The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[Eternally Grateful]

I see you've swapped your 100 ounces of gold for silver.

I see you still have nothing of value to add..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, I don't disagree, but I don't agree either. Or, better put, I both agree in one sense and disagree in another.


Certainly.


Absolutely...

Then you must agree this is till in place. And still a valid covenant.

Gen 13: 14 And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.”

Gen 15:
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Gen 17: 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Gen 26: 2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Gen 28:
28 Then Isaac called Jacob and blessed him, and [a]charged him, and said to him: “You shall not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan. 2 Arise, go to Padan Aram, to the house of Bethuel your mother’s father; and take yourself a wife from there of the daughters of Laban your mother’s brother.
3 “May God Almighty bless you,
And make you fruitful and multiply you,
That you may be an assembly of peoples;
4 And give you the blessing of Abraham,
To you and your descendants with you,
That you may inherit the land
In[b] which you are a stranger,
Which God gave to Abraham.”

Gen 35:
9 Then God appeared to Jacob again, when he came from Padan Aram, and blessed him. 10 And God said to him, “Your name is Jacob; your name shall not be called Jacob anymore, but Israel shall be your name.” So He called his name Israel. 11 Also God said to him: “I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body. 12 The land which I gave Abraham and Isaac I give to you; and to your descendants after you I give this land.”

I can go on and on, But I hope you now see the picture.

As you said, God keeps his promises.

Ah, Romans 11:28, a very misunderstood (by many) verse... Paul is saying that as a corporate body, ethnic Israel is presently opposed to the Lord. This is the partial hardening that he has just spoken of In Romans 11:26. But the same corporate Israel is "beloved for the sake of their forefathers," so yes, God continues in His faithfulness to love the collective whole of ethnic Israel because of His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We know that God will never "abhor [the Jews] so as to destroy them utterly and break [His] covenant" that He made with them (Leviticus 26:44), as you pointed out. I'm not sure whether you think otherwise or not, but this is not a promise to save each and every person of Jewish descent, for "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" (Romans 9:6). In verse 6 alone Paul distinguishes between what you call national Israel and His true Israel. God absolutely does promise that He will never cast off the Jews as a whole (again, Leviticus 26:44). He will some number (maybe most; we don't know the percentage) of them so that we can speak of the salvation of Israel, even if not every single Jew who has ever lived will be saved, even if if not every single Jew who has ever lived, in view of Romans 9:6, will be members of God's true Israel. Yes, He will not go back on His word (Romans 11:29).

You just proved my point

The covenant of land was never salvic in nature. It was possession of land given to their father, and peace

as for Rom 9. Not all Israel means not all who claim to be Israel are saved.. Gentiles are not in context.

1. Read the first 6 verses. Israel.. national. Not gentile is context.

Read later. God shows that Israel not only would reject. But the gentiles would receive.. this is all from 9 - 11.. up to him telling us gentiles not to boast.

And Gentiles are now included in that. Again, a true Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not the letter. This is speaking directly to the Lord's promise of the New Covenant through Jeremiah:

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:31-34).​

If you don't understand Gentiles to be full partakers of this, then... Well, you're your own person. But He has put His law within us, and He has written it on our hearts, those of us who are in Christ, regardless of ethnicity. All in Christ, past, present, and future, are together the Israel of God. And we shall inherit the true Promised Land, the earth.


Sure, well, see above... :)

Grace and peace to you.

your talking about the salvation aspect. Gentiles have ALWAYS been a part of that.. all we have to do is look at Ninevah. as they repented at the teaching of Jonah. The city of Ninevah participated in Abrahams covenant, as through his seed shall all familes (nations) be blessed. so it has always been that way, that is nothing new.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I guess you think you know something Paul didn't know?

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul; knew it, its why he wrote romans 9 - 11. Interpret that correctly and you will see

Of course. We all believe that.

except when it comes to Israel?

This is not what Paul said. You need to read all of Romans 11 in order to understand what he was saying in Romans 11:28.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Notice here that Paul differentiated between the "remnant according to the election of grace" (which he also called "the election") and "the rest" who "were blinded".

Keep that in mind while reading this:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

They (israel) are enemies.. because they are blinded. the nation today is blinded. although yes, through grace some have come to God as I have said.l I have some in my church.

Who "are enemies for your sakes"? That would be "the rest" who "were blinded". Surely, "the election" who were remnant of believers were not enemies for the Gentiles sakes. And who "are beloved for the father's sakes"? Does that include "the rest" who "were blinded"? Of course not. People like the Pharisees and scribes that Jesus ranted against were not beloved. It was "the election", the remnant of believers, who were beloved.


No, He proved it through His Son who died for the sins of the whole world. It's also proven by what He has made (Romans 1:18-20).


You have no authority to dictate how God keeps His promises. What more does God need to do for them than to send His only Son to die for their sins, as He did long ago? Your way of thinking is carnal. You place more importance on a useless piece of land than on eternal salvation. Those who know God are looking for "a better country" which is "heavenly" and "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:8-16).

You have no authority to dictate what promises God keeps and what promises he does not

When God says he will. He does. and continues.

I believe that, You evidently do not.

You give no true believer hope. because they must always worry, If God will not keep his promise to them, why should he keep it with me...

 

[PinSeeker]

Then you must agree this is till in place. And still a valid covenant.

Uh, I always did, EG, but only clarified that it was never so limited as you think it was/is. As I said, it had an immediate relevance and fulfillment, and a ultimate and eternal relevance and fulfillment. You agree with that, I think, at least in principle, but we disagree with how that will ultimately flesh out. As for the latter, the way you see it is... again, no offense, but far, far too small. This is the pattern of all Biblical prophecy.

I can go on and on, But I hope you now see the picture.

Ohhhh... yes, I "see the picture"... All of it. :) That's kind of the point I'm making to you. So, yeah, I hope you come to really see the picture, the whole picture. :)

You just proved my point

LOL!

The covenant of land was never salvic in nature. It was possession of land given to their father, and peace

Well, salvific. Yeah, no, not in and of itself. But it was and is indicative of the ultimate provision of land to God's elect, the whole earth, as I have said. As Jesus said in Matthew 5:5. You see that, I know.

as for Rom 9. Not all Israel means not all who claim to be Israel are saved.

Well, I agree, except a better way to put it is, not all direct descendants of Jacob are part of God's Israel and thus His elect. My point was that even in this one little verse, we can see ~ or should be able to, anyway ~ that the Israel of God is a different group of people than just the direct descendants of Jacob, people of Jewish descent. Certainly there is a number of direct descendants of Jacob included in the Israel of God, maybe most, we don't know, but not all, and there are more ~ far more; Gentiles ~ included in that number. As Moses and Paul say, God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

Gentiles are not in context.

Yes they are... :)

Read the first 6 verses. Israel.. national. Not gentile is context.

In verse 6 itself, Eternally Grateful, Paul says, very clearly, that the Israel of God is far bigger than just ethnic Israel. And as I have said several times, he already alluded to this directly in Romans 2:28-29, writing that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... (b)ut a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter... (h)is praise is not from man but from God."

But yeah, what you say here, that's the dispensational understanding. It's not entirely wrong, but very... short-sighted.

God shows that Israel not only would reject. But the gentiles would receive.

And why would Gentiles receive, Eternally Grateful? Why? Oh yes, the Gentiles ~ elect, believing Gentiles ~ are grafted in. Okay, well yeah, grafted in; we agree on that. So, grafted in to what, Eternally Grateful? Well, first of all, what does it actually mean for something to be grafted in to something, and then what is it that Gentiles are grafted in to?

this is all from 9 - 11.

LOL! That it is... :)

your talking about the salvation aspect. Gentiles have ALWAYS been a part of that.

Well, okay, sure, but this is Paul's point ~ and also was Moses's point ~ that God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion. This is what our election unto God's great salvation ~ our inclusion, regardless of our original, earthly heritage or our ethnicity, in the Israel of God. What Paul does in Romans 9:1-5 is, he says, "Here's what everybody thought about who Israel is." It's a set up for the rest of what he's about to say! And then from Romans 9:6 through Romans 11:36 says, in effect, "It's far, far, less limited than that; here's who the Israel of God really is, who God's chosen people really are and who His promises are really for: His elect, those whom He has chosen to have mercy and compassion on, and in the end, the Israel of God will include all those who love Him, that after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and then the partial hardening that has come upon Israel is removed, all of the Israel of God will have been saved." Yes, I'm talking about the salvation aspect, because Paul is! Wow.

. all we have to do is look at Ninevah. as they repented at the teaching of Jonah. The city of Ninevah participated in Abrahams covenant, as through his seed shall all familes (nations) be blessed. so it has always been that way, that is nothing new.

Hmmm, well, you might want to read the book of Nahum to find out what ultimately happened to Nineveh... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...except when it comes to Israel? You have no authority to dictate what promises God keeps and what promises he does not... When God says he will. He does. and continues... I believe that, You evidently do not... You give no true believer hope. because they must always worry, If God will not keep his promise to them, why should he keep it with me...

No offense intended, EG, but this is ridiculous, a totally false accusation. The disagreement is not at all whether or not God will keep His promises, or even that He will keep His promises to Israel. Really, as it pertains to the dispensational view of things and who made up Israel before the coming of Christ, God already kept His promise to Israel long, long ago ~ when God actually led Abraham into and gave him the Promised Land, just as:

* the covenant God made with Moses was initially fulfilled when He gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Sinai

* the covenant God made with David was initially fulfilled when God made David king over Israel

What still remains in all these cases is the ultimate fulfillment of all these promises, what the lesser promises to lesser Israel point to and foreshadow, the greater promises to Greater Israel, the Israel of God. And, as I have said many times, all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:20), Who said, as I have pointed out, "The meek shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5). In so doing, He was not in any way "nullifying" the land promise that was made to Abraham, but rather clarifying what the land promise really is and how far reaching it really is... in the same manner as all His "But I tell you" statements about different aspects of the law, like adultery, murder, and the like.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Uh, I always did, EG, but only clarified that it was never so limited as you think it was/is. As I said, it had an immediate relevance and fulfillment, and a ultimate and eternal relevance and fulfillment. You agree with that, I think, at least in principle, but we disagree with how that will ultimately flesh out. As for the latter, the way you see it is... again, no offense, but far, far too small. This is the pattern of all Biblical prophecy.

God said forever.

Forever can not stop being forever. so not sure about this ultimate relevance and fullfilment eternal

As I showed.

The land was given to Abraham, it is his. As long as that land still exists on earth. that land belongs to abraham and his children.

there is a reason abrahams children are scattered all over the world.. I have also shown you this.

I have also shown, that if they repent.. and confess. that God will remember his promise

that is valid as much today as it was 2000 years ago..

Ohhhh... yes, I "see the picture"... All of it. :) That's kind of the point I'm making to you. So, yeah, I hope you come to really see the picture, the whole picture. :)

Oh I see it clear.

As God promised me eternal life. God promised them an eternal gift. God will not longer turn his back on his gift to them as he will for me

to say otherwise. well, it would weaken ones ability to have faith. because can God really be trusted.

LOL!


Well, salvific. Yeah, no, not in and of itself. But it was and is indicative of the ultimate provision of land to God's elect, the whole earth, as I have said. As Jesus said in Matthew 5:5. You see that, I know.

Um, no it had nothing to do with anyone's salvation. The jew's thought the same way, its why they were confused.. its also why they rejected their messiah, because they too thought the way you do.

God promised them the land.. Not salvation. He had a purpose for giving them that land.. one was for christ. but the other is to prove to the world what happens when you follow him..

Well, I agree, except a better way to put it is, not all direct descendants of Jacob are part of God's Israel and thus His elect.

but that would be false according to the election of the nation of Isreal ( we are not talking about the election of his saved people which are neither jew or greek. that is a different subject)

My point was that even in this one little verse, we can see ~ or should be able to, anyway ~ that the Israel of God is a different group of people than just the direct descendants of Jacob, people of Jewish descent. Certainly there is a number of direct descendants of Jacob included in the Israel of God, maybe most, we don't know, but not all, and there are more ~ far more; Gentiles ~ included in that number. As Moses and Paul say, God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

once again, For salvation, you are correct.

For the one promise. you are not correct. they have two different contexts. they are two separate promises.

Yes they are... :)

No they are not.

Israel is blinded in part. which means Israel consists of those who see (saved jews) and those who do not see (unsaved jews)

and these are not the gentiles. who are not natural branches and differentiated from saved and unsaved jews..

In verse 6 itself, Eternally Grateful, Paul says, very clearly, that the Israel of God is far bigger than just ethnic Israel.

No he does not.. (well according to your interpretation he does) but thats not what he is saying, as far as salvation goes.. not all are israel who are isreal.

It has nothing to do with any gentile. it is who of Israel are believers and who is not..

that is the context..

And as I have said several times, he already alluded to this directly in Romans 2:28-29, writing that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... (b)ut a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter... (h)is praise is not from man but from God."

again, You have context all out of wack

25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your [f]written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Once again, of the jews. he says according to salvation. they may be jews on the outside. but if they are not inwardly circumcised. they are nothing

Gentiles are not in context. Paul dealt with them in chapter 1

But yeah, what you say here, that's the dispensational understanding. It's not entirely wrong, but very... short-sighted.

And why would Gentiles receive, Eternally Grateful? Why? Oh yes, the Gentiles ~ elect, believing Gentiles ~ are grafted in. Okay, well yeah, grafted in; we agree on that. So, grafted in to what, Eternally Grateful? Well, first of all, what does it actually mean for something to be grafted in to something, and then what is it that Gentiles are grafted in to?

Why would they recieve? Because the gospel was given to them

You just again proved my point. Gentiles are grafted in, but not natural branches.. Jews are seperate.. (speaking of them as nations, not as induviduals)

LOL! That it is... :)


Well, okay, sure, but this is Paul's point ~ and also was Moses's point ~ that God will have mercy on whom He has mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion.

yes, and if you read the OT. everytime God said this it concerned the jews.

So lets take that in context and not get all fatalistic here.

This is what our election unto God's great salvation ~ our inclusion, regardless of our original, earthly heritage or our ethnicity, in the Israel of God. What Paul does in Romans 9:1-5 is, he says, "Here's what everybody thought about who Israel is." It's a set up for the rest of what he's about to say! And then from Romans 9:6 through Romans 11:36 says, in effect, "It's far, far, less limited than that; here's who the Israel of God really is, who God's chosen people really are and who His promises are really for: His elect, those whom He has chosen to have mercy and compassion on, and in the end, the Israel of God will include all those who love Him, that after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and then the partial hardening that has come upon Israel is removed, all of the Israel of God will have been saved." Yes, I'm talking about the salvation aspect, because Paul is! Wow.

Sorry, Gods promise to Israel was NOT SALVATION

every time you say it is. You just show you do not understand his promise.

Hmmm, well, you might want to read the book of Nahum to find out what ultimately happened to Nineveh... :)

Grace and peace to you.

the same that happened to the amorite when they stopped believing? and before God gave abrahams children their land (after they had to walk 40 years for their own sin?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No offense intended, EG, but this is ridiculous, a totally false accusation. The disagreement is not at all whether or not God will keep His promises, or even that He will keep His promises to Israel. Really, as it pertains to the dispensational view of things and who made up Israel before the coming of Christ, God already kept His promise to Israel long, long ago ~ when God actually led Abraham into and gave him the Promised Land, just as:

So according to you it is done.

God said eternal gift. Has the land ceased to exist?

your making it that God gave it to them, so God is done with his work. when that is not true. Because etermal has not ended

* the covenant God made with Moses was initially fulfilled when He gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Sinai

The mosaic covenant was is to lead people to christ.

* the covenant God made with David was initially fulfilled when God made David king over Israel

God still has to fulfil the davidic covenant, and he will when Jesus sits on davids throne

do you know the different between and "I will" agreememnt

and a dual agreement (if you do this, I will do that)?

What still remains in all these cases is the ultimate fulfillment of all these promises, what the lesser promises to lesser Israel point to and foreshadow, the greater promises to Greater Israel, the Israel of God. And, as I have said many times, all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:20), Who said, as I have pointed out, "The meek shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5). In so doing, He was not in any way "nullifying" the land promise that was made to Abraham, but rather clarifying what the land promise really is and how far reaching it really is... in the same manner as all His "But I tell you" statements about different aspects of the law, like adultery, murder, and the like.

Grace and peace to you.

sorry, but God does not give lesser things, when he gave it to Abraham, it was precious to him

God did not tell abraham, If you and your people do this. I will do that

He said I give you this land as an ETERNAL gift..

 

[covenantee]

God said forever.

Forever can not stop being forever. so not sure about this ultimate relevance and fullfilment eternal

Was this for ever?

Or was it transcended by the Sacrifice of Christ the NT Passover Lamb?

Exodus 12
22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

 

[PinSeeker]

God said forever.

Certainly.

Forever can not stop being forever. so not sure about this ultimate relevance and fullfilment eternal

Yes, I well understand. :) I well understand what you... understand... think... you have shown. :)

Oh I see it clear.

No, but I well understand that you think you do... :) But you don't see the greater fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Or the Adamic, or the Noahic, or the Mosaic, or the Davidic... the eternal fulfillments of these promises, which are still yet to come, but they surely will.

to say otherwise. well...

Well nothing, because no one here is saying otherwise.

it would weaken ones ability to have faith. because can God really be trusted.

Who is the Giver of faith, Eternally Grateful? You? Did you give yourself this assurance and conviction? If you think so, then you might take another look at 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 (vv.4, 9a, and 11 in particular), Ephesians 2:8 and Hebrews 11:1... :)

Um, no it had nothing to do with anyone's salvation.

The whole Bible is about salvation, Eternally Grateful. Redemption and salvation. From Genesis to Revelation. And regarding Romans 9-11 in particular, the main verses that Paul's whole discourse boils down to are:

• "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills. (9;16-18)
• "What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:22-24)
• "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved... For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy." (Romans 11:25-31)

It's all about redemption and salvation. To say it's not, that "it had (or has) nothing to do with anyone's salvation"... Wow. I mean that's akin to saying "The nose on my face is not really a nose, it's my big toe." LOL! Wow.

The jews thought the same way, its why they were confused.. its also why they rejected their messiah, because they too thought the way you do.

Ah, no, the Jews thought when the God's Messiah came, that he would bring political triumph over all who opposed them... and really because they saw Israel only as you do.

...they have two different contexts. they are two separate promises.

As I have said, in a very limited sense, I agree with this, but in the larger context, the greater is the ultimate fulfillment of the lesser, or more correctly, the lesser fulfillment, which has already taken place (in Abraham's day) points to the greater fulfillment, which is yet to come, and will, when Jesus returns.

that is the context... again, You have context all out of whack

And I say that's all you. :) Actually, I wouldn't exactly say "out of whack," but just very, very short-sighted. I fully understand that you think otherwise, but all you see (or are allowing for) is the immediate, and not the eternal. And again, this is the pattern of all Scriptural prophecy.

...of the jews. he says according to salvation. they may be jews on the outside. but if they are not inwardly circumcised. they are nothing

And how can one be inwardly circumcised, Eternally Grateful? Who makes that inward circumcision a reality?

And building on those questions, remember what Paul says in Romans 3... he poses the rhetorical questions, "Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also?"... and answers both, saying, "Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one ~ Who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith."

And then another rhetorical question: "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith?" And he answers this also: "By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."

And then continuing on to Romans 4, even invoking Abraham specifically, "What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?"... "Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised."

And regarding circumcision in particular, Paul says of all those in Christ:

• "For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh..." (Philippians 3:3)
• "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ..." (Colossians 2:11)

Gentiles are not in context.

Oh, they absolutely are. See above. The fact that you want to take them out of Paul's context has no effect on his context. :) It is what it is.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above:

You just again proved my point.

By showing it's short-sightedness? :) That would be disproving... :)

Gentiles are grafted in, but not natural branches...

You either missed my question here, or are avoiding it. What does it mean, Eternally Grateful, for something to be grafted in to something else?

...if you read the OT. everytime God said this it concerned the jews.

Ah, well, I agree, but again ~ yet again ~ we go back to Romans 2 ~ God, through Paul, right? ~ and see that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." Why do you keep denying this, Eternally Grateful? It is what it is. I get that you don't think you do, but you very clearly do, over and over and over again.

So lets take that in context and not get all fatalistic here.

LOL!!! There's the Arminian coming out of you... :)

Sorry, Gods promise to Israel was NOT SALVATION...

Oh, yes, in the larger context of the Bible, it absolutely was and is. And that promise has elements to it... in order, life (the lesser of which was made with Adam and then remade with Noah), land (the lesser made with Abraham), the law (the lesser made with Moses), and a king (the lesser made with David)... and the greater of all these promises made eternally manifest in the Person of Jesus, in Whom is the 'yes' and 'amen' of all these promises.

every time you say it is. You just show you do not understand his promise.

And I say that... really, you are like Peter, denying Christ. Now, I know you would never knowingly do such a thing, but that is the effect of what you are saying.

the same that happened to the amorite when they stopped believing?

Ah, excellent point! But remember what John says, in 1 John 2:19, that "now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." So clearly, the Ninevites (most of them anyway), as is the case with the Amorites, never really believed God in the first place, so they never had faith or were credited righteousness as Abraham was.

So according to you it is done.

Immediately speaking... in the far lesser sense... yes. But ultimately, eternally... in the far greater sense... no. I said this before several times... :)

God said eternal gift.

See above.

Has the land ceased to exist?

Nope. Wherever you are... even if you're in Antarctica or anywhere else... :) ...you're walking on a small part of it... :)

your making it that God gave it to them, so God is done with his work. when that is not true. Because etermal has not ended

No, I agree with you here; I've said this several times now...

The mosaic covenant was is to lead people to christ.

Agree... well, to show us our inability to keep God's law perfectly or anywhere close, and to show us our need for Christ, the Savior, and direct us to Him... but yes, basically, I agree...

God still has to fulfil the Davidic covenant, and he will when Jesus sits on David's throne...

Ah, yes and no. It will be fulfilled in full when Jesus returns, but it is already fulfilled in that Jesus is sitting on David's throne over Israel ~ Greater Israel ~ right now... He is seated at the God's right hand and is ~ is ~ our King, reigning from heaven, now. He is your King, Eternally Grateful, right? Not just your future King, but your King right now? He is...

And now we are getting into the true nature of God's millennium... Uh-oh. :)

do you know the different between and "I will" agreement and a dual agreement (if you do this, I will do that)?

Um, sure... but in all these "agreements," God promised to bear the consequences of failure on both parties involved ~ "If I don't do this (If I fail), I will bear the consequence," and "If you don't do that (If you fail), I will bear the consequence on your behalf." The latter came to bear, and He Himself paid the price... in the Person of Jesus, at Calvary on the Cross.

sorry, but God does not give lesser things...

Oh my. Not "lesser" in that one is less significant or less important than the other, but that lesser in that the scale is much smaller and points to the far greater reality, the infinitely greater scale.

...when he gave it to Abraham, it was precious to him

Sure.

He said I give you this land as an ETERNAL gift.

Well, I hate to break this to you, but Abraham died a long time ago... :) Abraham only saw the immediate, temporal fulfillment of, yes, the gift, and not the eternal one, just like, Eternally Grateful, Abraham only saw, in his life on earth, a very few of his descendants. :) Ultimately, though, his descendants will number as the stars of heaven, as the grains of sand on the seashore, just as God said... ;) ... an innumerable multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Was this for ever?

Or was it transcended by the Sacrifice of Christ the NT Passover Lamb?

Exodus 12
22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

yes.

he meant forever.

Israel should still, and will be, doing that when they are restored.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Continued from above:


By showing it's short-sightedness? :) That would be disproving... :)


You either missed my question here, or are avoiding it. What does it mean, Eternally Grateful, for something to be grafted in to something else?


Ah, well, I agree, but again ~ yet again ~ we go back to Romans 2 ~ God, through Paul, right? ~ and see that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." Why do you keep denying this, Eternally Grateful? It is what it is. I get that you don't think you do, but you very clearly do, over and over and over again.


LOL!!! There's the Arminian coming out of you... :)


Oh, yes, in the larger context of the Bible, it absolutely was and is. And that promise has elements to it... in order, life (the lesser of which was made with Adam and then remade with Noah), land (the lesser made with Abraham), the law (the lesser made with Moses), and a king (the lesser made with David)... and the greater of all these promises made eternally manifest in the Person of Jesus, in Whom is the 'yes' and 'amen' of all these promises.


And I say that... really, you are like Peter, denying Christ. Now, I know you would never knowingly do such a thing, but that is the effect of what you are saying.


Ah, excellent point! But remember what John says, in 1 John 2:19, that "now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." So clearly, the Ninevites (most of them anyway), as is the case with the Amorites, never really believed God in the first place, so they never had faith or were credited righteousness as Abraham was.


Immediately speaking... in the far lesser sense... yes. But ultimately, eternally... in the far greater sense... no. I said this before several times... :)


See above.


Nope. Wherever you are... even if you're in Antarctica or anywhere else... :) ...you're walking on a small part of it... :)


No, I agree with you here; I've said this several times now...


Agree... well, to show us our inability to keep God's law perfectly or anywhere close, and to show us our need for Christ, the Savior, and direct us to Him... but yes, basically, I agree...



Ah, yes and no. It will be fulfilled in full when Jesus returns, but it is already fulfilled in that Jesus is sitting on David's throne over Israel ~ Greater Israel ~ right now... He is seated at the God's right hand and is ~ is ~ our King, reigning from heaven, now. He is your King, Eternally Grateful, right? Not just your future King, but your King right now? He is...

And now we are getting into the true nature of God's millennium... Uh-oh. :)


Um, sure... but in all these "agreements," God promised to bear the consequences of failure on both parties involved ~ "If I don't do this (If I fail), I will bear the consequence," and "If you don't do that (If you fail), I will bear the consequence on your behalf." The latter came to bear, and He Himself paid the price... in the Person of Jesus, at Calvary on the Cross.


Oh my. Not "lesser" in that one is less significant or less important than the other, but that lesser in that the scale is much smaller and points to the far greater reality, the infinitely greater scale.


Sure.


Well, I hate to break this to you, but Abraham died a long time ago... :) Abraham only saw the immediate, temporal fulfillment of, yes, the gift, and not the eternal one, just like, Eternally Grateful, Abraham only saw, in his life on earth, a very few of his descendants. :) Ultimately, though, his descendants will number as the stars of heaven, as the grains of sand on the seashore, just as God said... ;) ... an innumerable multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation. :)

Grace and peace to you.

I will no longer continue

You are preaching replacement theology. and I can not agree.

the land promise had nothign to do with salvation, if it did. all physical born descendents of Abraham Isacc and Jacob would be saved by birth, that is not true..thats why the covenant between God and abraham concerning this one gift was not fulfilled with Christ, and is still in effect today

Israel will repent (the OT prophets say they will numerous times, as does Paul)

when they do. God will remember the land, He will remember the promise. and he will restor them

you and I have no say in the manner, if God says it, it is so..

I can not agree with you. and to continue will get us no where

 

[covenantee]

yes.

he meant forever.

Israel should still, and will be, doing that when they are restored.

Why did they stop, if God said it was for ever?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why did they stop, if God said it was for ever?

He said the land was theirs forever.

That is a fact

he told them in lev 26 what would happen if they do not obey him.. But even when they were cast out. He said the land was still thers. and if they repent he will restor them.

God did not tewll abraham Isaac or Jacob I give you this land as long as you do this. It was not a dual coevant, it was an I will covenant. In fact Abraham was put to sleep when God walked and confirmed the covenant.. (gen 15)

of course if you were a true covenant person who understand them, you would understand this.

 

[PinSeeker]

I will no longer continue

Very well.

You are preaching replacement theology

Absolutely not. What is "replaced," Eternally Grateful? Nothing. Absolutely nothing is replaced.

the land promise had nothing to do with salvation

I agreed, that in and of itself, it did not and does not. But it is one of the outward results of God's deliverance.

if it did. all physical born descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob would be saved by birth, that is not true.

Well, no, I agree, that's not true. I'm not sure how you even make that connection, but I agree.

Although... :) ... Paul does use Jacob (and Esau) in his narrative:

"...though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" (Romans 9:11-13)​

This does relate with regard to all who are and are not elect of God, that in the eternal sense, God's elect are

"...chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before God, and thus are predestined for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will... In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory, and in Him we also, when we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:4-14)​

So, really, it was already a certainty long before the lesser became a reality and even now long (or maybe not so long) before the greater becomes a reality. :) Absolutely magnificent, no?

Or is that "fatalist" to you?

still in effect today...

I have agreed with this time and time again, but you keep insinuating that I disagree, which is just silly. :)

Israel will repent (the OT prophets say they will numerous times, as does Paul)

But not all of ethnic Israel, because, yet again, as Paul says, not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring. As I said before regarding what Paul says in Romans 11:28, God absolutely does promise that He will never cast off the Jews as a whole (again, Leviticus 26:44). He will save some number of them ~ maybe most; we don't know the percentage ~ so we can certainly speak of the salvation of Israel, even if not every single Jew who has ever lived will be saved, even if if not every single Jew who has ever lived, in view of Romans 9:6, will be members of the Israel of God. Yes, He will not go back on His Word (Romans 11:29).

when they do. God will remember the land, He will remember the promise. and he will restore them

Yes, all of us. :)

...if God says it, it is so..

Absolutely.

I can not agree with you...

Yes... unfortunate. But, that's okay. Neither one of us is somehow "less Christian" or "less saved" than the other... :)

...to continue will get us no where

Well, that may or may not be true. If the Spirit moves, then, that would get us somewhere for sure... :) But I'm okay with resting my case... :)

Grace and peace to you, Eternally Grateful.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul; knew it, its why he wrote romans 9 - 11. Interpret that correctly and you will see

I know that you don't interpret Romans 9-11 correctly. If you did, you would agree with me.

except when it comes to Israel?

Don't put words in my mouth. Israelite believers will be given tremendous rewards even beyond what they thought God was originally promising them. They will be rewarded with inheriting eternal life in the entire new heavens and new earth. It just so happens that Gentile believers are "fellowheirs" with them (Ephesians 3:1-6), which you have a problem with for some reason.

They (israel) are enemies.. because they are blinded.

They were not all blinded, so don't act like they were. Are you reading my posts or not? Did you read the following or not?

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The election (the remnant saved according to the election of grace) are not enemies. That is ludicrous. No, it was "the rest" who "were blinded" that were the enemies for the Gentiles' sakes.

the nation today is blinded. although yes, through grace some have come to God as I have said.l I have some in my church.

Don't say the nation is blinded when some are saved. It comes across that you're saying the entire nation is blinded.That's an insult to those who are saved.

You have no authority to dictate what promises God keeps and what promises he does not

Yes, I do. He keeps all of them. I am certain of that.

When God says he will. He does. and continues.

I believe that, You evidently do not.

You evidently are a liar. I believe God keeps all of His promises. You can't say that isn't true just because my understanding of some of His promises differ from yours. He will keep all of His promises regardless of whether you or I understand them correctly or not.

You give no true believer hope. because they must always worry, If God will not keep his promise to them, why should he keep it with me...

That's complete nonsense. You are blatantly misrepresenting my view. I believe that God will keep all of His promises which are not dependent on whether or not you or I understand them correctly. He will keep them all regardless.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He said the land was theirs forever.

That is a fact

he told them in lev 26 what would happen if they do not obey him.. But even when they were cast out. He said the land was still thers. and if they repent he will restor them.

God did not tewll abraham Isaac or Jacob I give you this land as long as you do this. It was not a dual coevant, it was an I will covenant. In fact Abraham was put to sleep when God walked and confirmed the covenant.. (gen 15)

of course if you were a true covenant person who understand them, you would understand this.

How will that land survive this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[PinSeeker]

It was not a dual covenant...

Ahhhh, yes, it was. I agree with the "I will" part... But yes, God did put Abraham in a deep sleep, and what He then did was, in walking alone between the animal halves, promised to fulfill His end of the covenant as well as Abraham's, and to bear the consequences ~ to be like the animals and lay down His life ~ if either He or Abraham failed. And we know the rest of the story. Abraham ~ and all who are his offspring through Isaac, the child of the promise, which includes all His elect ~ failed miserably. As Paul says in Romans 3, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. So God, in the Person of Christ Jesus, laid down His life. For us! "He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Philippians 2). Truly magnificent!

of course if you were a true covenant person who understand them, you would understand this.

Ah, well that's just it... We understand the covenant nature of Scripture (one story from beginning to end), as opposed to any sort of dispensational nature (a series of "do-overs"). :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No offense intended, EG, but this is ridiculous, a totally false accusation. The disagreement is not at all whether or not God will keep His promises, or even that He will keep His promises to Israel. Really, as it pertains to the dispensational view of things and who made up Israel before the coming of Christ, God already kept His promise to Israel long, long ago ~ when God actually led Abraham into and gave him the Promised Land, just as:

* the covenant God made with Moses was initially fulfilled when He gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Sinai

* the covenant God made with David was initially fulfilled when God made David king over Israel

What still remains in all these cases is the ultimate fulfillment of all these promises, what the lesser promises to lesser Israel point to and foreshadow, the greater promises to Greater Israel, the Israel of God. And, as I have said many times, all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:20), Who said, as I have pointed out, "The meek shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5). In so doing, He was not in any way "nullifying" the land promise that was made to Abraham, but rather clarifying what the land promise really is and how far reaching it really is... in the same manner as all His "But I tell you" statements about different aspects of the law, like adultery, murder, and the like.

Grace and peace to you.

I like the point you made at the end here. As you pointed out, Jesus indicated that the meek will inherit the earth. That includes meek Jews. So, it was as though Jesus was saying "You have heard that Jewish believers will inherit the promised land, but I tell you that they will inherit much more than just that because they will inherit the entire earth.". And, of course, Gentile believers will inherit the earth with them since they are "fellowheirs" (Eph 3:1-6) with Jewish believers.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I know that you don't interpret Romans 9-11 correctly. If you did, you would agree with me.

If anyone else wanted to see this mans pride. Here it is for all to see.

If I don;t agree with him, I am lost..