The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[PinSeeker]

...

GOD'S CALL, FAITH, AND SALVATION​

"Faith and works are not the same no matter how hard you try to make that so."​

I'm... not trying to do that at all, Spiritual Israelite. As I've said, our good works are the outward evidence of the faith we have.

"Salvation occurs by grace through faith and it's after that when we start doing the works that God has prepared for us to do."​

This is pretty much exactly what I have said. Wow. Yes, again, our good works are the outward evidence of the faith we have been given.

"Scripture repeatedly refers to "your faith" and "our faith" and not "God's faith", so you're fighting an uphill battle here."​

I'm not "fighting" any such "battle," Spiritual Israelite. Yes, it's our faith. But it's irrefutably the gift of God. Again:

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God Who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He wills" (1 Corinthians 12:4-11).

"We are responsible to humble ourselves and repent of our sins and acknowledge that we can't save ourselves and place our faith in Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior."​

Agreed. Nothing I have said suggests otherwise.

"How is it something to boast about if we willingly choose to humble ourselves and acknowledge that we're sinners in need of a Savior and can't save ourselves?"​

If you say that you've done this all on your own, that you've given yourself faith, you have reason to boast, to praise yourself. You might not actually do so; I'm sure you will probably say you would never do such a thing, and that's great, but really, you would have reason to, and that's what Paul is arguing against there in Ephesians 2:9. And, I'm sure you will remember, What Jesus Himself said in response to His disciples when they asked Him, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:25-26)

"...It isn't as though that just randomly happens. It happens in response to the grace God extends to us..."​

Agreed, as I have said. Nothing God does is random; everything He does is for His own glory. And yes, God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2).

"....which He extends to all people, as Paul said in Titus 2:11."​

The outward call of the Gospel unto salvation is to all people, yes. Paul is very clear on that in Titus 2 and elsewhere, as are other Biblical writers. Sure. But the inward call of God issued by the Holy Spirit in the heart is only issued to those whom God chose before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1), those whom He foreknew, predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, and called (Romans 8:29-30), His elect, which includes Jew and Gentile alike (Romans 9).

"You choose to accept a gift or not. Does anyone force you to accept a gift? Do people shove gifts in your face and tell you have to take them? No. It is offered to you and then you choose whether to accept it or not."​

LOL! You've never refused a Christmas gift, I'm sure, Spiritual Israelite. You may at some point return it and get something else, maybe... "Shove gifts in your face and tell them you have to take them"? Wow. Come on, Spiritual Israelite. With regard to God, I think we're all pretty thankful that He had mercy upon us, right? :)

"You acknowledge yourself that the gift of faith or faithfulness is not something all Christians have."​

I acknowledged no such thing.

"...all Christians have saving faith!"​

Agreed. If they are truly heart-regenerate, if they truly have the Spirit. But not all who merely say they are Christians are truly heart-regenerate Christians, not all who say they are Christians truly have the Spirit; many will... fall away. That was true in the first century church, and it is still true today.

"You can't be a Christian without saving faith!"​

Agreed, but one can say he/she is a Christian ~ one can say anything ~ and not have true saving faith, which is the gift of God.

"Of course. No one here would deny that."​

This is your response to my quoting Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, that God empowers all gifts of His Holy Spirit in Christians as He wills and apportions to each as He wills. And faith ~ yes, our faith ~ is one of those things (verse 9). But yet, you do seem to deny it nevertheless... A curious thing indeed. You seem to say (several times now) that faith is what we manufacture in ourselves and thus meriting of, deserving of God's grace. Grace, Spiritual Israelite, is unmerited ~ not merited; undeserved ~ favor).

"That is something He gives AFTER someone has been saved/born again, not something He gives to make someone saved/born again."​

It's all a one-time thing, really. When we are born again, we are a new creation in Christ. The gifts may take a bit of time to really manifest themselves outwardly, but we have them from the get-go. Like athletic talent... a great athlete is naturally athletic from birth, but nobody realizes it until he/she grows up a bit and goes out on a ball field or court and starts beating everybody, right?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Breaking this up to make it more manageable... :)

FALLING AWAY​

​

"You are not accepting what it actually says."​

And I think the exact same of you, Spiritual Israelite.

"That is a different context than Hebrews 3 and 6."​

It's not; it's very much the same. We disagree.

So, you think those antichrists who John said "went out from us" and were "not of us" are people who John would have called "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" before they "went out from us"? I sure don't. I see no indication of that at all.

"For someone to be among Christians while not being one themselves and then physically leave the group is not a case of falling away. They are not turning away from their faith in Christ. They never put their faith in Christ in the first place."
Spiritual Israelite, we read and hear every day about supposed Christians leaving the church today ~ disavowing the faith they once said they had ~ that it makes our heads spin. This is exactly what was happening then. I'm sure many of these folks will actually say, "Yes, you know, I once believed and had faith, but realized otherwise, and that's why I left the church."

To apostasize has nothing to do with leaving the church after having a false faith. It has to do with having true faith, but then, over time, choosing not to heed warnings such as those given in Hebrews 3:12-14 which can lead to a loss of faith and turning away from God. Those warnings are given to true believers whether you acknowledge that or not. And they were not given for no reason. We should take them very seriously. Yet, I can only assume that you do not since you don't think those verses apply to true believers.

"...you clearly do not understand what falling away means."
I don't accept what you think falling away means. And you will say the same to me, which is fine with me.

Here is Webster's definition of apostasy:

1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith

2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

Do you see anything in either of those definitions that says anything about someone without true faith leaving the religious organization of which they don't have true faith in and loyalty to? I don't. These definitions agree with what I've been saying apostasy is, which is the act of someone who has true faith in something and loyalty to it later deciding that they no longer have faith and no longer want to be loyal to it. It's not possible for someone without true faith and without true loyalty to God to fall away from God. You can only fall away (apostasize) from something that you are actually and truly a part of in the first place. So, those antichrists who were "not of us" that John referenced did not fall away, they simply made it known that they were never true believers in the first place.

"Do you know what someone who professes Christ is called? A Christian."
Well, that's what they call themselves, and that's what we call them, but it may turn out at some point that that's not true. This is falling away.

No, it is not. And you're not doing anything to back up your understanding of what falling away means.

Or, another possibility is that they profess Christ for a time, but then publicly renounce it (which is apostasy), but then come back again, so in that case, maybe they were a heart-regenerate Christian, but then had doubts for a time, but then it was reaffirmed in them in some way, in which case it only seemed for a time that they fell away. People travel different paths in life, for sure; some go back and forth several times. Free will is a funny thing, sometimes; we can change our minds many times over...

I'm sorry, but I find it very disingenous for any Calvinist to talk as if they believe in free will.

"Such a person is saved if they truly put their faith in Him."
Saving faith is not something we manufacture in ourselves and give to God and that merits our salvation;

Show me the scripture which teaches this. Good luck. You'll find scripture that says we would be able to boast if salvation was dependent on our own works or on works of the law (old covenant law), but you will not find any scripture which says that about our personal faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

that's quite opposite to what various passages in the Bible say. Consider the Biblical definition of faith again... "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). None of us can assure ourselves of things hoped for, because that's no assurance at all, but only what we might call wishful thinking. And none of us can convict ourselves of things we don't see. This assurance and conviction must be given to us, it must come from something or someone outside ourselves.

What you fail to acknowledge is that this does not just happen automatically. We are responsible to willingly cooperate with the Holy Spirit's work of conviction and giving us assurance. You can try, but you cannot get around verses like this:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Stephen was clearly angry with them for resisting the Holy Spirit, yet you try to say that they were not capable of doing anything but resisting the Holy Spirit. I guess Stephen was angry with them for no reason then in your mind?

"Only someone who has true faith in the first place can fall away from their faith."
If someone truly has the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1), which is God's gift by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9), he/she will never fall away, because he/she will exercise his/her free will against falling away, and this is because God/Jesus authors/pioneers and perfects/sustains our faith (Hebrews 12:2).

You clearly have no idea of what free will even is. Free will implies that someone is fully capable of making the choice to accept Christ or to deny Him with that decision being entirely up to the person who using their free will. Your apparent definition of "free" will is that a person will automatically "choose" to continue having faith with no possibility of choosing otherwise. What is "free" about that when there is only one possible outcome? Nothing. Please stop acting as if you believe in free will when you so clearly do not.

He/she will make his/her calling and election sure because it is God working in him/her so that he/she works and wills for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13). And this is just a few verses after Paul has just said, He who begins a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

If you read all of scripture instead of interpreting verses in isolation then you would know that any statements like that are contingent upon the willful cooperation and obedience of the person God is working in. Otherwise, passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 and Hebrews 6:4-6 should be taken out of the Bible.

As Jude says, God is able to keep us from stumbling and present us blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy (Jude 24).

Of course He is, but that doesn't just happen automatically. We're not puppets or robots. We are human beings with responsibility. Calvinism removes all responsibility from human beings. Calvinism makes a mockery out of God punishing people for not repenting and having faith despite Him not giving them repentance and faith. Who ever heard of giving out punishment for things people had no control over? That's complete nonsense.

Paul says also that those whom (God) foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified ... in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us ... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:29-39).

As I said before, none of that says that we can't lose our faith. it says that no one can take us away from God. That does not mean we can't leave Him. You can't interpret Romans 8:29-39 without also keeping passages like Hebrews 3:12-14, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27 and Hebrews 12:25 in mind.

"Losing your faith is apostasy."
Well now you're just denying the very definition ~ in any dictionary ~ of apostasy.

That is completely false. I showed you the definition earlier from Webster's dictionary which agrees with my view of apostasy. What do you have to show otherwise?

"God offers salvation to all people..."
Absolutely! The outward call of the Gospel of Christ is to all people. But God does not call everyone inwardly by His Spirit. Not everyone is born again of the Spirit.

My goodness. You say "Absolutely!" that God offers salvation to all people and, yet, you don't believe all people are capable of accepting His offer of salvation. That isn't a genuine offer to all people then. Why would you want to make God out to not be geniune when making an offer to all people? Why would He offer salvation to some people who are (supposedly) not even capable of accepting it? That make no sense whatsoever. If He offers salvation to all people, as you agree that He does, then there is no reason to think that His offer is not genuine for all people and no reason to think that not all people are capable of accepting His offer.

 

[PinSeeker]

...

ON FREE WILL​

"You are denying that! Either that or you don't even know what free will is."​

<eyroll> I get that it seems that way to you, but no...

"You don't believe that all people are free to make the choice to either accept or reject Christ with each choice being a viable option for all people."​

This accusation is absolutely, unequivocally false. Ah, "choice"... I'm glad you actually use that term here. Using a good concordance, Spiritual Israelite, and search the word "choose," and see what comes up. With regard to salvation ~ which is of the Lord ~ our choice is free, but it is always in the context of God's choice. In other words ~ and this is what I have been saying... God chooses some ~ but not all ~ from before the salvation of the world, which Paul says in Ephesians 1. These are His "vessels of mercy," as Paul says in Romans 9, whom He creates for noble use. This is His purpose of election (not ours), which Paul also says in Romans 9. And in acting on that choice of His, the granting of salvation, which happens at the time he appoints. See Acts 13:48... those appointed to eternal life come to belief; they come to believe because He has appointed them. So God's choice of us unto salvation precedes ours, and ours happens only if He has previously exercised His and subsequently changed the nature of the person, given them a new heart, made them a new creation (various references, including Ezekiel 36:26-27, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15). This has nothing to do with any kind of manipulation of people's free choice, but since one then has a new nature of God, which is God's work in them, people's free will choices with regard to God and His offer of salvation and of Christ Himself then are different than they would otherwise have been ~ opposite, actually, an emphatic 'yes' rather than an emphatic 'no.'

"You believe that the choice of whether someone is saved or not is God's alone."​

See above. Now, here again, I know, Spiritual Israelite, you do not mean to be doing this, but the effect is that you are... By saying that we are "free agents," as it were, you are denying God's free will. You are saying, inadvertently, that God's will depends on ours and is not free at all, that because we choose Him, He is then obligated ~ forced, event ~ to choose us. And this is absolutely untrue.

"Please be honest here."​

That's actually what I'm trying to get you to do... not necessarily to be honest with me, but really with yourself.

GOD'S GRACE​

"Please tell me, how does it diminish God's grace at all by believing that God lovingly extends His grace to all people..."
Ah. There is a difference, Spiritual Israelite, between God's common grace, which He gives to all, and what we call His particular grace, or His salvific grace. You may react negatively to that (and probably will, I think), but you and I both know that not everyone is going to be saved (whether we agree on God's sovereignty in His electing some to salvation or not). So, necessarily since we know and agree that God's salvation is by grace alone, and not everyone will be saved, some receive this grace, and some do not ~ it is not universal. So this grace is particular only to some and given to those receiving it only. But stepping back, we know that life itself is by the grace of God, for example, and we all have this grace, so it is common to all. We cannot not accept the difference, there is the common grace of God, which is given to all, but there is particular, salvific grace, and that grace is only given to some (God's elect). And by saying God's salvific grace is extended to all people, the effect of that is that it is fallible, actually, that it can be overcome, that God Himself can be overcome. That's how.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Faith and works are not the same no matter how hard you try to make that so."
I'm... not trying to do that at all, Spiritual Israelite. As I've said, our good works are the outward evidence of the faith we have.

It doesn't matter if you're trying to or not. You are. You have indicated that you believe in my view faith is a work of man and you are relating it to the kind of works from which salvation does not come. But, that is not stated in scripture anywhere. Salvation IS through faith but is NOT of good works. So, you can't say that salvation is not of man's own faith when scripture never says that. It only says it's not of man's own works.

The good works happen AFTER we have been saved by grace through faith. So, you need to stop acting as if it was the case that if we are saved by our choice to have faith then that means we can boast of our own salvation. No, that is not what Paul said at all. He only indicated that we could boast if we could do good works to earn our own salvation. He did not indicate that salvation is not of our faith, he said it is not of our works.

"Salvation occurs by grace through faith and it's after that when we start doing the works that God has prepared for us to do."
This is pretty much exactly what I have said. Wow. Yes, again, our good works are the outward evidence of the faith we have been given.

I love you how you act like you agree with me and then proceed to say things that you know I don't agree with. You have done that several times now. Is it on purpose or are you just not thinking when you do that? I do not believe that "our good works are the outward evidence of the faith we have been given." since I don't believe that faith is given to us. I do believe that good works are evidence of our faith. But, the faith comes first. That's what you're not understanding. We become saved by grace AFTER putting our faith in Christ and THEN we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who gives us the power and ability to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do.

"Scripture repeatedly refers to "your faith" and "our faith" and not "God's faith", so you're fighting an uphill battle here."
I'm not "fighting" any such "battle," Spiritual Israelite. Yes, it's our faith. But it's irrefutably the gift of God.

Irrefutably? LOL. Well, that's clearly not the case since I have been refuting that repeatedly and using scripture to do so.

Again:

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God Who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He wills" (1 Corinthians 12:4-11).

Did you ignore what I already said about this or did you not see it? This is not talking about the saving faith we initially have when we put our faith in Christ. These gifts of the Spirit are given AFTER we have put our faith in Christ and have been saved. As I have shown you multiple times now, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER we have put our faith in Christ (Eph 1:12-13).

"We are responsible to humble ourselves and repent of our sins and acknowledge that we can't save ourselves and place our faith in Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior."
Agreed. Nothing I have said suggests otherwise.

Almost everything you've said suggests otherwise. You believe God humbles us or somehow makes us humble ourselves (are we really humbling ourselves in that case - no), but you know I'm talking about us being responsible to willingly choose to humble ourselves. If it's all up to God as to whether we are humbled or not then we can't genuinely say that we have humbled ourselves.

"How is it something to boast about if we willingly choose to humble ourselves and acknowledge that we're sinners in need of a Savior and can't save ourselves?"
If you say that you've done this all on your own, that you've given yourself faith, you have reason to boast, to praise yourself.

I haven't said that. You know that, right? You should since I clearly haven't said anything remotely like that. Is that what Arminians believe? If so, then I'm not an Arminian. I believe God holds every person responsible to decide whether or not to accept His gracious offer of salvation that He undeniably offers to all people (Titus 2:11). Calvinism makes that offer out to not be genuine for all people and I couldn't disagree more with that.

So, in my view, God initiates everything by way of the preaching of the gospel and speaking to people through the Holy Spirit, but we are made responsible to decide how to respond to His offer.

You might not actually do so; I'm sure you will probably say you would never do such a thing, and that's great,

And I did above. So, just accept that and don't try to tell me what I believe. I will tell you what I believe.

but really, you would have reason to,

No, I would not. This statement shows that you don't even understand what I believe. You make assumptions about what I believe such as lumping me in with Arminians as if I agree with them about everything (no idea if I do or not, but I'm guessing probably not). How can you refute something that you don't even understand?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

and that's what Paul is arguing against there in Ephesians 2:9.

He's not arguing against what I believe there. He's arguing against the idea of salvation being of our own WORKS, not of it being of our own FAITH. It's most importantly by God's grace, but you can't just ignore that man has responsibility that God places on him. Otherwise, what is the point of judgment day? If everyone just does what they are naturally born to do, what reason is there for rewards or punishment being given out on judgment day? Please answer that.

And, I'm sure you will remember, What Jesus Himself said in response to His disciples when they asked Him, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:25-26)

Of course! You say things like this as if those things are in contrast to what I believe, which once again shows your lack of understanding of what I believe (my belief, not Arminius or anyone else). But, they are not. Of course, salvation is only possible because God makes it that way. But, it just so happens that He made man responsible to make a choice of how to respond to His offer of salvation. That was His choice to make it that way and His choice to make it possible for all people to respond. Otherwise, He would not offer salvation to all people.

"...It isn't as though that just randomly happens. It happens in response to the grace God extends to us..."
Agreed, as I have said. Nothing God does is random; everything He does is for His own glory. And yes, God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Again, you say something to me as if I disagree with it, showing once again your lack of understanding of what I believe. I agree that God's purposes cannot be thwarted! But, what you are not understanding is that one of His purposes was to give all people a genuine opportunity to be saved which is why He graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11).

....which He extends to all people, as Paul said in Titus 2:11."
The outward call of the Gospel unto salvation is to all people, yes. Paul is very clear on that in Titus 2 and elsewhere, as are other Biblical writers. Sure. But the inward call of God issued by the Holy Spirit in the heart is only issued to those whom God chose before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1), those whom He foreknew, predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, and called (Romans 8:29-30), His elect, which includes Jew and Gentile alike (Romans 9).

This is such nonsense. You make God's offer of salvation to all people to be disingenuous. God forbid! That is an attack on God's character!

"You choose to accept a gift or not. Does anyone force you to accept a gift? Do people shove gifts in your face and tell you have to take them? No. It is offered to you and then you choose whether to accept it or not."
LOL! You've never refused a Christmas gift, I'm sure, Spiritual Israelite. You may at some point return it and get something else, maybe... "Shove gifts in your face and tell them you have to take them"? Wow. Come on, Spiritual Israelite. With regard to God, I think we're all pretty thankful that He had mercy upon us, right?

You're the one who brought up Christmas gifts, so that's why I referred to that. But, that is obviously not the best example to use in a case like this since it's unlikely someone would refuse a Christmas gift.

But, it's not as if it's not possible for a gift to be offered to someone with that person choosing to not accept it. Surely, you understand that? Maybe not a Christmas gift, but some other type of gift.

For example, not long ago I offered a friend of mine a cash gift to help him get a car that he needs. He refused it. Out of pride, I think. He said he would figure things out. So, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

God offers salvation to all people. Genuinely, which you deny since you think the acceptance of the offer is entirely up to God and, obviously, not all people are saved. So, it's a disingenuous offer for some in your view which makes God look very bad. God does not force anyone to accept His offered gift. How could that be considered grace if He forces some to accept it while making it so that others can't accept it?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"You acknowledge yourself that the gift of faith or faithfulness is not something all Christians have."
I acknowledged no such thing.

I was referring to the gift of the Holy Spirit that you referenced. You did acknowledge that wasn't given to all Christians. I'm sure you understand that not all gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to everyone. Paul made that clear. The gift of faith or faithfulness that is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is something beyond the saving faith that someone places in Christ when they are first saved. The gifts of the Spirit are given after someone has placed their faith in Christ.

"...all Christians have saving faith!"
Agreed. If they are truly heart-regenerate, if they truly have the Spirit. But not all who merely say they are Christians are truly heart-regenerate Christians, not all who say they are Christians truly have the Spirit; many will... fall away. That was true in the first century church, and it is still true today.

Again, only a true Christian can fall away because only a true Christian has the kind of faith that those who fall away turn away from. Your understanding of apostasy/falling away is flawed.

"You can't be a Christian without saving faith!"
Agreed, but one can say he/she is a Christian ~ one can say anything ~ and not have true saving faith, which is the gift of God.

Someone saying they are a Christian when they're not is meaningless! Such a person can't fall away from something that they are not even part of in the first place.

"Of course. No one here would deny that."
This is your response to my quoting Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, that God empowers all gifts of His Holy Spirit in Christians as He wills and apportions to each as He wills. And faith ~ yes, our faith ~ is one of those things (verse 9). But yet, you do seem to deny it nevertheless..

That's not saving faith. None of the gifts of the Spirit that Paul listed are given to every Christian, yet every Christian has saving faith. So, put two and two together and you can see that Paul was not referring to saving faith there.

. A curious thing indeed. You seem to say (several times now) that faith is what we manufacture in ourselves and thus meriting of, deserving of God's grace. Grace, Spiritual Israelite, is unmerited ~ not merited; undeserved ~ favor).

I don't say otherwise. I've already explained my view on this multiple times. Someone choosing to humble themselves and acknowledge that they can't save themselves and only God can save them is not a case of someone meriting their salvation. It's quite the opposite. How can you think that someone saying they can't save themselves and accepting God's offer of salvation is a case of someone earning their own salation? That makes no sense.

"That is something He gives AFTER someone has been saved/born again, not something He gives to make someone saved/born again."
It's all a one-time thing, really. When we are born again, we are a new creation in Christ. The gifts may take a bit of time to really manifest themselves outwardly, but we have them from the get-go. Like athletic talent... a great athlete is naturally athletic from birth, but nobody realizes it until he/she grows up a bit and goes out on a ball field or court and starts beating everybody, right?

We are born again and receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit AFTER we have put our faith in Christ (Ephesians 1:12-13). That's what you continue to deny even though scripture teaches this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

ON FREE WILL​

"You are denying that! Either that or you don't even know what free will is."​

<eyroll> I get that it seems that way to you, but no...

"You don't believe that all people are free to make the choice to either accept or reject Christ with each choice being a viable option for all people."​

This accusation is absolutely, unequivocally false. Ah, "choice"... I'm glad you actually use that term here. Using a good concordance, Spiritual Israelite, and search the word "choose," and see what comes up. With regard to salvation ~ which is of the Lord ~ our choice is free, but it is always in the context of God's choice.

Speaking of something being "absolutely, unequivocally false". That is the case with your last statement here. Would you agree that anyone serving the Lord is saved and those not serving the Lord and serving false gods instead are not saved?

Joshua 24:14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

Joshua gave the Israelites a choice here. Either to "fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness" or to serve the false gods of their ancestors or of the Amorites. Do you see anything here to suggest that the choice Joshua was telling them to make would not be their own choice, but would rather be God's choice? I don't.

In other words ~ and this is what I have been saying... God chooses some ~ but not all ~ from before the salvation of the world, which Paul says in Ephesians 1.

What God chose from the foundation of the world is not certain individuals to be saved, but rather that anyone who believed in His Son would be His children.

These are His "vessels of mercy," as Paul says in Romans 9, whom He creates for noble use. This is His purpose of election (not ours), which Paul also says in Romans 9.

No, vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath are not created to be the way they are. Pharaoh is given as an example. It does not say he was born to become the Pharaoh of Egypt and to harden his heart towards God. That was his choice. God can use someone who has chosen to be that way for any purpose He chooses. It is not as if Pharaoh was born with a hardened heart. I've shown you that such an idea if clearly false because Jesus said in Matthew 19:14 "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.". Why would Jesus say something like that if people are born with hardened hearts? Was He saying that the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these with hardened hearts? LOL Clearly not. So, you are not interpreting Romans 9 correctly by saying that people are born as vessels of mercy or vessels of wrath. That is not what Paul said at all.

And in acting on that choice of His, the granting of salvation, which happens at the time he appoints. See Acts 13:48... those appointed to eternal life come to belief; they come to believe because He has appointed them.

This is yet another proof text that Calvinists interpret wrongly because of doctrinal bias.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

This does NOT say that these Gentiles were appointed to believe. It says they were appointed to eternal life. Why? Because God determined that anyone who believed would have eternal life. You are reading things into the verse that are not there. Nowhere does it say that those Gentiles were appointed or predestined to believe.

GOD'S GRACE​

"Please tell me, how does it diminish God's grace at all by believing that God lovingly extends His grace to all people..."
Ah. There is a difference, Spiritual Israelite, between God's common grace, which He gives to all, and what we call His particular grace, or His salvific grace. You may react negatively to that (and probably will, I think), but you and I both know that not everyone is going to be saved (whether we agree on God's sovereignty in His electing some to salvation or not).

Wow. You're right about me reacting negatively to this. And rightly so. Common grace and particular grace is what YOU call it, not what scripture calls it. You are trying to force this man-made concept into scripture, but it's never taught in scripture anywhere.

Paul referred to God's grace that offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11). I don't care what you call that, but it is completely unacceptable to make that out to not be a genuine offer to some people as your doctrine does. That's the bottom line.

 

[PinSeeker]

You've given examples where you THINK scripture does that and I've shown that it doesn't. It never does, let alone "many, many times over".

And you've given examples where you think you've shown that it doesn't, it never does. Sure. We disagree.

Continuing on...

How can you say that "the invitation is open" if only a few are even able to accept it?

This is a mischaracterization of what I have said. All I have said is that only the few will ~ of their own free will and accord ~ accept it. You apparently see no difference in "being able to" ~ which, yes, anyone is able to do most anything ~ and "will," with regard to acting on or not acting on something. Here's a very simple illustration, SI. I'm sure you've given a party of some kind in your day, a birthday party, a holiday celebration, or what have you. Has everyone always accepted your invitation? I'm sure the answer to that is no. Have you never had anyone decline for one reason or another? I'm sure the answer to that is yes. The point being, you invited many, but only some number less than the full number of invitations you made were acted upon. So, using your own words here, the invitation was open, but only a few accepted, not because they were, woodenly speaking, were "not able," as if they had no ability, but that they did not act in the affirmative and come to your party, even for innocuous reasons like a previous engagement, or illness.

That is what you believe.

I'm... really frustrated with you telling me what I believe and it being not what I believe.

We are born with a tendency to sin, but we are NOT "naturally hardened at birth". That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

This is Jacobus Arminius's first of his five points back in the early 1600s. He was wrong. And, whether you know you are following after him or not, that you are. Not following him in the sense that you are a follower of Jesus, but following in what he believed regarding Scripture.

I already showed you that from scripture!

You think you did, sure.

Are you reading everything I'm saying?

Absolutely. Every time you say those things... :)

​

ORIGINAL SIN / TOTAL DEPRAVITY​

"If we're all "naturally hardened at birth, then why did Jesus say this: (Matthew 19:13-15) Was Jesus saying here that "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these" that are hardened and have been hardened from birth?! Of course not! That would be ridiculous. Jesus would never have said that if people are hardened even from birth."​

Jesus was not addressing this subject here, Spiritual Israelite. The children served as a metaphor of the humility necessary for entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

"You continually interpret one verse or passage in isolation without being careful to not interpret it in such a way that contradicts any other scripture."​

And I say the same of you. Regarding that Romans 1 passage, I would say that this is the inclination of all from birth, to become futile in their thinking. David acknowledges that in Psalm 51:3-5 (pointed out before) even of himself, that "I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Solomon, in Proverbs 3, says, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones." Why would Solomon exhort us to this if it were not our natural inclination to do otherwise? Paul says this in Romans 5:12, that "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned..." Adam's post-Fall state is bequeathed to us at birth, even conception; we are dead in our sin, at enmity with God. This cannot be soft-pedaled in any way; it is what it is.

...in your view, it's not true that He "may have mercy on all" people. In your view, He only may (and does) have mercy on the relative few He has decided to have mercy on while there is no chance at all that He "may have mercy" on anyone else.

No, you're misreading ~ whether purposefully or not ~ what I have said, foisting many things on me falsely.

...your understanding of Romans 11:32 is completely flawed.

Again, I think the same of your view, in this case of Romans 11:32, that it is flawed. We disagree.

That's a lie.... Another lie....

<eyeroll> You may think it's untrue, but please stop telling me I'm "lying." Spiritual Israelite.

You're talking to me, not Jacobus Arminius.

Yes, but you believe very much along the same lines as he did.

Let's leave him out of it.

Okay, well, then quit believing as he did on some things (because he was wrong). I'm merely saying that your beliefs really come from his views... and Pelagius's centuries before Arminius.

I'm not even sure if I agree with everything he believed.

AH! Now that I believe! Yes, most Arminians don't even realize it... don't even know who Arminius was. But there are roots to beliefs, places and people from whence they came... :) Influences, as the kids call it these days...

I just know I disagree with what Calvinism teaches...

Well, if you keep twisting Calvin's teachings into things that they are not, then that's a problem, indicating either that you don't really know what Calvin taught, or that you are purposely twisting his teachings. Which it is I don't know, and it really matters not ~ except maybe with regard to your integrity ~ but the result is the same.

...it seems that you agree with everything that Calvinism teaches.

I am an unapologetic 5-point Calvinist, yes. :) Which is more accurately stated that with John Calvin, I am an unapologetic 0 of 5 points Arminian. :)

It man was born totally depraved, as the false teacher John Calvin claimed, then I wonder if he ever read the passages I shared with you earlier from Matthew 19 and Romans 1 which clearly teach otherwise.

LOL! See above.

Yet, scripture repeatedly teaches that election/salvation is conditional upon a person's responsibility...

Conditional on God's mercy, which is contingent on nothing except His will. If He does extend His mercy and compassion, then that individual will ~ of his/her own free will and accord ~ inevitably repent of his/her sins and believe on Christ, and he/she will be saved.

LIMITED ATONEMENT​

"What does "unlimited in the sense of sufficiency" even mean?"​

Jesus's atonement was sufficient ~ great enough ~ to achieve the salvation of all men. It's not hard.

"You had to make something up..."​

LOL! No...

"...in order to distract attention away from how incredibly wrong the doctrine of limited atonement is."​

Not all will be saved. Sadly, some will perish, be resurrected to judgment, suffer the second death, enter into eternal punishment. The efficacy of Jesus's atonement is not applied to all people. Not all people are born again of the Spirit. We all agree on this; universalism is antithetical to Scripture.

"Scripture is very clear that "the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people" (Titus 2:11) and that God "wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4). There is no limit to Jesus's atonement."​

In the sense of sufficiency, I agree. But not all will be saved, and in that sense, in the sense of who it is applied to and effectual for, it is limited. There is both an unlimited sense regarding Jesus's atonement (the former) and a limited sense of Jesus's atonement (the latter), and neither can be denied.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

This has gone far enough, Spiritual Israelite. Now we are just circling back over (and over and over) the same things. Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

One thing... :) This from the Westminster Confession of Faith (with Scripture references):

Chapter IX Of Free Will​

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil. 204 ​

204 MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.​

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;205 but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it. 206 ​

205 ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.​

​

206 GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.​

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:207 so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,208 and dead in sin,209 is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.210 ​

207 ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

​

208 ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.​

​

209 EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses​

​

210 JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.​

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;211 and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;212 yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil. 213 ​

211 COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.​

​

212 PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.​

​

213 GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.​

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.214 ​

214 EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

 

[PinSeeker]

Others of particular interest:

​

Chapter X Of Effectual Calling​

Chapter XIV Of Saving Faith​

Chapter XV Of Repentance unto Life​

Chapter XVI Of Good Works​

​

Chapter XVII Of the Perseverance of the Saints​

​

Just a magnificent document. Not the Bible, of course, but based on it through and through. Worth the time.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Grace and peace to you, Spiritual Israelite.

 

[Timtofly]

If that was the case then why does the Holy Spirit even bother with those people at all?

Now who is mocking?

Why do you see the Holy Spirit as coming at a certain point? What defines that point?

Many fail to see that the Holy Spirit is at work since conception. The resistance and inability to hear the Holy Spirit does increase depending on one's environment growing up. That is the seed in multiple environments, and in most never taking root.

But people with your view never define when that happens. Is it the first time one hears the Gospel? Why would God not be working since conception? The heavens declare the glory of God, and humans are without excuse.


The Gospel being sown is the responsibility of the church to plant the seed of the Gospel, not plant the Holy Spirit to start working. God has already started that process from conception. We know it is from conception because John the Baptist responded abnormally to the Holy Spirit even in the womb. It was not that John the Baptist was the only person who experienced the Holy Spirit from conception. He may have been made more receptive, due to the uniqueness of his ministry. But no one is without excuse, even those cut off from the Gospel. The point of the OT view of the Holy Spirit never changed. What changed is how God used that Holy Spirit in certain people's lives. Then on Pentecost, they were given a physical manifestation of that power. That still does not negate that all humans were chosen, the elect, by God and have the Holy Spirit since conception.

That election will go unanswered by the majority in darkness until they stand as the dead at the GWT. It is also true that all humans since Seth have been born in sin and are in a state of death. It is when a human decides their vote changes from death to life that they now have 2 votes against Satan's vote to remain in sin. That vote change is belief. Placing one's belief in God is the second birth.

Repenting of one's sin is also important. It is sin that hinders the development of a relationship. But is there a point when a person takes back their vote and gives it to Satan? Would they take it back because they never gave it to God to begin with. What about this step of belief that is so insecure that it is aborted before it is born?

Your example of the jailer. Did he believe to save his life from the Roman authorities or to submit to God? Do people get into a bind, and then call out to God, and then when things return to normal just forget God altogether? Is there a point where belief changes to believer.

 

[Timtofly]

I am an unapologetic 5-point Calvinist.

What 5 points?

 

[MatthewG]

Its good to know there is no definite “you going to heaven or you going yo hell” in thr victoryof Christ.

There is the outside, the outer court, the inner court and the holy of holies which is heavenly since hell has been done away with.

Everyone goes to the heavenly realm all in respect to Gods defined judgement. For good and evil people have done on their life.

 

[ewq1938]

Everyone goes to the heavenly realm all in respect to Gods defined judgement.

That's not what the bible says. Most go to the LOF which is an eternal judgment.

 

[MatthewG]

Sure it does, ewq. Just read the last chapter of revelation, friend. I dont mind you disagreeing, love you anyway. See you again some other time if there is one. Give glory to God and be encouraged to seek truth. (If you wanna know more about what I believe its totally up to you, check out the first link in my signature.) May God judge.

 

[ewq1938]

Sure it does, ewq. Just read the last chapter of revelation, friend.

Nothing there supports the heresy of Universalism.

How about listen to what Jesus said?

Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Shall not see life does not mean shall see life.

 

[MatthewG]

Sorry friend, i dont debate anymore. You may believe how you will its fine. I trust what the revelation of Jesus Christ states in Revelation. :) All the best to you, and may you be encouraged to seek truth. Its impartive these days. If we still live in Jesus time, do you remeber he said he would raise those of unbelief, and those of faith? Resurrection of condemnation, and resurrection of lifr. There has to be some merit to that, ewq. No hatred, just sincerity of the heart. We can agree to disagree. :) love to you and your family and all
The best in Christ!

I have been sick all day and getting ready for bed soon.

 

[Timtofly]

Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God

Not really. Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good equally along with evil.

What part of no sin do both sides fail to grasp? There was no sin so good was a moot point. Everything was the same. God called it perfect or complete.

The term innocence cannot apply. It was more ignorance rather than anything we can comprehend.

Evidently, Eve should not have even been allowed to look at the tree. Adam should have placed a box over it. But that is part of ignorance.

Yet most don't even acknowledge that there were other sons of God scattered across the earth. What Adam was put in charge of would effect many beings.