the emperor and his government would be destroyed by the judgement of God became ... unwelcome.
The prophecy of Daniel says, "But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” (12:4) and "I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end." (12:8-9)
That clearly implies that full understanding of eschatological prophecy would not be given until near the end.
+++
As for the various signs you mention from Matt 24, these are described as "the beginning of birth pangs". "Nation against nation and city against city" is a prophecy of the world wars. The point of describing them as the beginning of labour pains is to make people understand that they are NOT direct signs of the end but only of preparatory movements. False prophets were already beginning to arise in apostolic times.
But in 2 Thess 2 Paul gives two events which must precede the Day of the Lord, in order to reassure his readers that the Day has not yet come. The revealing of the man of sin is one specific event; it is very likely indeed that the other event is also specific. The translation "departure" is available and was used up until the 17th century.
The implications of the two translations, martinawrencescott, are that one gives a vague and unidentifiable sign and the other gives a clear and incontrovertible one. However, very many pretribulationists accept the KJV translation, and it does not make a difference because there are plenty of other lines of support for that interpretation of the scriptures. I have enumerated some of them above, and so far, hardly anyone is addressing the majority of them.
The prophecy of Daniel says, "But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” (12:4) and "I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end." (12:8-9)
That clearly implies that full understanding of eschatological prophecy would not be given until near the end.
+++
As for the various signs you mention from Matt 24, these are described as "the beginning of birth pangs". "Nation against nation and city against city" is a prophecy of the world wars. The point of describing them as the beginning of labour pains is to make people understand that they are NOT direct signs of the end but only of preparatory movements. False prophets were already beginning to arise in apostolic times.
But in 2 Thess 2 Paul gives two events which must precede the Day of the Lord, in order to reassure his readers that the Day has not yet come. The revealing of the man of sin is one specific event; it is very likely indeed that the other event is also specific. The translation "departure" is available and was used up until the 17th century.
The implications of the two translations, martinawrencescott, are that one gives a vague and unidentifiable sign and the other gives a clear and incontrovertible one. However, very many pretribulationists accept the KJV translation, and it does not make a difference because there are plenty of other lines of support for that interpretation of the scriptures. I have enumerated some of them above, and so far, hardly anyone is addressing the majority of them.
Oliver wrote:
" That clearly implies that full understanding of eschatological prophecy would not be given until near the end. "
I expect that is, not only the reason for the seals, but also the reason the seals are opened. So we are in agreement.
" That clearly implies that full understanding of eschatological prophecy would not be given until near the end. "
I expect that is, not only the reason for the seals, but also the reason the seals are opened. So we are in agreement.
Hi Oliver, Your words: "The translation "departure" is available and was used up until the 17th century."
If the word "departure" was used than it wasn't meant to signify a rapture but rather a "departure from the faith" in keeping with the meaning of "apostasia".
If the word "departure" was used than it wasn't meant to signify a rapture but rather a "departure from the faith" in keeping with the meaning of "apostasia".
There are three meanings of apostasia: defection, departure and distance. Defection and departure do not have the same meaning.
Nobody ever answers the objection, how can you tell what level of rebellion or apostasy will fulfil the sign?
Nobody ever answers the objection, how can you tell what level of rebellion or apostasy will fulfil the sign?
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Hi Oliver.
2 events must precede the Lords coming and our gathering together to him.
How can one of those events be our gathering to him (the rapture)?
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, [sup]2 [/sup]that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. [sup]3 [/sup]Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,
Hi Oliver, I think it will be obvious when it occurs. It won't be a trickle and it's not catholicism or the general state of the church. We'll know it when we see it. I think it will be sudden, caused by an event, and it will be quite large in scale, imo.
TWC ... trying to validate your claims by saying it is nausating? Believe me or this will make me sick? I agree with Oliver tis but... elephant hurling.
Howerver, there are many reasons for a mid term rapture... the first half of tribulation is a time of bounty as the beast trys to buy the world. to have the rapture take place after armageddon serves no purpose. Consider Daniel 12:12 it is the only place God gives a writtren Blessing to those that curse him... and those left behind...becasue a rapture had just taken place. consider that.
Even in scripture one uses to attempt to prove a pre-trib rapture somes light showiung a mid-term in its stead.
One claims be prepared... I agree.. be prepared...not to go in the rapture. Prepare for the worst.. hope for the best....
and the scripture says be caught up in the air with the Lord forever... and they assume they will be in the air forwever with the Lord. But that is not what it says... See Jesus will reign 1000 years on earth.... how will you be in the air with him? Ok, sao one is caught up in the air with the Lord AND one remains with the Lord forever... meaning where he goes we go... so we are not stuck in the air....... simple.
Oh, not understanding what I say will not make me ill.
Howerver, there are many reasons for a mid term rapture... the first half of tribulation is a time of bounty as the beast trys to buy the world. to have the rapture take place after armageddon serves no purpose. Consider Daniel 12:12 it is the only place God gives a writtren Blessing to those that curse him... and those left behind...becasue a rapture had just taken place. consider that.
Even in scripture one uses to attempt to prove a pre-trib rapture somes light showiung a mid-term in its stead.
One claims be prepared... I agree.. be prepared...not to go in the rapture. Prepare for the worst.. hope for the best....
and the scripture says be caught up in the air with the Lord forever... and they assume they will be in the air forwever with the Lord. But that is not what it says... See Jesus will reign 1000 years on earth.... how will you be in the air with him? Ok, sao one is caught up in the air with the Lord AND one remains with the Lord forever... meaning where he goes we go... so we are not stuck in the air....... simple.
Oh, not understanding what I say will not make me ill.
That's a little more than what I said. My point is that while it was well thought out and well written, there were many points made in the OP that run contrary to what the Bible says, and that those who are in agreement with his post may want to exercise some discernment.
There's no prize for winning an argument on a message board. It's important to recognize what we're discussing and debating is very real, and there will be real consequences for those who simply use the Bible as a means for promoting what they've been taught as opposed to those who desire to know the truth that they might be prepared.
TWC:
If that is really so, I want to know exactly how they run contrary to it. I do not wish to teach anything that is not biblical.
jeffweeder:
That is not what the scripture says.
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the apostasia comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
The general subject is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,
The particular concern of the Thessalonians is that the day of the Lord has come.
Paul's reassurance is that that day will not come, unless the apostasia comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,
It is the Day of the Lord that cannot come until those two events occur. If I am correct about the meaning of apostasia, the rapture is one of the two events that necessarily precede the Day of the Lord, which is the whole period of the end times culminating in the return of Jesus Christ to the earth. If the correct translation is "falling away", the moment of the rapture is not so precisely specified, but all the other reasons for thinking that it comes early remain.
The general subject includes our being gathered together to him, but that gathering is then not mentioned -- unless apostasia means the rapture.
terry
Quite right, it isn't. What it does say is that we shall meet the Lord in the air and that he will take us to be with him for ever, starting with the place he has prepared for us in heaven. Afterwards we shall come behind him when he returns to earth.
What will not happen is a pop up and back without ever going to that place prepared for us and the marriage of the Lamb.
If that is really so, I want to know exactly how they run contrary to it. I do not wish to teach anything that is not biblical.
jeffweeder:
That is not what the scripture says.
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the apostasia comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
The general subject is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,
The particular concern of the Thessalonians is that the day of the Lord has come.
Paul's reassurance is that that day will not come, unless the apostasia comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,
It is the Day of the Lord that cannot come until those two events occur. If I am correct about the meaning of apostasia, the rapture is one of the two events that necessarily precede the Day of the Lord, which is the whole period of the end times culminating in the return of Jesus Christ to the earth. If the correct translation is "falling away", the moment of the rapture is not so precisely specified, but all the other reasons for thinking that it comes early remain.
The general subject includes our being gathered together to him, but that gathering is then not mentioned -- unless apostasia means the rapture.
terry
Quite right, it isn't. What it does say is that we shall meet the Lord in the air and that he will take us to be with him for ever, starting with the place he has prepared for us in heaven. Afterwards we shall come behind him when he returns to earth.
What will not happen is a pop up and back without ever going to that place prepared for us and the marriage of the Lamb.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Im confused......I agree that the subject is about the coming of the Lord..and our gathering to him.
This day will not come until the apostasy or departure takes place.........So that means our gathering to him (rapture) will happen after the departure and man of sin has taken place. How then can departure / apostasy refer to the rapture?
The son of man comes in a flame of fire to destroy the apostasy and man of sin in v 8.........
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
At the appearance of his coming we will then be gathered unto the Lord after the man of sin has been revealed and departure and apostasy of the faith has taken place.
When the Son of Man comes will he find Faith on the earth ... ?
Hi Oliver, Your words: "What will not happen is a pop up and back without ever going to that place prepared for us and the marriage of the Lamb."
I know you utilize this a lot but the whole church is the bride thing is highly questionable as there are zero verses in the bible that outright say the church is the bride of Christ. It's based on assumptions and allegories and similies.
I know you utilize this a lot but the whole church is the bride thing is highly questionable as there are zero verses in the bible that outright say the church is the bride of Christ. It's based on assumptions and allegories and similies.
Trekson, then who is the bride of Christ?
jeffweeder, it isn't clear what is confusing you. I am guessing that you see the rapture happening simultaneously with "the appearance of his coming" If that is so, it is a false equation. When Jesus takes his church and meets us in the air; he does not yet come to earth. His "coming" means his coming to earth.
jeffweeder, it isn't clear what is confusing you. I am guessing that you see the rapture happening simultaneously with "the appearance of his coming" If that is so, it is a false equation. When Jesus takes his church and meets us in the air; he does not yet come to earth. His "coming" means his coming to earth.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
How do you see this as a false equation, when you said yourself that the general subject was about his coming and our gathering to him.
Surely you see that our gathering to him is about the rapture. Before this day happens we are told of a apostasy/departure and the man of sin revealed. Once revealed the Son comes to destroy and similtaneously Gather us.
2Thess 1 clearly shows the Lord Jesus coming in a flame of fire to eternally condemn those who reject the Gospel on the day he glorifies all who have believed with resurection and rapture.
[sup]6[/sup][sup]][/sup]For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, [sup]7 [/sup]and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well[sup] [/sup]when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, [sup]8 [/sup]dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [sup]9 [/sup]These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [sup]10 [/sup]when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
Yes, our gathering to him is the rapture.
Our gathering to him occurs before or at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. This is the departure. We are gathered out of the world before he sends his judgement on it.
When the Lord comes to be glorified in his saints, the word "saints" encompasses more then the church. It also includes all those who died before the church existed and those who hold the faith of Christ after the church is removed.
I just noticed another parallel between the judgement of the flood and the rapture.
Noah went into the ark 7 days before the flood came and the Lord closed the door on him. That parallels the 7 years during which the church is removed into the bridal chamber before the flood of judgement on the world. In dealing with judgements, a day in the type stands for a year.
Our gathering to him occurs before or at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. This is the departure. We are gathered out of the world before he sends his judgement on it.
When the Lord comes to be glorified in his saints, the word "saints" encompasses more then the church. It also includes all those who died before the church existed and those who hold the faith of Christ after the church is removed.
I just noticed another parallel between the judgement of the flood and the rapture.
Noah went into the ark 7 days before the flood came and the Lord closed the door on him. That parallels the 7 years during which the church is removed into the bridal chamber before the flood of judgement on the world. In dealing with judgements, a day in the type stands for a year.
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