The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[covenantee]

I rest my case,

This person does not believe God keeps his eternal promises.

Nothign more needs said

Awaiting your answers to post 434.

And to Hebrews 6:4-6.

Definitions of "for ever":

Genesis 13:15 Hebrew

5769 [e]
‘ō·w·lām.
עוֹלָֽם׃
ever
N‑ms

Strong's Concordance
olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity

 

[PinSeeker]

Those of OT Israel who believed that their "chosenness" granted them "eternal security", and thus permitted them to behave as they pleased, ended up as corpses by the thousands.

They are lessons for those who think similarly today. God in His mercy withholds judgment today, but disaster awaits in eternity if there is not a return to the faith.

There will be multitudes in hell who believed that they could live as they pleased because they were "eternally secure".

God is the giver of faith, which we know is His assurance of things hoped for, the conviction by the Holy Spirit of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). By grace we have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8). And once given saving faith, we are by God’s power being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5). We don't create or manufacture our own faith and thereby contribute that in our salvation, nor do we maintain it in us; faith is not a work of man, but of God. Jesus is the author/founder and finisher/perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).

There is absolutely no doubt that Charles Templeton was regenerate of heart until he repudiated his regeneration.

Sure, well, anybody can repudiate anything, for sure. But with regard to regeneration of the heart by the Holy Spirit ~ we don't in any way regenerate our own hearts and somehow make ourselves born again (surely that's not what you mean to suggest) ~ it is invincible. If He does it, it is, and it always will be: If God begins a good work in us, He will ~ will ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). God's purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2). Either Charles Templeton was never regenerate of heart in the first place, or, possibly, he only thought he was no longer or not regenerate.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is conclusive, as it speaks of "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come". Those descriptions can only refer to those who had experienced salvation.

What the writer of Hebrews is saying here is that these people have heard the truth explained and thus have also learned of God's Word, and experienced the benefits therein and of the presence of the Spirit and His work around them. But faith comes by hearing (Paul again in Romans 10), but we know that not all who hear are given saving faith. The fact is that God, by His Spirit is not at work in them (see Philippians 2:13) or bearing fruit through them (Galatians 5). There are people in our churches today who look the part, to others and even to themselves, but they do not have ~ have not been given ~ faith... have not been born again from above. For many, this will not remain the case; God will at some point call them and begin His good work in them, but for others ~ and this apparently was the case with Charles Templeton ~ not so much, and they eventually fall away. Again, as John says of such folks, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us... (b)ut they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 4:19).

The same Paul who wrote Romans 8:35-39 et al, wrote Hebrews 6:4-6.

There's some evidence that seems to support that, but no one can say for sure. But, even if so, he also wrote all his other letters, too, including the above-mentioned letters to the Ephesians, the Galatians, and the Philippians. I do agree that he didn't contradict himself, but... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Concerning the gospel they are your enemy, concerning the election they are beloved, the GIFTS and calling of God are irrevocable

Your argument is with God not me.

You are equating yourself with God here. Not a good idea. That is your INTERPRETATION and OPINION of what Paul wrote, not a fact. Stop equating yourself with God.

You are including even the remnant of believers as being enemies by saying that Paul was talking about Israel as a whole there. That does not make any sense. The remnant of believers were not enemies. Only "the rest" who "were blinded" were the enemies for the Gentiles' sakes. The remnant of believers, on the other hand, were beloved.

they suffered their fate, and will be lost forever if they did not repent as Saul/Paul and a few others did..

A few others? On the day of Pentecost alone, 3,000 of them were saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A nation is comprised of its individuals.

They are enemies concerning the gospel as individuals.

Right. It's only the individuals who were part of "the rest" who "were blinded" that were enemies. It's ludicrous to claim the entire nation were enemies. No, the remnant of believers were clearly not enemies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The blinded and the remnant were Israel

they are enemies concerning the gospel as a nation.

That is not what Paul said.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

He differentiated between the remnant and "the rest" who "were blinded". He called the saved "according to the election of grace" remnant of believers "the election" in Romans 11:7 and referred to the unsaved as "the rest" who "were blinded". Keep that in mind when you read this:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Notice Paul refers to "the election" here. Who did he say "the election" were earlier? The remnant who were saved "according the election of grace". So, it is them in particular who Paul said "are beloved for the father's sakes. Surely, unbelievers ("the rest" who "were blinded") were not "beloved". They instead were "enemies for your sakes".

They are beloved according to the election, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable

Your argument is with Paul and God

No, my argument is with you because you are contradicting Paul and God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wrong

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

If (when) Israel repents. and comes to christ as a nation. God will remember his promise to them

There is nothing you can say to stop that fact

Repentance and salvation is an individual thing, not a national thing. Each individual person is responsible to repent, not the entire nation collectively. You are contradicting all of scripture by turning repentance and salvation into a corporate thing rather than a responsibility that each individual person has.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He did not promise them SALVATION.

He promised them LAND

Your point is meaningless. because you do not understand what God promised them

Until you do. You have nothing

What does Hebrews 11:8-16 say they were looking for? Does it say they were looking for LAND or something better, such as a heavenly country and a city with foundations whose builder and maker is God?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The new covenant is better than the old (mosaic)

it does not replace the eternal (land)

I don;t need a hint, But you need to read and study

Eternal land? How will it survive this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No

You and your descendents after you.

The land was abrahams,

By proxy it automatically became his children’s (bot only the one seed Isaac)

then it passed to Jacob and his twelve sons, hence the 12 tribes of Israel.

The promise never stopped.

Paul includes Gentiles as being fellowheirs of the promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are equating yourself with God here. Not a good idea. That is your INTERPRETATION and OPINION of what Paul wrote, not a fact. Stop equating yourself with God.

You are including even the remnant of believers as being enemies by saying that Paul was talking about Israel as a whole there. That does not make any sense. The remnant of believers were not enemies. Only "the rest" who "were blinded" were the enemies for the Gentiles' sakes. The remnant of believers, on the other hand, were beloved.


A few others? On the day of Pentecost alone, 3,000 of them were saved.

well since this happened before romans 11. Not sure of your point

I just posted what Paul said.. Its up to you to determine who is enemy and beloved all at the same time..

 

[covenantee]

What the writer of Hebrews is saying here is that these people have heard the truth explained and thus have also learned of God's Word, and experienced the benefits therein and of the presence of the Spirit and His work around them. But faith comes by hearing (Paul again in Romans 10), but we know that not all who hear are given saving faith. The fact is that God, by His Spirit is not at work in them (see Philippians 2:13) or bearing fruit through them (Galatians 5). There are people in our churches today who look the part, to others and even to themselves, but they do not have ~ have not been given ~ faith... have not been born again from above. For many, this will not remain the case; God will at some point call them and begin His good work in them, but for others ~ and this apparently was the case with Charles Templeton ~ not so much, and they eventually fall away. Again, as John says of such folks, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us... (b)ut they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 4:19).

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

To fall away, one must first have experienced something to fall away from.
That something would be salvation.

To be renewed again, one must have experienced a previous renewal.
That previous renewal would be salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is not what Paul said.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

He differentiated between the remnant and "the rest" who "were blinded". He called the saved "according to the election of grace" remnant of believers "the election" in Romans 11:7 and referred to the unsaved as "the rest" who "were blinded". Keep that in mind when you read this:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Notice Paul refers to "the election" here. Who did he say "the election" were earlier? The remnant who were saved "according the election of grace". So, it is them in particular who Paul said "are beloved for the father's sakes. Surely, unbelievers ("the rest" who "were blinded") were not "beloved". They instead were "enemies for your sakes".



No, my argument is with you because you are contradicting Paul and God.

the remnant is israel. the natural branches

there is no gentile remnant,

learn what a remnant is

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Repentance and salvation is an individual thing, not a national thing. Each individual person is responsible to repent, not the entire nation collectively. You are contradicting all of scripture by turning repentance and salvation into a corporate thing rather than a responsibility that each individual person has.

I will tell you like I told your brother

This is not about salvation, it never has been.. The covenant is not salvic in nature. it never has been

If you continue down the same path, i will ignore you like I have ignored him for bearing false witness

If you can;t accurately interpret what the one you speaking with believes. how can I even contemplate you can interpret the word of God

 

[covenantee]

the remnant is israel. the natural branches

there is no gentile remnant,

learn what a remnant is

The remnant was Christians within Israel.

Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, I'm gonna strongly disagree with you on this, too, Covenantee. Eternally Grateful asked me the same question back on page 19, and you can read my answer in post 374 if you haven't already. In a nutshell, it is impossible to credibly refute Paul in Romans 8:35-39 or Ephesians 1:5-14 or Philippians 1:6, or Peter in 1 Peter 1:3-5. I'm... quite surprised you would say this, honestly.

I'm quite surprised that you wouldn't understand that you can fully agree with what those verses say and still believe that someone can lose their faith and fall away. Verses like those speak specifically about how God is unchanging, not people. We can be sure that God will not change His mind about not leaving or forsaking us. He would never do that. But, does that mean we can't leave nor forsake Him? No, it doesn't mean that. If someone leaves and forsakes Him, has He left or forsaken that person? No.

The author of Hebrews is saying the same thing, basically, as John says in 1 John 2:19, that "you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." So, those who fall away were never regenerate of the heart, which is a work of God and... not thwartable.

I believe you are missing the context of both Hebrews 6:4-6 and 1 John 2:19. In 1 John 2:19 John was speaking particularly about people that didn't embrace what he taught when he said they would not have left if they were "of us". He was confident that those who learned from his teaching and embraced it would not fall away and that's why he said what he did. He was not making a blanket statement about all believers there. Notice what it says in Hebrews 6.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So, what Paul (I believe he wrote Hebrews) said in verses 4-6 strongly implies that it's possible for someone who has been saved (only saved people are "made partakers of the Holy Ghost" and have repented) to fall away. But, then he said a few verses later that he was "persuaded better things of" those he was writing to.

So, he wasn't writing about something that couldn't actually happen to a saved person. He did not believe it would happen to those he was writing to because he knew them and was confident that they were growing in their faith rather than regressing. But, his confidence about them was not a guarantee of anything. He had given warnings to believers about falling away previously already in Hebrews 3:12-14 as well. I believe John wrote from the same perspective. He was confident that those who embraced what he taught would not fall away. No one had a better grasp of the truth than John, so it makes sense that he would have that confidence. But, his confidence about those who embraced what he taught does not mean that no one can lose their faith and fall away any more than Paul's confidence about those he was writing to in Hebrews does.

 

[PinSeeker]

To fall away, one must first have experienced something to fall away from.

Right, and again, these people have heard the truth explained and thus have also learned of God's Word, and experienced the benefits therein and of the presence of the Spirit and His work around them. Certainly, one can fall away from that, and of his/her own free will and accord.

That something would be salvation.

God's purpose of election unto salvation for any individual, if purposed for that individual ~ like any other purpose of His ~ cannot be thwarted. God's gifts and calling are ~ his election unto salvation for the individual is ~ irrevocable, for us certainly, but even for God Himself, actually.

To be renewed again, one must have experienced a previous renewal.

Right, renewal of mind can happen multiple times. Hopefully, you change yours here... :) But the new birth ~ the taking out of the heart of stone and the giving of the heart of flesh, Him putting His Spirit within us and thus being our God, as God says through Ezekiel (36:26-27) ~ is very different in that it is effected by God and cannot and will not be undone. No purpose of His can be thwarted (Job 42:2), and He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the Day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Far be it from me to somehow compare myself to Jesus, but this is somewhat like Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus in John 3. I mean, Nicodemus couldn't understand how a person could be born a second time, as you will agree, I'm sure. But it seems like what you are unable to accept, at present, anyway, is that a person cannot be unborn. And on the subject of being born again of the Spirit, cannot afterwards snuff out, or kill... perish the thought... the Spirit God has put within us.

That previous renewal would be salvation.

For any individual to whom it is appointed, God's renewal ~ the new birth ~ only happens once, and it does not fail initially nor in perpetuity. Both Paul and Peter are very clear on this:

• "In (Christ) we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of (God) Who works all things according to the counsel of (God's) will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" (Paul, Ephesians 1:11-14).
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

the remnant is israel. the natural branches

there is no gentile remnant,

learn what a remnant is

Learn how to read. I didn't say anything about a Gentile remnant. I'm saying that the remnant were Israelite believers which Paul called "the election". They were saved "according to the election of grace". Israelite unbelievers were "the rest" who "were blinded". Do you disagree with that?

If so, how do you interpret this passage:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm quite surprised that you wouldn't understand that you can fully agree with what those verses say and still believe that someone can lose their faith and fall away.

Actually, I do agree with what you say here, SI. But, as you know ~ or should ~ the heart is deceitful above all things (Jeremiah 17:9). So many are so hung up on "free will." No one disagrees that our wills are our own and thus free. But the matter, as far as God's salvation goes, is the heart, our inner being. Our wills are of the mind; the mind follows the heart. The mind always ~ eventually, if not immediately ~ follows the heart.

We can be sure that God will not change His mind about not leaving or forsaking us. He would never do that.

Absolutely.

But, does that mean we can't leave nor forsake Him?

It means, that, once God has changed our hearts ~ taken out our heart of stone, given us a heart of flesh, and has caused (and by His Spirit causes, on an ongoing basis) us to walk in His statutes and obey His rules, we will not leave Him; our desire will never be to leave Him, because He, by His Spirit's ongoing work in us, ensures that is the case.

I believe you are missing the context of both Hebrews 6:4-6 and 1 John 2:19. In 1 John 2:19...

Okay, well, I thought otherwise, but that apparently seems to be the case with you, not me. We'll agree to disagree.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Certainly, one can fall away from that, and of his/her own free will and accord.

One does not fall away from what one has only heard.

One falls away from what one has experienced.

Hebrews 6:6 Greek

3895 [e]
parapesontas
παραπεσόντας —
having fallen away
V-APA-AMP

​

Strong's Concordance parapiptó: to fall in, into or away, to fail Original Word: παραπίπτω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: parapiptó Phonetic Spelling: (par-ap-ip'-to) Definition: to fall in, into or away, to fail Usage: I fall away, fall back (into the unbelieving and godless ways of the old time). HELPS Word-studies 3895parapíptō (from 3844/pará, "from close-beside" and 4098/píptō, "to fall") – properly, fall away, after being close-beside; to defect (abandon). 3895/parapíptō ("fallen from a close position") refers to a close-follower of Christ who becomes a defector. It suggests this person (at least at one time) was a believer (note the para). 3895 (parapíptō) is only used in Heb 6:6. to fall away (from the true faith): from the worship of Jehovah, Ezekiel 14:13; Ezekiel 15:8 (for מָעַל); from Christianity, Hebrews 6:6.​

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Learn how to read. I didn't say anything about a Gentile remnant. I'm saying that the remnant were Israelite believers which Paul called "the election". They were saved "according to the election of grace". Israelite unbelievers were "the rest" who "were blinded". Do you disagree with that?

If so, how do you interpret this passage:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The whole things talks about ISRAEL.

Not one gentile is included in that message